Parasound A51 vs Anthem MCA 525 Gen 2

[Verdinut]

Some tweeters are hard to take for long periods- it may be an inherent flaw, might be bad crossover design, etc. When JBL came out with their Titanium domes in the late-'80s, I couldn't take it. A few years later, I heard the MB Quart titanium tweeters for car stereo and I liked those but when I would hear JBL Ti tweeters, I still didn't like them, so it's not as simple as saying that my hearing changed. I like textile domes and some ribbons, although I admit that I haven't listened to many different speakers lately.

I need to admit that my deleted comment about compression tweeters was based on this type-

View attachment 44617

I went to a car audio shop yesterday and saw one of these in the display case and I can't imagine being in a car with them.

This type of compression tweeter strongly resembles the first one, the 075 that JBL built and that was used in the SR8 Olympus enclosure, and which by the way was most likely JBL's best enclosure ever built. That tweeter used aluminum at the time, I guess:

JBL SR8 Olympus Speaker System

Serial numbers 47353/54 manufactured 1960s in a Walnut enclosure with original grilles and intricate fretwork carving and black backing. Each speaker contains original drivers JBL LE15A 16 ohm Woofer "Blue Frame", JBL PR15 15" Passive Radiator, JBL 375 Driver Horn w/ original lenses, and JBL 075...

www.lelandlittle.com

 

[ban25]

It's specifically the higher frequencies.


Maybe its just not a good pair for Klipsch speakers and/or I am over-sensitive or something.

Have you tried measuring with REW to see what the FR looks like? Maybe you have some weird peaks that need to be EQ'd out.

Or at least try applying a severe roll-off past 16 kHz just to see if that makes it sound less harsh.

 

[PENG]

Why do you think it was the amp particularly? Did you test those same speakers with other electronics that time? I'm not a particular fan of the Klipsch myself, but sounds a bit much even for them, particularly at moderate spl.

The RF7 III may be too new to have any measurements published, but if it is anything like the RF7 II, then you could right, for those sensitive to the 12 to 18 kHz range, those speakers need to be listened to off axis a little.

Klipsch RF7 II Measurements | AVS Forum

My big question is, are the RF7 III better, or worse?

 

[PENG]

It's specifically the higher frequencies.


Maybe its just not a good pair for Klipsch speakers and/or I am over-sensitive or something.

I don't think it is a maybe, it is very obvious because there is no way amps like the MCA525 can sound harsh due to high frequency peaks. Those amps are transparent, flat line response from 20-20,000 Hz, period.......

Are the speakers toe-in, have you tried without any toe-in and see if that improve things.

There are no measurements online to be found on the newer MCA series, but even the lower models, such as the PVA series can do virtually flat line response:

See that they are no peaks at all at >10 kHz.

SoundStage! Measurements - Anthem PVA 2 Stereo Amplifier (6/2003) (soundstagenetwork.com)

Red line: open circuit
Magenta line: 8-ohm load
Blue line: 4-ohm load

Pretty sure it's not the amp, but the speakers/placement, source recording/mastering, and/or source players doing it to you.

 

[perryleros]

The RF7 III may be too new to have any measurements published, but if it is anything like the RF7 II, then you could right, for those sensitive to the 12 to 18 kHz range, those speakers need to be listened to off axis a little.

Klipsch RF7 II Measurements | AVS Forum

My big question is, are the RF7 III better, or worse?

View attachment 61765

Here are my actual measurements and corrections in ARC

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The RF7 III may be too new to have any measurements published, but if it is anything like the RF7 II, then you could right, for those sensitive to the 12 to 18 kHz range, those speakers need to be listened to off axis a little.

Klipsch RF7 II Measurements | AVS Forum

My big question is, are the RF7 III better, or worse?

View attachment 61765

So the usual listening window from 200Hz-10kHz is about -1dB to +3dB, or +/-2dB average, which is pretty good. Most people above 50YR probably can’t hear beyond 15kHz, but even at 15kHz, it’s -1dB to +4dB, or average of +/-2.5dB or no more than +/-3dB, which is still good.

