Parametric Equalizers

[funk-o-meter]

So I guess your saying an op-amp can't sound good? Or I guess what you really mean is that your super sensitive ears are far superior to us humble mass-market cattle. .

Not at all my friend. I've got op-amps all in my stereo. They don't bother me at all. They might could sound 5% or 10% better if they were nicer ones, but I don't care really. Tons of audio gear, even expensive pro-level stuff has op amps in it. However there are usually a differen't quality of op-amps, and they sound different. Not dramatically usually, but you can hear them if given the opportunity to say... blind test them. I don't really think most of stuff with cheap op-amps sounds bad really, but somebody who's spent loads on their gear probably will. The Behringer stuff most likely has the cheaper op-amps, and might be perceivable in a really nice system. By an "audiophile" (something I don't really consider myself.)

I suppose you are one of those guys that buy expensive interconnects? They do make a HUGE difference you know. .

Nope, I buy decent sturdy ones and leave it at that. I can't really hear the difference to be honest with you.

Just to let you know, true audiophiles don’t use eq’s, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1. So I doubt anyone will be inserting one of these into his system. .

Yea, that does seem to be the case. I understand that back in the days of Dolby Pro Logic, that most of the surround information was coded into the 2 channel audio using phasing and that using an EQ could effect that some. (because lots of EQ's can introduce phasing). I don't guess that's really an issue any more with newe formats like DTS, but I don't know. Anybody?? I've always wondered why audiophiles shy away from EQ's. I guess it's that minimalists argument.

As far as the ADC’s, and DAC’s, as long as the sample rate, noise level and cutoff filters are good, nothing will be lost / introduced.

I used to feel the same way until I compared a few during a session some years back. I was converted. (no pun intended) I'd say there's a big difference in timber especially between a cheap one and a really nice one like an Apogee or a Prism. But however, within the realm of most consumer converters, there's little difference, if any. And I wouldn't say they sound bad these days.

There's a few pieces of gear that I've used over the years that had especially brittle sounding converters. Like the old "black face" Alesis ADAT's. HORRIBLE sounding compared to whats in most peoples CD players and receivers these days. Most I'd say sound fine, but when recording, using poor sounding converters on lots of tracks kind of adds up and contribute to the sound the overall mix has. I can hear those old ADAT's in lots of the stuff Glen Ballard produces. He loves those old things. Most people don't. I can hear it easily. Check out Alannis Morrissett's "Jagged Little Pill" or "Dave Matthews Everyday". Those are both records that Glenn Did. The later especially had a very different timbre to it than the previous Dave Matthews records produced by Steve Lillywhite or John Alassia. I'd say in big part due to him liking to use those old Alesis machines. I'd by a nice DAC for my rig If I was putting together an expensive one. And I always like to have one good one in the studio for overdubs.

-funk-

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Funk,

You seem to know your recording engineers/managers. I'd be interested to know who does Blues Traveler and what type of equipment they use. It's probably the best sounding cd I own, and I have quite a collection. It's as close to perfect as you can get.

 

[funk-o-meter]

Steve Thomson did a few, but they've had different producers record to record. Trina Shoemaker engineered the last one. She's one of my farorites. Done some of my favorite records in the last 10 years. Always wanted to meet her.

 

[mulester7]

The Behringer DEQ2496 is a digital graphic and parametric equalizer. However, if you prefer slider controls(the DEQ2496 has a digital screen and scroll wheel), the DEQ1024 is also digital, but has slider controls to mimick the control of an analog device. However, this unit has 31 bands.

-Chris

.....MOST interesting thread....I suspect using one these for full-range would depend on how much help/adjustment/correction the full-range speakers needed.....

.....at subwoofer level, which unit would you advise, Chris?....and how do you set up the unit....I mean, what particular perks do you listen for as you adjust the bands, and in what order are the bands adjusted?.....

 

[WmAx]

.....MOST interesting thread....I suspect using one these for full-range would depend on how much help/adjustment/correction the full-range speakers needed.....

.....at subwoofer level, which unit would you advise, Chris?....and how do you set up the unit....I mean, what particular perks do you listen for as you adjust the bands, and in what order are the bands adjusted?.....

I set up an omnidirectional measurement microphone at the listening position. The microphone is connected to a mic preamplifier and feeding the line-in to a computer soundcard. I have the line out connected to line inputs to the stereo. I measure low frequency frequency response at the listening position with high resolution sine wave sweeps using LspLab software. The DCX2496 connects to a computer via a serial cable. I use the DCX control software to make adjustments via a PC after aquiring the relevant measurements. You can also use the controls on the DCX front panel, but it's easier for me to have a LCD monitor and old PC always set up with my stereo, that can be booted up for quick measurements/adjustments.

