POWER CABLE

[witchdoctor]

To the stock power cord fan club, I eagerly await YOUR reviews of power cords you have actually auditioned.
Here is a resource, they will let you audition pretty much every cable that is out there:
http://www.thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777

 

[witchdoctor]

Why doesn't Sandy Gross use stock power cables?
Best Systems of CES 2015

GoldenEar Technology’s Sandy Gross flagged down our team in the hallway on setup day, before CES opened, to ask if we’d like to hear his company’s new Triton Five speakers, which he’d just finished dialing in. He was powering the Fives with a pair of Pass Labs XA-100.5 amps, in turn driven by a PS Audio PerfectWave transport and DirectStream DAC. Speaker cables and interconnects were from AudioQuest, power cables from Pangea.

 

[markw]

Freebies donated for free publicity.

 

[witchdoctor]

Here, Panagea's are under $100, you get a 30 day audition. Please try it and let us know that you actually have some EXPERIENCE with something besides a stock power cable.
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PGAC14S2

BTW, Sandy sells speakers not cables. He just has good taste!

 

[Cos]

Why doesn't Sandy Gross use stock power cables?
Best Systems of CES 2015

GoldenEar Technology’s Sandy Gross flagged down our team in the hallway on setup day, before CES opened, to ask if we’d like to hear his company’s new Triton Five speakers, which he’d just finished dialing in. He was powering the Fives with a pair of Pass Labs XA-100.5 amps, in turn driven by a PS Audio PerfectWave transport and DirectStream DAC. Speaker cables and interconnects were from AudioQuest, power cables from Pangea.

Two things as a Big Supporter of Sandy Gross's speakers
1. He must only have one sport coat he has worn that in almost every picture and when I met him in person (Good Taste does not transfer over to clothing ) Though I am sure he has gobs of money better spent.

2. Unless Sandy is willing to provide proof in measurement that there is a noticeable sonic difference between power cables, it doesn't mean much to me.

I am not even going to dispute there is a sonic difference between power cables, because I personally haven't tested them, nor do I have the gear to measure the differences, but until someone does I sure as heck am not going to open my wallet to pay extra expense when I can use that money in other places that do have an impact on sound quality, like room treatments, etc.

 

[slipperybidness]

To the stock power cord fan club, I eagerly await YOUR reviews of power cords you have actually auditioned.
Here is a resource, they will let you audition pretty much every cable that is out there:
http://www.thecableco.com/content.aspx?iid=5777

I feel like I'm beating a dead TROLL, but what the heck, I'll give 1 last reply / blow before ignoring said troll.

It is completely 100% absurd to suggest that 3 feet of fancy Pangea or any other power cable could possibly make any audible IMPROVEMENT over a stock cable (assuming that the stock cable is of proper AWG for the task and is of decent construction). Sure, it COULD sound DIFFERENT, but not IMPROVED as far as carrying an electrical signal is concerned. It's physics, and the laws of physics are pretty tough to bend or break

If you have a modern home, the wires from your power panel to your wall outlet are almost certainly run-of-the-mill Romex, probably 50 feet or more. So, for anyone that has a lick of sense, it would be obvious that you would also need to change out the Romex to the fancy wires to even maybe think about an improvement. Why stop there? Fancy wires back to the sub-station and back to the turbine, if you really want that audio nirvana that you have been missing.

Next, what wires do you think are on the other end, internal to the AV gear? I can promise you that the windings on that power transformer are nothing fancy.....you better go ahead and re-wire the primaries of your power transformer with that fancy wire. The funny thing is, the primaries and the power cord aren't even part of the circuit!!! Seriously, the primaries simply throw off the EM field that is picked up by the secondaries!

But wait, the secondaries on the power transformer are also plain Jane wires. Dang, now you need to re-wire all the coils on your PT---I sure hope you have a torroid and not an EI (good luck rewiring that).

After the PT, you hit the rectifier diodes, then the caps, and at that point you are talking about PCB traces and you ain't re-wiring those. Hmmm. caps....FILTER caps.....I wonder what those do?

Here's an idea for the witchdoctor: Spend your $ on measurement gear instead of wasting it on fancy cables, then you could measure the difference (that doesn't exist).

When witchdoctor or anyone else claims these "night and day" differences between cables, they are 100% human biased and fooling themselves with this bias. Plain and simple.

I use that same rationale on myself: I am human, I am biased, I don't hear any difference between plain jane and fancy cables. I don't have to listen because there are absolutely no measurement differences and absolutely no improvements to be had. If I wanted to remove my bias, we would have to be talking about DBT.

I don't care about this enough for DBT. My time and my $ are more valuable to me than to try to change the mind of a biased troll.