Only reason I brought this up was because I thought the listening window was like +/-6dB or some crazy stuff , not +/-2dB for listening window on the Klipsch.

 

[PENG]

Here are my actual measurements and corrections in ARC
View attachment 61769

That's great supplementary info! Since you do have the help from RC, you most likely can fix the high frequency harshness, at least to some extent if not completely.

Just that with Anthem ARC Genesis, your option is a little more limited than if it is Audyssey or Dirac Live.

Those predicted FR curves (the green ones) are just predicted, not "actual" measurements for the FR after ARCG calibration.

Still, the red curves, that does represent the "actual" as measured by the mic, show the potential issue you are dealing with.

It looks like you should try the following:

- Increase the HF roll off setting, probably try it with the maximum setting first, such as 0.5 from whatever it is now just to hear the effects and then go from there.

- Increase the maximum correction frequency to 20 K, or 15 K from the default 5 K for the effects to take place.

Again, with Anthem, there are limited tweaks you can do to the target curves, but you should still be able to tame the HF a little. Other than that, I would still suggest you don't toe in the speakers at all.

Also, Anthem does keep the room gain in the bass range, but it seems to apply no deep bass boost by default. If you do use REW, I would suggest you take your own measurements instead of relying on the ARC generated FR graphs. If you do see a suck out in the deep bass, you can then add deep bass, or just do it regardless. Try 3.5 to start, and center frequency 50 Hz. If you feel you have enough bass then obviously just leave it alone, especially if you don't have REW to guide you.

The reason I mention the bass range is that if it is too thin in your room, it might contribute to the feeling of having too much in the high frequency range because the overall response is not on the neutral/balance side of the equation.

 

[perryleros]

That's great supplementary info! Since you do have the help from RC, you most likely can fix the high frequency harshness, at least to some extent if not completely.

Just that with Anthem ARC Genesis, your option is a little more limited than if it is Audyssey or Dirac Live.

Those predicted FR curves (the green ones) are just predicted, not "actual" measurements for the FR after ARCG calibration.

Still, the red curves, that does represent the "actual" as measured by the mic, show the potential issue you are dealing with.

It looks like you should try the following:

- Increase the HF roll off setting, probably try it with the maximum setting first, such as 0.5 from whatever it is now just to hear the effects and then go from there.

- Increase the maximum correction frequency to 20 K, or 15 K from the default 5 K for the effects to take place.

Again, with Anthem, there are limited tweaks you can do to the target curves, but you should still be able to tame the HF a little. Other than that, I would still suggest you don't toe in the speakers at all.

Also, Anthem does keep the room gain in the bass range, but it seems to apply no deep bass boost by default. If you do use REW, I would suggest you take your own measurements instead of relying on the ARC generated FR graphs. If you do see a suck out in the deep bass, you can then add deep bass, or just do it regardless. Try 3.5 to start, and center frequency 50 Hz. If you feel you have enough bass then obviously just leave it alone, especially if you don't have REW to guide you.

The reason I mention the bass range is that if it is too thin in your room, it might contribute to the feeling of having too much in the high frequency range because the overall response is not on the neutral/balance side of the equation.

That helps a lot!
The fact that what i see in ARC is predicted and not the actual curve post calibration.
I will have to measure manually and see how it looks.

 

[PENG]

So the usual listening window from 200Hz-10kHz is about -1dB to +3dB, or +/-2dB average, which is pretty good. Most people above 50YR probably can’t hear beyond 15kHz, but even at 15kHz, it’s -1dB to +4dB, or average of +/-2.5dB or no more than +/-3dB, which is still good.

Only reason I brought this up was because I thought the listening window was like +/-6dB or some crazy stuff , not +/-2dB for listening window on the Klipsch.

