Parasound Volume Pot part two

RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
Well that is one way of solving a problem, to deep six it!

However I think Parasound should be more forthcoming about this.

In a way this highlights a prevalent general industry wide problem and not just electronics.

It is all well and good to say that Parasound are great guys as they support their customer, and service the units no questions asked. However this is not as great as it seems. Their five year warranty is not transferable to a new owner. So how is the new owner supported or the original owner when the clock runs out on the warranty?

Manufacturers should be forced to make service manuals readily available. There is not service manual that I can find for this unit. This therefore creates a problem in that it lowers the value of the unit and deprives all owners ultimately of access to repair apart from the manufacturer. Worse in repair of units running on software courts have ruled unauthorized service a breach of copyright.

All owners should have the right to not only self repair, but also have service performed by a tech of their choosing.

That is why we should ALL get behind right to repair legislation.

As far as I'm concerned Parasound are NOT nice guys.

I have said before, and I will say it again now. It would be in Parasound's interest to release the circuit and service manual. If they had there is every likely hood someone would have solved their problem for them by now.
Many AV manufacturers include non-transferrable warranties which I find repugnant.
Can you imagine a car manufacturer doing that?
Either you stand by your product or you don't.

This is one of the reasons, I now own ATI amps.

- Rich
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Many AV manufacturers include non-transferrable warranties which I find repugnant.
I believe there tend to be two reasons for this.

First is to ensure there is value add from a dealer sale and control over the supply chain. You do not want people buying from unauthorized dealers who may provide incorrect information, not represent your product the way you want, or who are not bound to any sort of sales agreement. You can still do this with transferrable warranties if the product was originally purchased from a dealer, but it changes the price expectation from the customer. In other words, buying brand new from a dealer for $X versus slightly new/used for $Y when the warranty is transferrable may make it so dealers have to discount closer to $Y. And then the dealer maybe isn't as interested in carrying your product anymore. The only dealers you have left are bigger ones who are not really going to do justice to your product.

The other reason is because the dealer is properly trained to setup and calibrate the product. Turntables and phono stages which if done wrong can cause damage or be damaged. Newer streaming products that are kind of complicated. Also, in many cases the manufacturer cannot afford to provide support except through the trained dealer who is making the sale, unless they charge much more for the product (for example, if you call customer support once for mass market product purchased at Best Buy, the manufacturer has now lost money on the sale). Which changes the sales dynamic because people then complain the product is overpriced. Etc.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I believe there tend to be two reasons for this.

First is to ensure there is value add from a dealer sale and control over the supply chain. You do not want people buying from unauthorized dealers who may provide incorrect information, not represent your product the way you want, or who are not bound to any sort of sales agreement. You can still do this with transferrable warranties if the product was originally purchased from a dealer, but it changes the price expectation from the customer. In other words, buying brand new from a dealer for $X versus slightly new/used for $Y when the warranty is transferrable may make it so dealers have to discount closer to $Y. And then the dealer maybe isn't as interested in carrying your product anymore. The only dealers you have left are bigger ones who are not really going to do justice to your product.

The other reason is because the dealer is properly trained to setup and calibrate the product. Turntables and phono stages which if done wrong can cause damage or be damaged. Newer streaming products that are kind of complicated. Also, in many cases the manufacturer cannot afford to provide support except through the trained dealer who is making the sale, unless they charge much more for the product (for example, if you call customer support once for mass market product purchased at Best Buy, the manufacturer has now lost money on the sale). Which changes the sales dynamic because people then complain the product is overpriced. Etc.
Sorry, but that is a load of bunk.

First off brick and mortar dealers tend to be the biggest twerps around, overselling their customers useless junk and "funny wire." Manufacturers these days would be far better off selling direct via the NET and saving the customer money and making a bit more margin for themselves. Apart from food and clothes who really needs shops anymore. Outside of that and some visits to the hardware store I really don't use shops anymore. I try and avoid shops all I can. Its far easier to find what you want from your laptop or tablet than tramping round stores that seldom have what I want.

If you don't know how to set up a turntable properly you have no business owning one. That probably goes for the rest of the chain.

The next thing is that if the gear is any good there will not be many looking to get rid of it, especially in the early years. That is why there tends to be a dearth of really good gear on the second hand market. Case in point is TDL speakers. There were lots sold, but they just about never show up in eBay as owners guard them with their life. If there is a ton of the stuff on the second hand market in the early years after release, that is certainly a red flag junk alert warning.

I bet there are lot looking to offload these P5s right now.

The last point is that the second and third owners and the original owners after warranty expiration need an avenue for repair other then the manufacturer. I think it should be a matter of law that once a product is marketed a service manual should be generally available. That is the way it used to be and should be now. In years gone by there used to be no trouble getting service manuals. In this day and age you don't have to make a hard copy. Download is easy, and the manuals should be available.
 
