Phase Technology dARTS... Phenominal

[Tomorrow]

What's all the controversy? Here's what I got out of the original post.



The OP expressed excitement, announced his intentions, suggested others do their own research and asked for feedback. He wasn't publishing a review. I certainly don't want to have to perform a double-blind, clinically certified accurate to within x-percent with charts, graphs and expert testimonial to validate my A/B/X methodology test just to tell somebody that I'm excited about something.

And no one asked him to.

 

[Nick250]

. And you're on here giving people advice?

Yup, and the feeling is mutual.

 

[stratman]

Hey it sounds like someone woke up on the wrong side of the rock . In The Industry, it's not a personal attack on you, most of us were perplexed at your engrossing enthusiasm about a product which we know little or nothing about , yet being touted as the last glass of water in the desert, so the guys, being the fair minded fellows they are, just wanted you to make clear some points that you were stating, that's all. No need to get your shorts in a knot, we're all civilized around here (we'll can't speak for myself).

 

[mtrycrafts]

Roger that...I was just assuming(which is a bad thing to do, I know) that you were attempting to discredit what he said because he didn't do an A/B/X test.

In reality, speakers are also compared under DBT protocols certainly in the research period, by good makers, and to get a true evaluation of its merits.
Speakers are not easy to compare like this unless the facility is available such as at the NRC in Canada, Harman, and probably a few more locations.

So, for an individual, like 'intheindustry' would have a difficult time comparing it to another system or, to compare it to his reference system from memory. So, others need to evaluate such impressions with careful thought to its value.

 

[Nuglets]

In reality, speakers are also compared under DBT protocols certainly in the research period, by good makers, and to get a true evaluation of its merits.
Speakers are not easy to compare like this unless the facility is available such as at the NRC in Canada, Harman, and probably a few more locations.

So, for an individual, like 'intheindustry' would have a difficult time comparing it to another system or, to compare it to his reference system from memory. So, others need to evaluate such impressions with careful thought to its value.

I realize that fact but much like others have said it's not impossible to tell the difference between speakers even when listening to them at different times. You are completely correct in that we can't perform a completely accurate comparison between different sets of speakers without data, DBT, and other testing methods but I do believe that we can get a good overall idea on what sounds good and what doesn't to us. That said, I have never had the opportunity to perform a controlled DBT, A/B/X, or take any measurements other than frequency response but I can listen to a system and tell you if I think it sounds good without a direct comparison to other speakers using the mentioned tests. I wouldn't go out and buy the dARTS system based solely on somebodies opinion but I won't ignore the opinion because the audition wasn't performed in controlled environment with no variables except changes in speakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...but I do believe that we can get a good overall idea on what sounds good and what doesn't to us.

I would bring your attention to figure 4, page 10, what bias will do:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

Hard to argue how powerful bias is.

That said, I have never had the opportunity to perform a controlled DBT, A/B/X, or take any measurements other than frequency response but I can listen to a system and tell you if I think it sounds good without a direct comparison to other speakers using the mentioned tests.

Most likely could to a point. But, as the above example, one has to be on guard.

 

[brendy]

Reading through the entire series of posts it is clear that InTheIndustry is NOT the one who woke up on the wrong side of the rock.

 

[InTheIndustry]

...but I do believe that we can get a good overall idea on what sounds good and what doesn't to us.

I would bring your attention to figure 4, page 10, what bias will do:

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/AudioScience.pdf

Hard to argue how powerful bias is.

That said, I have never had the opportunity to perform a controlled DBT, A/B/X, or take any measurements other than frequency response but I can listen to a system and tell you if I think it sounds good without a direct comparison to other speakers using the mentioned tests.

[

I see how this could relate to end-user consumers or engineers who build and design product.

However, this does not make sense in relationship to me listening to the dARTS system and proclaiming that it, in my opinion, is the best system available for home theater purposes. It also doesn't make sense on a few other levels as well, but we can discuss that in another thread should someone want to start one.

Why doesn't the example shown by MtryCrafts work for my experience? A few reasons:

1. I went to the listen session completely neutral (like I do all demos). I auditioned it for different reasons than someone who would care about "on sight" bias.

2. Compared to the other complete systems from brands like JBL Synthesis, Meridian, etc. dARTS starts with several strikes against it from a dealer’s perspective:

A: It's extremely inexpensive for what it's competing against. This is bad because margin on most audio product is the same regardless of brand in terms of % of profit to MSRP. Meaning, you make the same % on a $40K rig as you do a $20K rig. Since it's essentially the same amount of work to wire and install either system, which would most dealers rather sell? And don't say the $20K product because of volume. I could sell the $40K half as many times and not have my labor tied up twice as much which would actually work out better in a business model.

