Of Experts, Advice, Marketing and $1500

[LitoGeorge]

I thought I might sneak some time off work to have some fun

Further listening:

Setup: All on "Unplugged" setting on Onkyo, with Audyssey XT32 running the show. All 5 channels active. Q control on HSU set low which gives tight base, with phase at 0. Only running at <25% of HSU output, as per Audyssey setup. Toed the 340SE's more aggressively to centre listening position - even past centre. Raised the 340SE Centre up 3 inches to just below Tv - which puts all tweeters currently at the same height (this resulted in an appreciably better sound!). No Dynamic Volume and Equalisation.

Adele: Mp3 file format through Airplay. Not bad, but I really have to push these speakers to 80% + of the Onkyo output to really hear them. They are genuinely quiet. If someone whispers (seriously!) to me at 30% of the Onkyo output, they drown out the speakers. Woah!

Bruno Mars: Flac format. Pretty good, not what I am looking for. Once again, 80% plus brings out whats going on, not so much before (ps: I have excellent hearing, often hearing things others cannot hear, well before they finally get to hear it)

Angie Stone: Flac + Mp3 format, same album in both formats. I am pleased to report that I can hear a pretty obvious difference here - the FLAC beats compressed music everyday all day. Yay! Sadly, its only at high volumes I can hear the nuances.

More Clarence Tom Ashley (an album recorded around the Great Depression) - at 75% of output volume, on "Unplugged" setting on the Onkyo, I can hear the nuances. Its MP3 sadly, but a hard to find album online. I can lots of static from the original LP on the recording, which kind of makes me smile.

Fleetwood Mac: FLAC file: once again, the speakers only shine at + 75% output. What gives with that?

George Micheal: FLAC: exactly as above with FMac.

Daft Punk: FLAC: hard hitting, excellent: best effect +75%.

Etta James Essentials: FLAC: truly excellent, with great seperation of vocals/ instruments. I tried to go down to 60% of volume, and its muddy and blended. Push it to 80%, and its clear and separated. Amazing. Its like two different Amps almost.

Hall and Oates: FLAC: same damn thing - although this time I hear lots of distortion at lower levels plus distortion. Crap recording!

LMFAO: FLAC: super tight bass, super impressive, fantastic. Once again, plus 75% = super

Mumford and Sons: FLAC: My kind of seperation and clarity at +80%. Not a dime before. I can hear the pick of the guitar, then drum reverberations, et al. Excellent.

Ok thats quite a range. Last thing I noticed that at +75% volume, there were quite a few occassions where the trebles hurt my ears for a second. Thats about 10 times through multiple swops of tracks from the above mentioned artists, and loud enough that I am going to switch off now, because ears are sore. Hmm.

To sum up: loud gives clarity, but trebles can really hurt (too much) on occassion. Harsh might be a way to describe this experience.

Hope that makes sense. I am hoping to listen at reasonable levels while hearing everything with a large soundstage, and my most important goal is clarity.

Thanks!



Its absolutely nothing special at less than 75% of volume, much like a HTiaB.

 

[cpp]

George in looking at your picture which I enhanced below, how high are those L&R front speakers ? and what source are you using to play FLAC just wondering

 

[shadyJ]

Could it be a receiver setting? You might try running the receiver in direct 2 channel mode for some of the music to be sure there isn't some kind of processing by the receiver. If it sounds a lot better in direct mode than I would bet that the receiver is doing something goofy to the sound. I can't believe that the Ascends wouldn't be a big leap above any HtiB speaker set.

 

[LitoGeorge]

CPP, the height of the Ascends are just below ear level at present. Their speaker stands (which I have paid for) are on back order, will be available end Jan.

Shady, I just played Prometheus through "Pure Audio" - and I have to say that I like it a lot better. For the first time, I can actually hear the surrounds. I will redo the test. What is going on that the receiver gives me such shitty performance? What have I missed?