If you only intend to use the equalizer for the subwoofer(and don't need further functions such as active crossover for future applications), then I recommend the $100 Behringer DSP1124P. However, I don't think this has product has PC control software. You will need to have a PC set up for measurements or a SPL meter, test CD, pen and a piece of graph paper in order to manually plot the response.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

.....damn, you've made a science out of this....thanks.....

 

[jeffsg4mac]

Lets just end this EQ and audiophile thing right here. Without an RTA and an EQ, be it a graphic or parametric and proper room treatment, there is no way you will ever achieve or hope to achieve a flat response. Its not going to happen; not unless your room is an anechoic chamber. A true audiophile would know this just as he or she would know that esoteric cables are a scam as well. Of course most of us here at audioholics dislike the term audiophile anyway. Just remember the RX Z9 and the 5805 have parametric EQ's on all channels, which is exactly what an audiophile would want if he or she were a smart one

 

[mulester7]

.....most people who claim to be an audiophile simply have a lot of money to spend, are told what to buy, and waste a lot of their money.....

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I set up an omnidirectional measurement microphone at the listening position. The microphone is connected to a mic preamplifier and feeding the line-in to a computer soundcard. I have the line out connected to line inputs to the stereo. I measure low frequency frequency response at the listening position with high resolution sine wave sweeps using LspLab software. The DCX2496 connects to a computer via a serial cable. I use the DCX control software to make adjustments via a PC after aquiring the relevant measurements. You can also use the controls on the DCX front panel, but it's easier for me to have a LCD monitor and old PC always set up with my stereo, that can be booted up for quick measurements/adjustments.

If you only intend to use the equalizer for the subwoofer(and don't need further functions such as active crossover for future applications), then I recommend the $100 Behringer DSP1124P. However, I don't think this has product has PC control software. You will need to have a PC set up for measurements or a SPL meter, test CD, pen and a piece of graph paper in order to manually plot the response.

-Chris

Chris,

With my 3805, I'm running an analog Audiosource EQ11 between my cd player and receiver. It's a decent 10 band graphic eq that ranges from 30Hz to 16kHz. It does a fantastic job getting rid of muddy bass and helping out with the higher end midrange. I'm wondering if I could hook it up between the pre out on the receiver and the ext in for the front left and right speakers (since it's only two band). Would the Denon recognize it as a processor or an amp (does it even matter)? Would it actually eq the front speakers? The manual doesn't discuss it, but I'd think there would be some type of way to program it to use the internal DAC and then loop everything to the internal amp. Is that how the Behringer digital eq is set up on these new receivers? If that works, I'll be ordering a Behringer real soon.

 

[funk-o-meter]

Just use a Tape loop for that. Unless they've stopped putting those on the newer receivers.(?) Tape out's (play) to EQ in's, then EQ out's to tape in's (record).Then you can switch it in and out at will. You might have to use either 1/4" to RCA cables or adapters to get in and out of the EQ unless they're putting RCA in's and out's on the EQ's. And the EQ probably operates at +4 and not -10 impedance, but it won't cause you any problems. It might even have a switch to let you choose. Parametrics can be intimidating, but when you get used to them, you'll love it. I do at least.

 

[mulester7]

"I've always wondered why audiophiles shy away from EQ's"

.....Funk-O-Meter, I've always felt it adds emphasis to the accuracy of their speakers, which is usually where they've dropped the most money....you know, the +/- db rating from top to bottom of the speaker....

.....you obviously have a good amount of experience in recording studios.....do you have experience running a compressor on vocals with home audio?....a compressor really brings vocals to life in a studio as per blending's sake, imo......

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Original question:
With my 3805, I'm running an analog Audiosource EQ11 between my cd player and receiver. It's a decent 10 band graphic eq that ranges from 30Hz to 16kHz. It does a fantastic job getting rid of muddy bass and helping out with the higher end midrange. I'm wondering if I could hook it up between the pre out on the receiver and the ext in for the front left and right speakers (since it's only two band). Would the Denon recognize it as a processor or an amp (does it even matter)? Would it actually eq the front speakers? The manual doesn't discuss it, but I'd think there would be some type of way to program it to use the internal DAC and then loop everything to the internal amp. Is that how the Behringer digital eq is set up on these new receivers? If that works, I'll be ordering a Behringer real soon.
__________________

Just use a Tape loop for that. Unless they've stopped putting those on the newer receivers.(?) Tape out's (play) to EQ in's, then EQ out's to tape in's (record).Then you can switch it in and out at will. You might have to use either 1/4" to RCA cables or adapters to get in and out of the EQ unless they're putting RCA in's and out's on the EQ's. And the EQ probably operates at +4 and not -10 impedance, but it won't cause you any problems. It might even have a switch to let you choose. Parametrics can be intimidating, but when you get used to them, you'll love it. I do at least.