J

Josuah

Senior Audioholic
Manufacturers these days would be far better off selling direct via the NET and saving the customer money and making a bit more margin for themselves.
The reality is extremely far from this statement. Except for a few cases, the majority of sales are still made by brick and mortar stores. And for expensive equipment this is even more so because people want to try before they buy. Audio gear auditions happen, as do audition at home before you buy. See also cars, jewelry, furniture, handbags.

You may be perfectly happy doing everything through online research and buying over the Internet, but you are in a minority.
If you don't know how to set up a turntable properly you have no business owning one. That probably goes for the rest of the chain.
You can wish for it but it won't be true. And I think many people would disagree that they should somehow be left out just because they don't have the education or resources to know that stuff. See also computers, Internet, pianos (tuning),home appliances.
The last point is that the second and third owners and the original owners after warranty expiration need an avenue for repair other then the manufacturer. I think it should be a matter of law that once a product is marketed a service manual should be generally available.
There are authorized repair centers as well as regular electronics repair centers. Both of which will service gear that is in or out of warranty. You can also usually get a service manual from the manufacturer, if one exists, although there may be a fee. But there's are both laws and financial reasons why self-service voids warranty.

The various facts I mentioned are real things I'm aware of. I'm speculating on how those facts relate to warranty policies.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
The reality is extremely far from this statement. Except for a few cases, the majority of sales are still made by brick and mortar stores. And for expensive equipment this is even more so because people want to try before they buy. Audio gear auditions happen, as do audition at home before you buy. See also cars, jewelry, furniture, handbags.

You may be perfectly happy doing everything through online research and buying over the Internet, but you are in a minority.

You can wish for it but it won't be true. And I think many people would disagree that they should somehow be left out just because they don't have the education or resources to know that stuff. See also computers, Internet, pianos (tuning),home appliances.

There are authorized repair centers as well as regular electronics repair centers. Both of which will service gear that is in or out of warranty. You can also usually get a service manual from the manufacturer, if one exists, although there may be a fee. But there's are both laws and financial reasons why self-service voids warranty.

The various facts I mentioned are real things I'm aware of. I'm speculating on how those facts relate to warranty policies.
I'm not talking about in warranty service, I'm talking about no warranty, either because the unit is second hand or the warranty does not transfer or the clock has run out. The owner should not be limited to factory service and service manuals should be readily available. I know for a lot of gear now, on one has even bothered to put together a service manual which is a total disgrace.

I remember a better time when the CEOs were the engineers, before all these useless waste of space MBA and marketing types came on the scene and queered the patch.

It was much better then, and people like Peter Walker regarded the failure of a unit a personal affront no matter what the age of the unit.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
I remember a better time when the CEOs were the engineers, before all these useless waste of space MBA and marketing types came on the scene and queered the patch.

It was much better then, and people like Peter Walker regarded the failure of a unit a personal affront no matter what the age of the unit.
Agreed!
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Junior Audioholic
I know old thread, but I might as well update and chime in. The P5 is definitely one big problem. My 3rd unit has had to be shipped back in for this same vol pot issues. It's down right aggravating and disappointing. Who wants to have such a simple unit have to be taken apart and worked on, only to know the issue will come back. Hopefully they will do the right thing and replace it for the P6, which seems to have a proper working pot. I think this is why you see these units always up for sell, people just get fed up. We will see if Parasound stands up and does the right thing. And if they do, I will not only praise them, but will continue to be a customer.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The Parasound P5 is such a fiasco. Gives Parasound a bad name.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Junior Audioholic
The Parasound P5 is such a fiasco. Gives Parasound a bad name.
Yep, im just waiting to hear if they are going to do the right thing and upgrade me. I've been through enough with this model. I don't think it would be right to do a so called repair or replacement only to keep going through this.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
I'd give up, and switch over to a better VC. Can't be that expensive.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yep, im just waiting to hear if they are going to do the right thing and upgrade me. I've been through enough with this model. I don't think it would be right to do a so called repair or replacement only to keep going through this.
Keep us posted on this Parasound disaster. Hope they treat you right.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Junior Audioholic
Will do. My dealer said he is going to bat for me. However as we all know it just depends on their mood that day. If they do the right thing I will praise them and continue to do business with them.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
They won’t. The Hint has an issue too. That why they changed them on the new models. It’s a shame. Sent mine back and fourth a bunch of times including the Hint. Now I’m happy with Yamaha.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Junior Audioholic
The excuses get old. I know another who said they constantly tried to tell him during testing they couldn't duplicate the problem. As if anyone wants to keep sending it back in for no reason. I agree with some of the other posts and other threads from other sites (which have conveniently disappeared) they new it was a problem, which is why they came out with the P6. Pretty much exact same unit bit with a proper vol pot. My P5 also had power button issues, sometimes it would not shut off without using the main power switch on the back of the unit.