I have a question: at 83% of max volume, I am hearing (on occasion), about three clicks straight after each other through the sound system. Its only happening in bass heavy scenes. And not at lower volumes. Yes, there are loose things (doorknobs in particular rattle with the HSU) and I knocked some empty speaker boxes down today after a heavy bass test. Just curious what the clicking could be?

ps: Dwaleke - smart suggestion trying another receiver. I might just do that, though I hate just trying out stuff from box stores.

 

[shadyJ]

If there really is an improvement with direct mode, than the receiver is doing some processing on the sound somewhere that is mucking it up. You have to be sure there is an improvement though, these sort of things are very susceptible to imagination. Quickly switch back and forth from direct to other modes during some revealing music or movie scene to make sure that improvement actually exists. If you can confirm it does, you will need to go through the settings to see what could be the cause, whatever is affecting the natural sound. I can't help too much here, because I don't know all the various settings in your receiver. Here is an extensive discussion about the Onkyo 818, you might ask there or do a search to get to the bottom of your problem. The difference between the Ascends and dinky HTiB speakers should be night and day (except maybe if your hearing is messed up).

 

[LitoGeorge]

ShadyJ, thank you for that link. I've not had the time to go through it, but I will be taking a big read on it.

I discovered what I think is 50% of the problem. The speaker settings were all messed up. Distance to speakers was out by 40%, the speaker output levels were bizarre, the surrounds were so minimised that their sound literally disappeared. Thanks Audyssey 32XT, you were crap.

After physically measuring the distances to speakers, they sound a lot better. HTiaB is a far cry now, I am super pleased to report.

Questions:

a) what crossover should the LFE be set at?
b) what hz should the fronts/centre/surrounds be set at? (THX is at 80hz)
c) on different music recordings (FLAC via VLC using Airplay), I noted that the rears can be truly be heard or alternatively be almost silent, dependant on artist. Reason? (same hz setting btw)
d) what ohm should the Ascends be at? 4/6ohms?

Had a good chuckle when I discovered this stuff. I am starting to enjoy the speakers now, and they are much louder than before at a lower volume. Even the little lady noticed well!

 

[shadyJ]

a: 80 hz
b: 80 hz, all of them
c: there could be a few different reasons for this. Were you flipping through different listening modes?
d: 6 ohms.

 

[LitoGeorge]

Thanks ShadyJ,

answer c: no I wasnt, I would expect a clicking noise if I was flipping through listening modes. The clicking sound is coming through the subwoofer and fronts it seemed. Scared me too. What are your best thoughts there?

Tx

 

[hizzaah]

My receiver does the clicking and a slight pause in sound while switching through listening modes as well.. It also did this with the 1909 Denon I've got. While watching tv, it cycles through different modes when it switches from the HD show to non hd commercials.. its annoying at times

 

[shadyJ]

Thanks ShadyJ,

answer c: no I wasnt, I would expect a clicking noise if I was flipping through listening modes. The clicking sound is coming through the subwoofer and fronts it seemed. Scared me too. What are your best thoughts there?

Tx

What mode was it in? If it was in a mode that matrixes surround sound from a two channel source, I have noticed that some two channel sources seem to have a lot more content in the range of frequencies that the surround sound algorithm draws from to create the additional channels. I think this happens more in the Dolby surround modes. I wouldn't worry about it very much.

 

[LitoGeorge]

Thanks guys. ShadyJ, I think it was Pure Audio and then secondly on Unplugged. I am scared to try again in all honesty. There's an outside chance it was happening on All Channel Stereo, but I am unsure of that.

 

[LitoGeorge]

Some opinions please:

I have an Onkyo 818. I love playing music through an app on my phone etc, and controlling it anywhere seamlessly in the house. Video is excellent, and the receiver shines at +75% output and beyond. Prior to that, it lacks detail, "size" and depth. Imo.

