Outlaw B-Stock Sale

CB22

CB22

Senior Audioholic
On wood floors, you wouldn't have any worries. No need for a platform. If you put them in and your house is vibrating, get those industrial rubber and cork pads that they use for air conditioners, machinery, laundry machines... those are the least expensive best way to do it!.

Regarding the choice between the two?... I know I got a lot of advice to consider the Hsu (and rythmik, and monolith, and...). And I did. But at the end of the day, the cost for the x-13 on sale with shipping is a pretty flippin great deal!

I do have two, and they are in a small room... ~2000'3. (I think you can see them both in some of the photos I posted.) They are potent. When I first set them up at about 1/2 gain as recommended... they literally made my ears go a little numb within 5 min. ;) That got fixed... I've got them at about 1/4-1/3 gain now, and trimmed down in the AVR. They blend well with the BMRs, XO at 60hz right now, but I go back and forth between that and 80. I can hear a slight difference, but can't say I prefer one over the other. I used them in sealed mode for a week or so before pulling one of the bungs, and I am now running in extended mode. Sounds great: tight and accurate.

These would be a nice counterpoint too: Satin black under the Cherry BMRs! :) Dunno if the site got updated or not, but mine measure 18"wide, not 17. *shrugs Small difference.

Cheers!

Oh... this is what I was talking about, from Amozon: Diversitech EVA anti vibration pad
Rated for 50 psi... might want a little something between the spikey rubber tip of the subs foot just so you don't over compress the pad... something like this
You certainly have given me a lot to think about. My wallet will not like this one bit however it very well may be necessary. 2k for two X-13 shipped is a good deal.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
You certainly have given me a lot to think about. My wallet will not like this one bit however it very well may be necessary. 2k for two X-13 shipped is a good deal.
Your wallet would like you even less if you bought any other sub of this caliber. $1,000 is a steal for such a seriously capable subwoofer!
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Your wallet would like you even less if you bought any other sub of this caliber. $1,000 is a steal for such a seriously capable subwoofer!
Wait a minute... @KEW You like ported subs now? I thought you only liked sealed subs? :)
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
You certainly have given me a lot to think about. My wallet will not like this one bit however it very well may be necessary. 2k for two X-13 shipped is a good deal.
That’s a hard decision because the HSU is a great choice too.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I think you know I tend towards your line of thought. ;)

I will say, in way of a micro review, that the metal cup is pretty heavy duty steel, and the rubber/sorbothane "mini-bundt cake" is squidgy A.F. (ok, not wet, so maybe not the best adj., but I think you get the point). That said, the pad is glued in, and they warn not to drag them, so it is apparent that they can be torn away from the steel cup.
Each foot weighs in at 5oz/143g. It has some heft to it. And as I said... it does do what they claim!

Admittedly, I was curious as I kept seeing talk about the benefits of isolation (in general). I almost paid full price through SVS... waited... even had those industrial anti-vibration pads in my amazon cart when I found this deal. So I took the leap. Wheeeeeee!
So without the pads, did your floor vibrate?
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
For me, it Is not about vibrating the floors (slab on grade) but preventing the sub from taking going for a walk. I had (well, still have, waiting in a closet) a Sunfire True Subwoofer (original from 1997) and on carpeted floors, it was just fine. My current media room has tile flooring and the Sunfire, when hit with some strong LFs (think the opening of "Live, Die, Repeat") would do a jig. I purchased an Auralex SubDude and it worked great. When I got my HSU ULS-15 MK2, I thought it would be heavy enough not to do the same, but sure enough... IT is a little to large for the SubDude with its feet on (it just barely sits on all four corners) but again, the problem is solved. As for any "improvement" in sound... Meh.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
So without the pads, did your floor vibrate?
When you say the pads... you mean the feet? Or the other things that I told cb22 about? (I don’t have any of those... but they were strongly recommended by many... )

