Power quality for speakers

wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Sonic Holigraphy is definitely going to change the sound, because it is intended to do so. The amp you mentioned is also going to sound different because it is not a traditional design. That amplifier, the TFM 35, is intended to imitate upper end tube like sound, it will also sound different from your Bryston.:D
Hehe
Good point , you do your homework , remember all i said was the 2 sound different . The hologram makes ( when the speakers are setup properly ) much easier to hear the diffences in all my amps and makes the sound stage so transparent ( you really cant tell where the speakers are placed ) .
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
Why not? That is a great reason to get one:D
Yeh
I agree , test drive a few ( go to dealers that have a money back if not satisfied ) , do your research and see what you like ( if you spare the $ )
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Sonic Holigraphy is definitely going to change the sound, because it is intended to do so. The amp you mentioned is also going to sound different because it is not a traditional design. That amplifier, the TFM 35, is intended to imitate upper end tube like sound, it will also sound different from your Bryston.:D
I have heard a Carver with Sonic Holography before. It was a pleasant effect, but added audible hiss to the signal, not unlike AM radio static.
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
In auditioning hi-end speakers, on two seperate occasions I've been told that I should upgrade my receiver first due to the auditioned speakers requiring a more quality power supply to really perform to their full potential.

In everyone's opinion, do these recommendations have merit for modest HT setups. The speakers that arose these comments were the Paradigm Studio 20's and MA RS series at one store and the JMLab Chrous 706s and 707s at the other shop. Both of these were run through an ultra high end preamp/amplifier seperates and they conveniently didn't have them readily wired to a standard receiver to demo.


Thanks,
Jake
Jake I have not read the whole thread in detail do to time limitations, but I have owned a pair of Paradigm Studio 20s
for six years and have powered them with low end receivers to my current receiver, Denon 3806, with no noticible difference in the sound.

Nick
 
T

TinleyJake

Enthusiast
Thanks for the feedback. My original conclusion seems to be correct that they were trying to sell me on additional electronics.

I deal with salesmen every day and I know it's their job to sell sell sell but this soured me to the point that I don't plan on going back to either of them. I'm preparing to purchase all new speakers, sub, and stands and these two with their actions took their shop right out of the mix.

Thanks again,
Jake
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the feedback. My original conclusion seems to be correct that they were trying to sell me on additional electronics.

I deal with salesmen every day and I know it's their job to sell sell sell but this soured me to the point that I don't plan on going back to either of them. I'm preparing to purchase all new speakers, sub, and stands and these two with their actions took their shop right out of the mix.

Thanks again,
Jake
Not the first customer with this story, yet the stores and sales people just don't get it. A chain is one thing, lots of customers walking through, a small independent with limited clientele, beyond me.:confused:
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
Not the first customer with this story, yet the stores and sales people just don't get it. A chain is one thing, lots of customers walking through, a small independent with limited clientele, beyond me.:confused:
I think this is just a normal part of the game. The same thing happened to me when I first walked in. After 3 visits and no purchases and many phone calls and emails back and forth the dealer understood and I ended up with great discounts, so maybe patience pays off.
 
ChrisJam

ChrisJam

Full Audioholic
...this soured me to the point that I don't plan on going back to either of them. I'm preparing to purchase all new speakers, sub, and stands and these two with their actions took their shop right out of the mix.
If you don't complain to the owner or manager, no one will ever know why you took your business elsewhere. If you do tell the owner or manager that you had a bad experience in that shop--assuming the salesman wasn't one of those people--that person might want your business so much that you might get an attractive discount, just to make you a happy customer.

Chris
 
T

TinleyJake

Enthusiast
If you don't complain to the owner or manager, no one will ever know why you took your business elsewhere. If you do tell the owner or manager that you had a bad experience in that shop--assuming the salesman wasn't one of those people--that person might want your business so much that you might get an attractive discount, just to make you a happy customer.