Agreed, that's why I mentioned "for those sensitive to the 12 to 18 kHz range, "...
The OP might just happen to have very sensitive to that range! Some people could be, regardless of age (up to a point, obviously). It is not just the fundamental frequency, the worst case I would imagine is that, he might be picking up the harmonics, especially the odd ones such as 3rd through 7th harmonics of the lower fundamental frequencies. It would/could be worse because those harmonics are resulted from "distortions" to begin with, so it would take a lot less for them to be perceived as harshness. That's just my theory, in order to be sure it would have to be calculated and/or measured.

 

[perryleros]

After a lot of testing and trying i went back to Parasound amplifiers and it sounds sweet right away! Detailed, tight bass and really nice upper frequencies.
Before and after ARC Genesis. Even at extremely loud volumes (100db) never harsh.
I didnt even apply a tilt to my ARC curve, left the higher frequencies as they naturally are above 5kh.

Not sure why or how, but sadly I couldn't stick with an all-anthem setup, instead will keep using huge parasound gear.

 

[PENG]

After a lot of testing and trying i went back to Parasound amplifiers and it sounds sweet right away! Detailed, tight bass and really nice upper frequencies.
Before and after ARC Genesis. Even at extremely loud volumes (100db) never harsh.
I didnt even apply a tilt to my ARC curve, left the higher frequencies as they naturally are above 5kh.

Not sure why or how, but sadly I couldn't stick with an all-anthem setup, instead will keep using huge parasound gear.

Very strange, wish I were there... I have owned both Halo and MCA amps. The Halo amps typically have larger power supplies, but unless one pushes them to their limits under 4 or 5 channel driven conditions, the MCA's power supplies should not be the bottleneck either.

 

[perryleros]

Very strange, wish I were there... I have owned both Halo and MCA amps. The Halo amps typically have larger power supplies, but unless one pushes them to their limits under 4 or 5 channel driven conditions, the MCA's power supplies should not be the bottleneck either.

I dont think the amplifier is the issue.
My verdict is that the klipsch speakers render the high frequencies in such way that benefits from an amplifier with slight softening of the upper range. Not saying the Parasound is muffled or too laid back, but kind of rounds the edgy sound. Maybe related to the JFET/MOSFET design.

I really loved how elegant the Anthem looks but at the end of the day I had to stick with what sounds best to my ears.

 

[PENG]

I dont think the amplifier is the issue.
My verdict is that the klipsch speakers render the high frequencies in such way that benefits from an amplifier with slight softening of the upper range. Not saying the Parasound is muffled or too laid back, but kind of rounds the edgy sound. Maybe related to the JFET/MOSFET design.

I really loved how elegant the Anthem looks but at the end of the day I had to stick with what sounds best to my ears.

You are in fact saying it is the amp. If not, then the Klipsch's chrateristics should not result in sound quality difference between those two transparent amps.

Based on your posts so far, I would bet 2 to 1 that if you don't know which amps is in use, they would sound the same. Unless, you still have both and is willing to invest time and effort comparing them properly, you will never know, and I can only speculate.

Amps can sound different for sure, but the two you are comparing are designed to be transparent, and both have more than enough juice to drive your Klipsch speakers without causing different tonality regardless of which amp is used.

Anyway, if you are happy with the A51, then problem solved, happy listening!

 

[Verdinut]

Transparent amplifiers have been produced for more than 50 years now. There should not be any audible discrepancy between them provided that each is driven within its designed operating limits.

 

[PENG]

Transparent amplifiers have been produced for more than 50 years now. There should not be any audible discrepancy between them provided that each is driven within its designed operating limits.

Unfortunately, we both know that we can only try to explain things and share our "been there, done that" experience, over and over again on forums. The fact is, it is unlikely that people who rely on subjective measurements would change their mind, without they actually participating in well controlled blind listening comparison tests.

For some reasons, many just wouldn't think logically, and ask the question, if even amps like the OP's considered could sound so audibly different and speakers dependent, how the heck are people going to pick the right amp for their speakers, and if there are things that matters enough to result in audible differences, why are they not measured and published by manufacturers, and why, instead, they all focus only those seemingly useless, or anecdotal specs and measurements?