However, I would hope that newbies looking for advice and honest improvements will see the logic presented here and spend their $ wisely!

 

[highfigh]

Why doesn't Sandy Gross use stock power cables?
Best Systems of CES 2015

GoldenEar Technology’s Sandy Gross flagged down our team in the hallway on setup day, before CES opened, to ask if we’d like to hear his company’s new Triton Five speakers, which he’d just finished dialing in. He was powering the Fives with a pair of Pass Labs XA-100.5 amps, in turn driven by a PS Audio PerfectWave transport and DirectStream DAC. Speaker cables and interconnects were from AudioQuest, power cables from Pangea.

I wonder if any of those companies used Golden Ear speakers in their demo room. Hmmm. Maybe the people from those companies are friends. I mean, if someone uses those components in their display, they MUST be good, right?

People at audio shows go around and ask others if they'll use a product all the time. It doesn't mean they think those products are better or are preferred, it often means they're willing to do favors for each other.

Spending big dollars on things like power cords, speaker cable stands, cables with batteries on them and $400 wooden bases with brass chunks completely ignores the fact that some recordings aren't good enough to sound great.

 

[Ampdog]

Well, can only add that I am relieved to feel at home here. Like others I also have the limitation of engineering training. Also like others I am still waiting for any other evidence than anecdotal regarding burn-in, molecules shaking their feathers to look better, miraculous filtering abilities of a few meters of cable in series with kilometers of power lines, aligning this and aligning that so as to make the upper middle tones sound better .... in fact, any sort of remotely physics-based attempt to explain how a simple length of power cord can achieve anything else than feeding 50 or 60 Hz line voltage and current to my amplifier. I am required to keep an open mind, but not so open that logic and confirmed knowledge can evaporate.

My parents spent dearly for my tuition and I only intend to replace/improve that by something of equal value. Thus far none appeared (and I have been 'at it' for over 60 years).

 

[witchdoctor]

To the stock power cord fan club, there is still no scientific equipment on the planet that can equal two ears and brain ( I actually didn't make that up, Floyd Toole said that).
I eagerly await your review of of an after market power cord you have actually auditioned.
I have posted based on my experience and the experience of other third parties. I have provided links for you to actually LISTEN to something other than those dreadful stock cords.
When you have some relevant experience I would like to hear about it, good or bad. Thank you.

 

[highfigh]

Now, they're 'dreadful'?

Have you replaced your receptacles with something that increases the contact area? If not, you and all of the others who claim the large improvements caused by power cords are chasing your tails.

 

[witchdoctor]

Yes, I use this one:
http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Ultra-Minimalist-Duplex-AC-Outlet/productinfo/ACOUTLET-CL/

 

[slipperybidness]

To the stock power cord fan club, there is still no scientific equipment on the planet that can equal two ears and brain ( I actually didn't make that up, Floyd Toole said that).
I eagerly await your review of of an after market power cord you have actually auditioned.
I have posted based on my experience and the experience of other third parties. I have provided links for you to actually LISTEN to something other than those dreadful stock cords.
When you have some relevant experience I would like to hear about it, good or bad. Thank you.

Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad

You have 1 argument--"Go listen for yourself".

My time is too valuable for me to chase a fool's errand.

Instead of repeating your 1 poor argument, how about you go back and review post #26 and then come back and re-post counter-arguments that make your point? Can you possibly come up with a logical counter argument for each and every logical point that I made in that post?

Very Unlikely

If you could, then you would have already done it. It's tough to argue with sound scientific reasoning, no?

 

[highfigh]

"A good-sounding AC wall outlet can be one of the biggest bang-for-the-buck upgrades in audio. Compared to the most highly touted $200+ outlets, our AC outlet reduces the plastic insulator mass by a factor of three, reduces contact strip thickness by two, eliminates all plating, and breaks new ground with two features. Our outlet casings are made from a far better sounding polymer than the high-loss, glass-filled nylon used by all the big bucks outlets. And--our Amish-made Ambrosian maple faceplate eliminates the high dielectric absorption losses of plastic faceplates, as well as the high eddy current losses of metal ones."

is the biggest load I have read in a long time. And once again, the Amish did the woodworking. I have no problem with the Amish doing anything, I have a problem with ANYONE who uses that reference to make people think their product is better. Also, it's 'Ambrosia' Maple.

"Far better sounding polymer"- it's not in the signal path.

"reduces contact strip thickness by two, eliminates all plating, and breaks new ground with two features."- reducing the contact strip thickness also reduces its ability to withstand heat without deformation and eliminating all plating makes corrosion likely. There's very little contact area in a receptacle- this looks like a common panel-mount single receptacle and their photos don't show the back, so it's hard to say what it is.