Chris
Good point. I'm going to stop by the one shop on the way home this evening and see if I can talk to the manager...hopefully it's not the sales guy or it'll be a quick visit. I'll let you know what happens. It's a 45 minute drive so that'll give me time to get to my happy place to keep myself calm.

Thanks again
Jake
 
wire

wire

Senior Audioholic
I have heard a Carver with Sonic Holography before. It was a pleasant effect, but added audible hiss to the signal, not unlike AM radio static.
The hologram needed servicing . Ive got 3 no audible hiss .
 
I

indcrimdefense

Audioholic
tinleyjake-

unfortunately one of the more difficult things in audio is finding a dealer you can trust. find speakers your interested in & try & arrange a demo so you can hear for yourself. would seperates sound better, perhaps but perhaps not. the only way to find out is to try things at home. if you can tell a difference great, if not then you just saved alot of money. from previous trial & error, if i was building a new system i would start with the speakers & them go from there. get the speakers you want, & then get some demos of seperates & find out for yourself if you can hear a difference or not. I have owned both receivers & seperates, & generally prefer seperates. however i also have heard some great sounds from a solid receiver, good source & a solid set of speakers.

if i remember correctly from your post your in chi town, if your willing to make the drive i have a dealer i can recommend in indy, feel free to email me at indcriminaldefense@yahoo.com if interested (i dont always have the time to check audioholics as much as i would like). he's as bs free as i have found & offers competitive prices from an authorized dealer.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Sorry seth but being the resident "amp heretic" that i am i couldnt pass that up.

No way Jose.........That's Hose-A:D
You should be sorry highfi! (just kidding)...:)
Seth is right, a "well designed" amp is designed to be transparent. It amplifies the input signals truthfully and should be able to drive most well designed speakers without causing them to sound different than what they are designed to do. There could be a few reasons why some amps sound different than a "well designed" amp that Seth referred to, such as (I am just guessing):

1) Amps that are designed to please people who likes certain sonic characteristics such as the tube like sound, bright sound etc............

2) Amps that just happen to work well with some not so well designed speakers that have certain not so typical electrical (e.g. impedance/frequency response etc.) characteristics.

The list could go on, but I would be guessing further and further. I don't consider any amps that cater for certain speakers characteristics "well designed", because that would be a hit and miss thing mission. Honesty is the best policy, and that applies to amps as well, just amplify the signals and let the speakers reproduce the sound.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm fairly inexperienced with hi end speakers/stereos but eagerly trying to learn on my venture in upgrading my current setup.

In auditioning hi-end speakers, on two seperate occasions I've been told that I should upgrade my receiver first due to the auditioned speakers requiring a more quality power supply to really perform to their full potential.

I have an Elite VSX-35TX that has very little milage on it which outputs 100W stereo/90W 5-channel. I'm running a 5.1 setup in a family room that is fairly small (13' x 15') and I had no thoughts of upgrading until this came about.

In everyone's opinion, do these recommendations have merit for modest HT setups. The speakers that arose these comments were the Paradigm Studio 20's and MA RS series at one store and the JMLab Chrous 706s and 707s at the other shop. Both of these were run through an ultra high end preamp/amplifier seperates and they conveniently didn't have them readily wired to a standard receiver to demo.


Thanks,
Jake
I suspect most people would not consider the speakers you listed "high end". Take the Paradign as an example, they are not high end until you get to their Signature series. Even then, I am sure many people still don't considerr them high end. I have heard the Studio 100 V3 powered by a RX-V2400 and a pair of Anthem separates. They sounded great with either system, with no audible difference.