The stock feet on the platform still would shake the room... lots of vibrations still, but better when I got the platforms on spikes. (When the platforms were just sitting flat on the carpet, tons of vibration. The changeover to the new feet on top of the platform on spikes was night and day. For me.
The lady found all the rattling more entertaining. *shrugs
And I would say it’s more about the construction of the house than just about anything else... I always suspected my landlord either spaced his joists wide, used lighter grade floorboard or both.
Strong LF will still vibrate things no matter what. But even when not turned up, I would get some strong vibrations without the isolation feet.
Regarding how I experienced the bass change vs John, I would say it has more to do with cleaning up the transference of energy more than anything... by minimizing sympathetic vibrations throughout the structure, you allow yourself to just hear/feel the sub.
My situation is extreme... I don’t know, or suggest, that everybody needs to do what I did, to the extent that I did. However, if you get more house rattle than anything else, ya, I strongly suggest some kind of vibration control. :)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Wait a minute... @KEW You like ported subs now? I thought you only liked sealed subs? :)
I'm still of the same essential opinion, but I believe my understanding of the "why" has evolved.
Here are my thoughts on the matter:

1) I think a simple sealed sub has a better starting FR for music in a typical room. My belief is, after room gain, you get close to a flat FR that only requires modest EQ. More importantly, you do not run much chance of bass being too strong which can totally ruin the overall SQ. This is, IMHO, the least expensive way to get good bass for music in a typical room. I see your sealed Rythmiks as a fantastic sub in your bedroom system with the Ventos!

2) I think a sealed sub w/DSP which has been EQ'ed to be flat in an anechoic chamber can be as bad as a ported sub. This is based on my experience with dual JL Audio e112's and a SVS SB-12plus (although it had a PEQ which could be used to tame the low bass). In principal, I don't like the idea of adding DSP then having to EQ it the opposite direction to get flat response in room.

3) Simple ported subs are much easier tuned to obtain anechoic flat FR. We learned to look for a flat anechoic FR for speakers because at most frequencies room gain is not an issue. However, we know room gain dramatically effects low frequencies in most rooms. Accordingly, I question the wisdom of seeking flat anechoic FR. The lowest level SVS ported subs are good examples of subs that I would absolutely avoid, because they do not offer means to tune the sub to your room. The Dayton SUB1200 is an exception to this rule as they did not use the port to try to get the deepest response they could. It rolls off more close to a typical sealed sub.
Note: While I question the wisdom of using anechoic flat FR as a measure of how good the FR of a sub is, I do acknowledge for a repeatable measure that will yield similar result measured at different facilities, the anechoic chamber and measurement methods to imitate it are useful.

4) I believe ported subs such as the Outlaw X13 and Hsu models (between two port plugs and EQ options) offer a wide enough array of tuning options to be tuned well in room. I want to test this theory out soon, but looking at the anechoic frequency options ShadyJ revealed in his review of the X13, it does not look difficult to mimic the FR of the PSA SX-15se which is the only sub that I have experienced that is listed in databass (my Rythmik E15HP's being the other option that I find easy to integrate in-room for music.
I haven't looked into the abilities of the SVS DSP systems, but suspect they have this covered as well!

5) I feel that for HT, lots of very deep bass can be fun, so can understand that attraction to ported sub style bass. And also if you want "the club sound" or dubstep it is appropriate, but not for more traditional (and especially acoustic) music. I am 98% music, 2% movies.

6) I wonder if an additional attraction of "near field" subs is by moving them into the center of the room you are typically significantly reducing room gain effects.

7) Josh Ricci has stated that the measured characteristic of subs which we most commonly regard as "tight and musical" is most closely tied to having a FR which puts more emphasis on higher frequencies and less on low frequencies. That info seems consistent with my experience and thoughts on room gain.

In conclusion, for music, a simple sealed sub seems a less expensive path to a good in-room FR. Generally the cost of the extra cabinet (including shipping costs) exceed the cost of the extra wattage of a sealed sub. For HT, I can appreciate more deep bass and the giddy feeling when things that "shouldn't" start shaking. With my sealed subs, I run them ~6dB hotter (using the Denon input dependent setup feature) for DVD's than CD's.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
For me, it Is not about vibrating the floors (slab on grade) but preventing the sub from taking going for a walk. I had (well, still have, waiting in a closet) a Sunfire True Subwoofer (original from 1997) and on carpeted floors, it was just fine. My current media room has tile flooring and the Sunfire, when hit with some strong LFs (think the opening of "Live, Die, Repeat") would do a jig. I purchased an Auralex SubDude and it worked great. When I got my HSU ULS-15 MK2, I thought it would be heavy enough not to do the same, but sure enough... IT is a little to large for the SubDude with its feet on (it just barely sits on all four corners) but again, the problem is solved. As for any "improvement" in sound... Meh.
Curious if you have checked the floor with a level!