Do you know what a placebo is?

 

[highfigh]

 

[Steve81]

To the stock power cord fan club, there is still no scientific equipment on the planet that can equal two ears and brain ( I actually didn't make that up, Floyd Toole said that).

Unfortunately context matters a great deal here. There can be a gap between measuring a loudspeaker and subjective observations of a listener. Dr. Toole himself has done a great deal to correlate measurements with subjective impressions, but we don't know everything.

A power cord is an altogether different animal; it is simply an extension of the Romex in your wall to the power supply of your amplifier and other assorted devices. It's job is to pass 120V/60Hz AC and supply enough current to feed your device. It's a relatively simple job, and one that's readily measured to ensure that it's done properly.

As far as the veracity of measurements themselves, I'll borrow a quote from Paul Klipsch:
"You can't make what you can't measure because you don't know when you've got it made."

Why doesn't Sandy Gross use stock power cables?
Best Systems of CES 2015...

Having been to a couple shows and spoken at length with a few vendors...
a. the cable vendors share in the cost of a room
b. high end cables usually look nice
c. high end cables are useful for folks like yourself that believe they make a difference

 

[Swerd]

… there is still no scientific equipment on the planet that can equal two ears and brain ( I actually didn't make that up, Floyd Toole said that).

Rather than passively clicking a button to disapprove of your comment, I'll tell you more directly.

It's dumb to misapply Floyd Toole's statement.

You imply that he supports the idea that instrument measurements are trumped by listeners reactions. He never made any such statement about electric power cords, speaker cables, or anything other than loudspeakers.

Instead, he is well known for making good measurements of loudspeakers and correlating them with listeners reactions. In addition, he is well known for clearly establishing that listeners are definitely influenced by the visible features of speakers, such as size, identity, and cost. When these features are hidden, listeners instead heavily prefer speakers with flat frequency response, and widely dispersed sound.

It's one thing to be a rather boring troll, as you have been so far. But do not insult our intelligence.

 

[highfigh]

Rather than passively clicking a button to disapprove of your comment, I'll tell you more directly.

It's dumb to misapply Floyd Toole's statement.

You imply that he supports the idea that instrument measurements are trumped by listeners reactions. He never made any such statement about electric power cords, speaker cables, or anything other than loudspeakers.

Instead, he is well known for making good measurements of loudspeakers and correlating them with listeners reactions. In addition, he is well known for clearly establishing that listeners are definitely influenced by the visible features of speakers, such as size, identity, and cost. When these features are hidden, listeners instead heavily prefer speakers with flat frequency response, and widely dispersed sound.

It's one thing to be a rather boring troll, as you have been so far. But do not insult our intelligence.

IIRC, it was in 'Audio Critic', where Dr. Toole writes about speaker wire and at the end, he says "Who am I to tell others how to spend their money?".

 

[Swerd]

IIRC, it was in 'Audio Critic', where Dr. Toole writes about speaker wire and at the end, he says "Who am I to tell others how to spend their money?".

Thanks.

Both The Audio Critic and Dr. Toole had similar opinions about what matters in audio, and both may have shared similar opinions about the foolish beliefs common to the audio world. Toole may have been less caustic with his words than the Audio Critic editor. My favorite quote from Toole is:

“Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated by subjective testing is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds of human perception, such as wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to hide the identity of what is being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and people, who are otherwise serious, persist in the belief that they are immune to the influence of such factors as price, size, brand name, etc. In some of these so-called great debate issues, such as whether amplifiers, wires, and the like have an audible effect, there are those who claim that disguising a product’s identity actually prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. That debate shows no signs of slowing down.” Floyd E. Toole​

 

[slipperybidness]

IIRC, it was in 'Audio Critic', where Dr. Toole writes about speaker wire and at the end, he says "Who am I to tell others how to spend their money?".

Like I said before, if witchdoctor or anyone else is happy spending their $ on fancy cables, then that is their decision and I'm fine with that.

However, I feel sorry for a noob that doesn't know any better and believes the poor advice about fancy cables!

That is the real travesty here, spreading false information to gullible noobs and having them waste their money on useless items instead of on places GUARANTEED to give you improvements (ie better speakers, room treatments, measurement gear to tweak the setup, etc WILL be worth the $ without a doubt).

Then, the noob gets a bad taste in their mouth from accepting poor advice and decides that the audio hobby isn't for them after all.

Luckily, we have AH to spread the truth!

 

[witchdoctor]

Guys, these vendors offer a No Risk 30 Day audition

What part of No Risk don't you understand?

I look forward to your audition results in the Cable and Power Conditioner forum.