The Elite receiver should be fine for the Studio 20. It is true that high end equipment will provide your speakers with more accurate signals, but the expected theorectical improvements may not be audible to you.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
I was once a firm believer in snake oil, amplifiers that sounded different, and other nonsense. Now I believe that an amplifier that is well designed will deliver the same quality of sound while operating within it's comfortable power ratings.
Seth,your still in school so hopefully your studies will procuce a big money carrer:D & if you get to the point later on where you have more play money try this,as if i didnt allready know that if you end up with a big money carrer you will spend the bulk of it on electronics,your hooked:D

Set yourself up a simple 2 channel system,nothing fancy just simple 2 channel,preamp,amp,cd player & full range speakers,no subwoofer,Listen to music only on this system for 6 months to become familar with how it sounds with every type of music you like under all listening conditions at all spl levels.

Dont move the system or speakers all over the room,dont move furniture all over the room & most importantly dont watch movies on this system.

After listening heavily to this system switch the amp with another 2 channel amp of like power & start listening again,it may take you a few days but you will notice things that sound different & not just at high spl levels.

I know you think its snake oil but you should realize that 2 channel guys listening situations are way different from the average ht listening enviroment,dont knock it till youve tried it,you might get a bit of a shock.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Seth,your still in school so hopefully your studies will procuce a big money carrer:D & if you get to the point later on where you have more play money try this,as if i didnt allready know that if you end up with a big money carrer you will spend the bulk of it on electronics,your hooked:D

Set yourself up a simple 2 channel system,nothing fancy just simple 2 channel,preamp,amp,cd player & full range speakers,no subwoofer,Listen to music only on this system for 6 months to become familar with how it sounds with every type of music you like under all listening conditions at all spl levels.

Dont move the system or speakers all over the room,dont move furniture all over the room & most importantly dont watch movies on this system.

After listening heavily to this system switch the amp with another 2 channel amp of like power & start listening again,it may take you a few days but you will notice things that sound different & not just at high spl levels.

I know you think its snake oil but you should realize that 2 channel guys listening situations are way different from the average ht listening enviroment,dont knock it till youve tried it,you might get a bit of a shock.
Don't you think it would be best to have a proposed system and use if for a determined amount of time and then AB with a different amplifier? I have owned power amplifiers before, and I know there are benefits. The benefits aren't different acoustic characteristics however. I have been AB'ing my Fisher integrated amp and the Yamaha HTR-5890 for the past couple days and I gotta say the sound nearly identical with a slight edge(meaning sounds better, not bright or edgy:D) to the Yamaha (it is newer and I would expect it to perform better as it is not 30 years old).

I will likely do AB testing with more expensive components in the future.

By the way, I don't think it is snake oil. Better amplifiers offer audible benefits in certain scenarios, snake oil category garbage does not make an audible difference.:D

I want it known I am not trying to bite anyone's heads off, this conversation will remain civil from my end. Kudos to you Levi, you keep your cool and that is very admirable.:)
 
no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
Speaking of amplifiers having a sound, Out of curiosity I just looked up a few amplifiers to find the tolerance in the frequency responses; the best was a $4,900 Classé CAP-2100 integrated amplifier with +/- 0.1dB, the rest of them were around +/- 3dB, mind you, the few amplifiers I looked at were in the $1,300 to $10,000 range (interestingly, a $300 Crown pro amplifier’s tolerance is +0dB -0.8dB :cool: ).

My point is that; yes as many have pointed out, any well made amp will sound transparent or at lest mostly transparent (as Seth pointed out, ABing his Fisher and Yamaha), but there is room in a amplifier’s specifications to allow for some degree of deference in sound from one amplifier to another.

I'm guessing a few people already knew that, but I found it interesting. :)
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Speaking of amplifiers having a sound, Out of curiosity I just looked up a few amplifiers to find the tolerance in the frequency responses; the best was a $4,900 Classé CAP-2100 integrated amplifier with +/- 0.1dB, the rest of them were around +/- 3dB, mind you, the few amplifiers I looked at were in the $1,300 to $10,000 range (interestingly, a $300 Crown pro amplifier’s tolerance is +0dB -0.8dB :cool: ).