After all, for the believers, there would just be too many combinations of amp X with speaker Y for them to choose the right amps for them, and too much for amp manufactures to design and build for. We can multiply these considerations in the case of preamp/processors that are far more sophisticated electronic devices than power amps. In this case, the OP is able to find one that works well for them, from only two choices, still not an easy process but not too bad either.

 

[ben_]

After all, for the believers, there would just be too many combinations of amp X with speaker Y for them to choose the right amps for them, and too much for amp manufactures to design and build for.

I actually think that for the believers, this is part of the appeal. What I mean is that it puts them on some sort of quest for the ideal pairing, which can never truly be attained. Vendors prey on this mindset because it's an easy way to sell more gear. It's a vicious cycle, but luckily it's something most of the believers have the disposable income to indulge. Obviously this doesn't hold up in any objective, logical sense, but it's not about objectivity or logic. It's about the quest and acquisition.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I actually think that for the believers, this is part of the appeal. What I mean is that it puts them on some sort of quest for the ideal pairing, which can never truly be attained. Vendors prey on this mindset because it's an easy way to sell more gear. It's a vicious cycle, but luckily it's something most of the believers have the disposable income to indulge. Obviously this doesn't hold up in any objective, logical sense, but it's not about objectivity or logic. It's about the quest and acquisition.

I think most of us (myself included) started out young and thinking all amps, preamps, DAC, and even cables sound differently. It was very exciting.

I remember the first time I read from The Audio Critic that all cables/wires sounded the same. I wasn’t happy. Same thing when I read that all amps, preamps, and DAC sounded the same.

I have to admit things became a little less exciting after not believing in that.

This reminds me of Adam & Eve eating from the fruit of knowledge or Neo & Trinity being unplugged from the Matrix.

All amps, preamps, and DAC sounding the same sounds kind of boring.

But now I can focus on other important things like quality, warranty, support, reliability, features, etc.

 

[ben_]

To be fair, there can be differences and even two pieces of equipment with the same on-paper specs won't be identical in all regards. Build quality matters, but that isn't really what the believers are after, in spite of what they might say. My personal feeling is that it's possible for things to be built to different standards but still perform and sound, if not identical, then close enough that it doesn't matter using any reasonable criteria.

 

[PENG]

Obviously this doesn't hold up in any objective, logical sense, but it's not about objectivity or logic. It's about the quest and acquisition.

So, I guess you agree with me that there is no logic to what's quoted from in post#72 below, in which perryleros handed down his "verdict"

My verdict is that the klipsch speakers render the high frequencies in such way that benefits from an amplifier with slight softening of the upper range. Not saying the Parasound is muffled or too laid back, but kind of rounds the edgy sound. Maybe related to the JFET/MOSFET design.

As you alluded to, he's not the only one who bought into such illogical conclusion/verdict, and that it is actually, also as you said, "part of the appeal".

I would say fine, let those who are drawn to such appeal, continue to spend their money on contributing to the higher profit margin of manufacturers, that ultimately may benefit people who have long turned to the objective side, ignore the psychologically influenced perception of sound quality and focus on things that are based on verifiable/measurable performance, such as recording/mastering quality, low distortions, noise, flat FR, good cross talk, low jitter, sufficiently low output impedance/i.e. high enough DF, good track record on reliability etc..

 

[ben_]

So, I guess you agree with me that there is no logic to what's quoted from in post#72 below, in which perryleros handed down his "verdict"



As you alluded to, he's not the only one who bought into such illogical conclusion/verdict, and that it is actually, also as you said, "part of the appeal".

Completely agreed, no logic. My personal opinion (I'm not an EE) is that the main differentiator between amps, other than class, is whether their power supplies are sufficient to really deliver their rated wattage, and I think these days at anything other than the low-end of the market, that is a non-issue. I think chasing sound with amplification, rather than EQ/DSP and speaker choice is foolish, but it's not my money.