Also, if carpet made the difference, you might try bath mats with the rubber grip-stop on the bottom.
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
Curious if you have checked the floor with a level!

Also, if carpet made the difference, you might try bath mats with the rubber grip-stop on the bottom.
With the Sunfire, it was simply a function of the design: 10" high excursion woofer and matching passive radiator in an 11" cube, with a 2700 watt amp. Crank it high enough (much louder than reference) and it will dance on any floor, carpeted or not. The Hsu did not travel anywhere (though, over time I guess it would have) due to an unlevel floor - it just jerked back and forth on the tile floor because of the 15" cone being on the side. I am sure if it was down firing, this would not be the case. Thanks for the tip on the bath mat!
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
I'm still of the same essential opinion, but I believe my understanding of the "why" has evolved.
Here are my thoughts on the matter:

1) I think a simple sealed sub has a better starting FR for music in a typical room. My belief is, after room gain, you get close to a flat FR that only requires modest EQ. More importantly, you do not run much chance of bass being too strong which can totally ruin the overall SQ. This is, IMHO, the least expensive way to get good bass for music in a typical room. I see your sealed Rythmiks as a fantastic sub in your bedroom system with the Ventos!

2) I think a sealed sub w/DSP which has been EQ'ed to be flat in an anechoic chamber can be as bad as a ported sub. This is based on my experience with dual JL Audio e112's and a SVS SB-12plus (although it had a PEQ which could be used to tame the low bass). In principal, I don't like the idea of adding DSP then having to EQ it the opposite direction to get flat response in room.

3) Simple ported subs are much easier tuned to obtain anechoic flat FR. We learned to look for a flat anechoic FR for speakers because at most frequencies room gain is not an issue. However, we know room gain dramatically effects low frequencies in most rooms. Accordingly, I question the wisdom of seeking flat anechoic FR. The lowest level SVS ported subs are good examples of subs that I would absolutely avoid, because they do not offer means to tune the sub to your room. The Dayton SUB1200 is an exception to this rule as they did not use the port to try to get the deepest response they could. It rolls off more close to a typical sealed sub.
Note: While I question the wisdom of using anechoic flat FR as a measure of how good the FR of a sub is, I do acknowledge for a repeatable measure that will yield similar result measured at different facilities, the anechoic chamber and measurement methods to imitate it are useful.

4) I believe ported subs such as the Outlaw X13 and Hsu models (between two port plugs and EQ options) offer a wide enough array of tuning options to be tuned well in room. I want to test this theory out soon, but looking at the anechoic frequency options ShadyJ revealed in his review of the X13, it does not look difficult to mimic the FR of the PSA SX-15se which is the only sub that I have experienced that is listed in databass (my Rythmik E15HP's being the other option that I find easy to integrate in-room for music.
I haven't looked into the abilities of the SVS DSP systems, but suspect they have this covered as well!

5) I feel that for HT, lots of very deep bass can be fun, so can understand that attraction to ported sub style bass. And also if you want "the club sound" or dubstep it is appropriate, but not for more traditional (and especially acoustic) music. I am 98% music, 2% movies.

6) I wonder if an additional attraction of "near field" subs is by moving them into the center of the room you are typically significantly reducing room gain effects.

7) Josh Ricci has stated that the measured characteristic of subs which we most commonly regard as "tight and musical" is most closely tied to having a FR which puts more emphasis on higher frequencies and less on low frequencies. That info seems consistent with my experience and thoughts on room gain.