My point is that; yes as many have pointed out, any well made amp will sound transparent or at lest mostly transparent (as Seth pointed out, ABing his Fisher and Yamaha), but there is room in a amplifier’s specifications to allow for some degree of deference in sound from one amplifier to another.

I'm guessing a few people already knew that, but I found it interesting. :)
I really enjoy these discusions, unless they turn into flame wars or they go all technical like my "Why Bi-wiring makes no sense" thread. That thread went way to deep for but a few members to understand, and even our moderators!:eek:
 
no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
I really enjoy these discusions, unless they turn into flame wars or they go all technical like my "Why Bi-wiring makes no sense" thread. That thread went way to deep for but a few members to understand, and even our moderators!:eek:
likewise, it's nice to have a thread were knowledge and perceptions are changed... and no one must put on a fire suit. :eek:

As for your Bi-wiring thread, give yourself a pat on the back for stating something that seemed so simple (number of wires) and ended with a lot of formulas. :p
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
I will likely do AB testing with more expensive components in the future.

I want it known I am not trying to bite anyone's heads off, this conversation will remain civil from my end. Kudos to you Levi, you keep your cool and that is very admirable.:)
Hi seth,my post may not have came across to the point i was trying to make concerning how some people hear differences & others cant,im popping pain killers like anna nicole for this back injury i have so im sure i screwed my last post up from being all loopy.:p :p :p

The point i was trying to make was about listening experience with a system,,im also not equating listening experience to intelligence,im talking about a dedicated 2 channel system,in a fixed location in a dedicated listening room where nothing changes,the experience i describe only comes from having all the variables stay constant for a long time so you know every nuance of sound from the rig & know how each artist should sound on it every time you use the system.

When you have a system set up like this for long periods of time you get so used to the sound that you can tell if your wife moved a speaker a half inch,you cant pin point it right away but you hear something different,in my case i would be sitting there thinking damm,whats up with this,then i'd notice the carpet & see that she vaccumed my room,id look at the speaker placement & sure enough she moved one & did not put it back exactly.

In another case i kept thinking something was off in my room or system,i looked at everything in sight,still couldnt figure it out but i knew the sound was off,this went on for a few days until one day when i was polishing the speakers i decided to check all the drivers,all woofers sounded perfect,all mids sounded perfect,all tweeters sounded perfect,man was i pissed,then i remembered an old trick for checking tweeters.

I took a styrafoam cup & cut the bottom out of it,put one side to my ear & the other side to a tweeter,i went through most of the tweeters in the array until i hit one that had no sound,walla:eek: i found it :) ,with my line array's having a total of 46 tweeters in them i could hear the 1 bad tweeter,not from being golden eared but from being so accustomed to the sound from the system.

I have also on several occasions used 2 amplifiers set up on an a/b switcher hooked direct to the cd player with a spectrum analizer mic'ed in my listening position,when switching between the 2 amps differences in sound will show up on the screen.

Reasons like this are why i have always atributied hearing differences in amps to dedicated 2 channel systems with no sub.

Im also not saying that HT sucks but i do say that hearing differences in amps in ht are harder for many reasons,most pepole have powered subs meaning only the easiest part of the signal is being ran from the main amp,also sound is comming from every where,mains in front,rears behind the head & a sub in the corner,lots of stuff going on at once.

Even if a guy shuts down the surround,subwoofer,sets xover to full range & only runs his mains this is not the sound he is accustomed to so differences in the 2 amps are harder to hear.

Expense of the amps has little to do with hearing differences either,i want to be clear that nobody needs to buy a krell or a mac to hear a difference,if your 2 channel rig is set up long enough you can use a behringer a500 against a $300 qsc amp.

Of all the reasons i listed as being why i can hear differences in amps most other people who also hear differences would agree that most of these factors are important in discovering differences.

Also keep in mind that everything i just said could be the result of the morphine working its magic:D
 
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