Whats really sad is I have a el cheapo balanced passive pre with an Alps pot and it works perfectly. Channels are balanced and track great. No hiss or scratchiness and doesn't change the sound signature in any way.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Junior Audioholic
Update- I will post below the email sent to my dealer. But they are screwing me over.
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I did hear from Parasound just a bit ago. I wanted to pass along the Diagnostic report section from their testing findings:
"One item of note is that the rear panel XOVER was engaged which would have cut off frequencies below the setting on the unit meaning reduced bass unless a sub is deployed in the system.

We have not and are not able to reproduce the issues noted by Mr xxxxxxxx in the notes above. The channel tracking actually exceeds spec as it is less than 1dB difference, unnoticeable to the human ear. We have a pair of very efficient Klipsch in the testing room and we were not able to hear any channel imbalance at even very low listening levels.
All other tested specs meet or exceed specification. "


Essentially they believe the issues you are experiencing are tied to your specific system. They claim that they cannot replicate the issues and upon extensive testing and measurement, that your unit is performing better than specified in the specifications listed. The rep tells me this as well:

"We are sending the unit back to you at Living Sound as our testing revealed the unit is well within spec"

So basically they are saying the unit is performing perfectly and are not offering a replacement. They will not refund the unit because it is declared fully functional.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following was my reply to my dealer-
Of course I know about the crossover settings and yes I use a sub.

And I don’t believe their test one bit. The left channel comes on at a good volume before the right channel has yet to come on. Then when the right does come on you have to use the balance control to get the channels even.

I also see they didn’t say anything about the powering off button doesn’t work sometimes.

This is BS and is what everyone else is complaining about.

So when it comes back, we can hook it up at your place and I will prove it to you. Sure is funny this cheap passive pre I am using temporary doesn’t have this problem, and it has an alps pot and only cost $60. Tracks great and balanced great.

They know it’s a problem and don’t want to take responsibility for it. That’s why they came out with pretty much the same unit called it P6 and put a proper working vol pot in it.



Sorry to vent on you Chris, but as you can imagine im pretty steamed right now.
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So that's it in a nut shell fellas. Parasound trying to pass the buck, obviously doesn't care about their customers or pride in their product. I love how they want to make it out as if their customers are doing something wrong.
 
Truthslayer

Truthslayer

Junior Audioholic
Well I got my unit back yesterday, with a tech sheet attached, saying unit met specs, unable to verify channel imbalance. That's it, no info on what test was done or anything about measurements.
To make things even worse, my dealer was supposed to have it hooked up to a system when I came in, so I could show him the issues.
Nope, I get there unit is boxed up and he shows me a picture of it hooked up to some bookshelf speakers and a 50 watt old parasound amp. Says it sounded ok to them. So they tested it on very inefficient speakers, I think they were 82 db and a cheap amp in a large room with all kinds of noise. Didn't say anything about low volume, big imbalance because well ( they didn't do that) Nothing about remote control used for checking volume sending those annoying sounds through the speakers because well (we didn't do that). I was shocked a supposedly high end dealership seem to lack any common sense. Now I am starting to realize why my main dealer doesn't carry parasound and wanted nothing to do with their products.
To top it off, when I dropped the unit off to the dealer 3 weeks ago so they could ship back to parasound, they had moved from last year when I bought the P5, then when I go to pick up the unit, guess what, they moved again.
So I learned a costly lesson, stay away from Parasound and LivingSounds. But to bad for the both of them, I have a large family and many friends and acquaintances who are into the audio game, and I will do everything possible to steer them away from both companies.
Anyways I guess most people have a audio product nightmare sometime in their life and this one was mine.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Ninja
Well I got my unit back yesterday, with a tech sheet attached, saying unit met specs, unable to verify channel imbalance. That's it, no info on what test was done or anything about measurements.
To make things even worse, my dealer was supposed to have it hooked up to a system when I came in, so I could show him the issues.
Nope, I get there unit is boxed up and he shows me a picture of it hooked up to some bookshelf speakers and a 50 watt old parasound amp. Says it sounded ok to them. So they tested it on very inefficient speakers, I think they were 82 db and a cheap amp in a large room with all kinds of noise. Didn't say anything about low volume, big imbalance because well ( they didn't do that) Nothing about remote control used for checking volume sending those annoying sounds through the speakers because well (we didn't do that). I was shocked a supposedly high end dealership seem to lack any common sense. Now I am starting to realize why my main dealer doesn't carry parasound and wanted nothing to do with their products.
To top it off, when I dropped the unit off to the dealer 3 weeks ago so they could ship back to parasound, they had moved from last year when I bought the P5, then when I go to pick up the unit, guess what, they moved again.
So I learned a costly lesson, stay away from Parasound and LivingSounds. But to bad for the both of them, I have a large family and many friends and acquaintances who are into the audio game, and I will do everything possible to steer them away from both companies.
Anyways I guess most people have a audio product nightmare sometime in their life and this one was mine.
If your gonna toss it, I'll pay for shipping to me instead :p
 

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