B: As far as I'm concerned darts is nowhere near as stylized as the JBL or Meridian product that's out there. Yes, the "in-room" version of the product as attractive looking, but "in-wall" and "behind-wall" are going make up most of the installs on these.
Looks are moot to me on product such as this and I went into the listening session with ZERO bias. The reason I don’t care about “reason A” above? Our company is dedicated to continuous improvement in providing clients with the best experience possible. If we keep what’s best for them in the forefront of our choices, what’s best for us will always follow. I firmly believe in that.

I will be answering the questions that other people have asked in this thread later this weekend and by no means ignoring them. I just have several projects going on right now that need attention.

By the way, thank you for all of the support from forum members. I appreciate not being the single voice on what seems to be a controversial topic. Believe it or not, I also appreciate the detractors chiming in as well. Enjoy your weekends!

 

[Nuglets]

Reading through the entire series of posts it is clear that InTheIndustry is NOT the one who woke up on the wrong side of the rock.

Maybe you shouldn't read the post and create a picture in your head of somebody losing their cool and getting angry. Just because there aren't smiley faces all over the place doesn't mean that anybody is angry. Nobody has said anything that would imply that they have awaken on the "wrong side of the rock" as you say nor have there been any offensive comments made. If you can't handle an argument, a civilized one at that, I don't think an internet forum is the right place for you. Here's some smiley faces so you can picture me saying this while laughing and having a good time.

 

[Nuglets]

Hard to argue how powerful bias is.

Most likely could to a point. But, as the above example, one has to be on guard.

I can't argue that bias isn't powerful but in my opinion you can't take all credibility away from somebody because they don't have the opportunity to do all kinds of scientific experiments when giving a review and opinion.

I completely agree that one has to be objective in this hobby, but to discredit an opinion because the audition wasn't done with scientific precision is a bit extreme in my opinion.

Let me ask you this...do you perform every one of these tests with every speaker that you audition and form an opinion about? If so, I envy you because you must have a lot of real nice equipment and loads of spare time on your hands as well as many people who are willing to devote their time to helping you pick out speakers while eliminating all possible biasing.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I can't argue that bias isn't powerful but in my opinion you can't take all credibility away from somebody because they don't have the opportunity to do all kinds of scientific experiments when giving a review and opinion.

I completely agree that one has to be objective in this hobby, but to discredit an opinion because the audition wasn't done with scientific precision is a bit extreme in my opinion.

Let me ask you this...do you perform every one of these tests with every speaker that you audition and form an opinion about? If so, I envy you because you must have a lot of real nice equipment and loads of spare time on your hands as well as many people who are willing to devote their time to helping you pick out speakers while eliminating all possible biasing.

I would find one that I'd like the sound of and would fit my needs otherwise.
But, I would not agonize nor claim wondrous things for them, only that I like them

 

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for your explanation and further input.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Impressive capability

Active crossover and amping on each driver.
EQ to different seating positions.
Impressive capability.

 

[annunaki]

I have since auditioned the dARTS at a local retailer. I have to confirm that is is one excellent sounding system. The dynamic capability is just superb. The fullness of sound is tremendous. It has been the first time I have truly felt "immersed" in a surround system. What was really impressive is that at extreme levels there is not a single hint of strain or breakup. I kept waiting to hear the subwoofers reach their limits but, amazingly, they did not seem to have any (in terms of output). With 12" subs they could have been able to go lower though I am sure. Throughout the audible range though the system is wonderful.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I have since auditioned the dARTS at a local retailer. I have to confirm that is is one excellent sounding system. The dynamic capability is just superb. The fullness of sound is tremendous. It has been the first time I have truly felt "immersed" in a surround system. What was really impressive is that at extreme levels there is not a single hint of strain or breakup. I kept waiting to hear the subwoofers reach their limits but, amazingly, they did not seem to have any (in terms of output). With 12" subs they could have been able to go lower though I am sure. Throughout the audible range though the system is wonderful.

Thanks a ton for being so open minded and trying it out! There are several versions & configurations of the system. Do you recall which one you heard? The reason I am asking is because there are multiple subwoofer options depending on the cubic feet in the room. A 12" with dual 10" passive radiators is available as are dual 10" versions.

I'm glad you liked it and am excited to feature the dARTS sytem in our show room when it is finished.

Last question: What demo material did you listen to?

Thanks, in advance!

 

[annunaki]

I listened to the dual 10" sub woofers, two of them. Also it was the "boxed" system. I litened to the opening sequence of the movie "Cars", which was most impressive, as well as a couple of tracks from an Elvis CD. I did not choose the Demo material.