In conclusion, for music, a simple sealed sub seems a less expensive path to a good in-room FR. Generally the cost of the extra cabinet (including shipping costs) exceed the cost of the extra wattage of a sealed sub. For HT, I can appreciate more deep bass and the giddy feeling when things that "shouldn't" start shaking. With my sealed subs, I run them ~6dB hotter (using the Denon input dependent setup feature) for DVD's than CD's.
I would love to demo several pairs of subs to chase down those theories but I believe both ported and sealed subs can likely do well. I do think going with ported subs helps the larger spaces pressurize to get to the fun LFE in action movies with little or no sacrifice to accuracy. I also keep 3 rooms going so one is set to music and 2 are set to home theater. :)
 
CB22

CB22

Senior Audioholic
@ryanosaur pulled the trigger. Do theses subs come on a on a pallet? @105 pounds were you able to get these things inside by yourself?
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
@ryanosaur pulled the trigger. Do theses subs come on a on a pallet? @105 pounds were you able to get these things inside by yourself?
105 pounds means 52.5 pounds to "tip/roll" them where ever you want them to go!
Once out of the box, carpet slider cups (for the feet) from HD work well (and also do fine on hardwood, but they have felt slider cups for that).
https://www.amazon.com/SuperSliders-4714295N-Reusable-Furniture-Sliders/dp/B0777S8G1Q/ref=asc_df_B00PKRI992/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167125445179&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9949192066125185105&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010844&hvtargid=pla-273260119599&th=1
Also, can pick up a piano dolly from Harbor Freight cheap if you plan to play with position a lot:
https://www.harborfreight.com/18-In-x-12-In-1000-lbs-Capacity-Hardwood-Dolly-63098.html

Since these are down-firing subs, you'll want to make sure the ports or driver is not being blocked if you use the piano dolly.
 
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CB22

CB22

Senior Audioholic
Nice
105 pounds means 52.5 pounds to "tip/roll" them where ever you want them to go!
I have a pretty decent dolly. But getting these suckers up the stairs will be a bit tricky.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
As long as the box is long enough to span three steps (which the X13 certainly is),leave it in the box and lay the box down on the steps. As long as you push low on the box, you should be able to push it up the steps fairly easily. If you push high on the box, you run the risk of flexing the box so the leading corner of the box digs into the next "step edge".

Want to make sure we are talking the same type of dolly:
 
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ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
@ryanosaur pulled the trigger. Do theses subs come on a on a pallet? @105 pounds were you able to get these things inside by yourself?
Nope... no pallet. FedEx ground from oregon. If you can get access to an appliance dolly, that might be better than pushing it up stairs... especially if you have to turn corners. And very much so if you have to do it by yourself.
The boxes are large... like dishwasher large. I'll try to follow up with a photo. Double boxed, excellent packaging... assuming these b-stocks arent packaged differently.
Easiest un-boxing is to lay it on its side, cut first box open top and bottom... then cut bottom open of second box, and tuck the flaps underneath. Tip upright so that no flaps are under the sub. Lift first box off, then second box. do not destroy them until you know for certain everything is good. ;) Walking the sub isn't so bad, but the box is just too big for one guy too handle safely. I did. But I REALLY don't recommend it. If you didn't read James' review he gives some details too, about the unboxing. ;)
Just make certain your home for FedEx that day! :D
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Nope... no pallet. FedEx ground from oregon. If you can get access to an appliance dolly, that might be better than pushing it up stairs... especially if you have to turn corners. And very much so if you have to do it by yourself.
The boxes are large... like dishwasher large. I'll try to follow up with a photo. Double boxed, excellent packaging... assuming these b-stocks arent packaged differently.
Easiest un-boxing is to lay it on its side, cut first box open top and bottom... then cut bottom open of second box, and tuck the flaps underneath. Tip upright so that no flaps are under the sub. Lift first box off, then second box. do not destroy them until you know for certain everything is good. ;) Walking the sub isn't so bad, but the box is just too big for one guy too handle safely. I did. But I REALLY don't recommend it. If you didn't read James' review he gives some details too, about the unboxing. ;)
Just make certain your home for FedEx that day! :D
@CB22 , meant to add... before you tip the box back upright... unless you have help... remove the bottom foam so that the sub will be on its feet when you pull everything else away. :)
 
CB22

CB22

Senior Audioholic
The boxes are large... like dishwasher large.
Yep! that's dishwasher size alright. Definitely taking a "sick day" for this delivery. I'll try to get a friend to help out but if I'm looking at these for longer than an hour, my DIY instincts may kick in. Looks like the'll arrive next Thursday.

Thanks for the tips guys!
 
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