A tape monitor? Doesn't have one. The new receivers have tape in and out on the back panel (rca), but there's no switching on the receiver. That's why I was thinking you have to use it like an external amp. Here's the back of my unit.
www.usa.denon.com/catalog/photo.asp?s=home&p=AVR-3805&f=AVR3805 Back.jpg&c=2

 

[WmAx]

Chris,

I'm wondering if I could hook it up between the pre out on the receiver and the ext in for the front left and right speakers (since it's only two band).

This is reciever specific. If the amp allows you to externally loop the rear pre out to the external amp inputs, then this would be the ideal way. If not, you will have to use the tape loop monitor(if this modern reciever has that function). I'm also not sure(if there is a tape loop) if the reciever would operate in all modes(digital inputs) and still use the equalizer if it was connected through the tape loop. Also, if you ever use Doly Pro-Logic, it probably will not work correctly with an E.Q. in the tape loop. You need to check these options using your current equalizer.

The manual doesn't discuss it, but I'd think there would be some type of way to program it to use the internal DAC and then loop everything to the internal amp.

Too much of a variability between models/manufacturers for me to know. My favorite type of reciever was always the one that had physical loop/shorting bars on the back, coming out of pre outputs, then feeding directly back in to the direct amp inputs. You could easily do anything you wanted with these.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

With my 3805, I'm running an analog Audiosource EQ11 between my cd player and receiver.

I was reading the manual for your Denon 3805. It seems that this reciever has a built in parametric equalizer that you can manually program. So, if it's just an E.Q. that you want, there is one available(buried?) in the set up configuration.

-Chris

 

[funk-o-meter]

I've not tried what your asking, with the pre-out power-in configuration. Sounds like it should work. If you've got one in the processor, use that one !

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I've not tried what your asking, with the pre-out power-in configuration. Sounds like it should work. If you've got one in the processor, use that one !

The internal eq doesn't have the same macro adjustments as the Audiosource. I have the internal eq adjusted quite a bit right now, but running the Audiosource between the cd and amp cleans it up even more. I'll try the pre-out to ext. amp in tonight and let you know what happens. I'll call my insurance agent and drop the deductible on the homeowners too. I'll also call Denon. The techs usually know what their talking about, but usually tell you not to jimmy rig things which could void warranties. Imagine that.

 

[WmAx]

The internal eq doesn't have the same macro adjustments as the Audiosource. I have the internal eq adjusted quite a bit right now, but running the Audiosource between the cd and amp cleans it up even more. I'll try the pre-out to ext. amp in tonight and let you know what happens. I'll call my insurance agent and drop the deductible on the homeowners too. I'll also call Denon. The techs usually know what their talking about, but usually tell you not to jimmy rig things which could void warranties. Imagine that.

Since there are not shorting bars on the back, there must be a mode to select that will disengage the internal pre from directly connecting to the amplifiers.

As for the built-in E.Q. Please tell me: Can you adjust the frequency, Q and gain of several parametric filters? There are two types of E.Q.s in the unit. A standard graphic type and a parametric that you must engage. That is what the illustration in the manual led me to believe. Did you find the parametric one? Or are you just using the graphic e.q.?

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Since there are not shorting bars on the back, there must be a mode to select that will disengage the internal pre from directly connecting to the amplifiers.

As for the built-in E.Q. Please tell me: Can you adjust the frequency, Q and gain of several parametric filters? There are two types of E.Q.s in the unit. A standard graphic type and a parametric that you must engage. That is what the illustration in the manual led me to believe. Did you find the parametric one? Or are you just using the graphic e.q.?

-Chris

Pgs 28-31 shows how to adjust the frequency, gain, and Q of 57,110,250,510,1.1,2.6,4.8m and 10kHz. You are correct. I do use both.

As far as a mode that disengages the pre to the amp, I can't find it. Page 45 has some info about amp assignments that I don't use.

 

[WmAx]

Pgs 28-31 shows how to adjust the frequency, gain, and Q of 57,110,250,510,1.1,2.6,4.8m and 10kHz. You are correct. I do use both.

As far as a mode that disengages the pre to the amp, I can't find it. Page 45 has some info about amp assignments that I don't use.

Can you change the frequencies(for example, change 57Hz to 59Hz)?

-Chris

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Can you change the frequencies(for example, change 57Hz to 59Hz)?

-Chris

I don't think so. In fact, I'm having a hard time just getting to that screen. The manual is writtin in Japenglish.