I've been looking at the Outlaw 975 pre and the Emotiva XPA-5 amp. If I get that combo, I absolutely expect a better soundstage, more clarity and way more power to the speakers. Is there any benefit to keeping the Onkyo? (I got it at a pretty darn good price). I want to eventually add speakers to the top and middle floor of my house, and I'll need more than the 7channel output of the Outlaw.

How would they all work in concert? Hope someone can educate me please (and yes, I've read all the reviews, which is why I chose those two)

 

[LitoGeorge]

Bump for advice regarding the questions above please

Questions:

1) Is there any benefit to keeping the Onkyo? (I got it at a pretty darn good price). I want to eventually add speakers to the top and middle floor of my house, and I'll need more than the 7channel output of the Outlaw.

2) How would they all work in concert? Hope someone can educate me please (and yes, I've read all the reviews, which is why I chose those two - edited: although I am open to a UMC200 XPA5 combo too)

 

[shadyJ]

The Outlaw and Emotiva will likely do nothing for you, qualitatively speaking. The Emotiva will allow the speakers to get somewhat louder, but that is it. On the other hand, if there is something wrong with the Onkyo, then getting a functioning receiver and amp ought to fix the problem. But if you want more detail, you will need better speakers. Better speakers won't be cheap, sorry to say. It could also be the source, if the sound files you are playing back are low bitrate mp3s or streaming, you will find lossless or high quality compressed to be a big difference. Anyway, If you want a big improvement on your setup, a separate amp and pre-amp is not the way to go.

 

[shadyJ]

OK, I just looked back and you are using uncompressed sound files, nevermind that.

A couple more things:

Supposedly the Ascend speakers are pretty neutral sounding. Maybe neutrality isn't what you are really after. That is not a bad thing, I don't run any of my systems neutral either, except for one of them. I prefer my bass a bit hot. It sounds like you might want a speaker that is a bit more recessed. It sounds like the Ascend speakers are too sibilant for you. You might look at Monitor Audio, or Magnapan or Martin Logan. Or anything that uses ribbon tweeters or planer speakers. What can also tame sibilance is dynamic compression. There may be something like that in your Onkyo receiver, like a 'night mode' or other modes that use dynamic compression. You cab also buy separate compressors and limiters like some of these. That is a bit more involved, but personally I like monkeying around with sound gear, it can be fun.

 

[hizzaah]

My Onkyo HTiB sounded like garbage and I was disappointed with it until I turned on the dynamic audio setting to low.. Still using the same receiver and I had to remember to set that back to light when I reset everything for my Ascend speakers. I thought I had been taken on the speaker until I remembered that setting!

 

[LitoGeorge]

The Outlaw and Emotiva will likely do nothing for you, qualitatively speaking. ....Anyway, If you want a big improvement on your setup, a separate amp and pre-amp is not the way to go.

After reading Dwaleke's comments on how the sound changed when he had the Onkyo vs UMC200 acting as pre-amp, it certainly stands to reason there might be something there, which is why I wrote what I did above.

The XPA5 can do 200W all channels driven while the Onkyo does 135W? Quite a bit louder, but truthfully not what I am looking for.

Its the sound difference that I am seeking as mentioned above.

 

[LitoGeorge]

Hizzaah, thanks mate - got the dynamic audio settings turned to low or even zero. Playing again, and while I have that 50% improvement in sound, I'm still seeking the balance.

I think speaker placement will help a lot, but I am curious about a different pre/amp

 

[shadyJ]

There was a conversation about the differences amps make here recently. I can't believe that your Onkyo would be so poorly made that you could hear the difference if you hooked your speakers into separate amps. A mid level Onkyo's amp should be fine. As for the Outlaw pre-amp, you may take a hit in sound quality since the Outlaw doesn't have room correction, and the Onkyo has Audyssey MultiEQ 32Xt, which is pretty sophisticated room correction software. I think your scheme is really taking a step backward, not forward.

 

[LitoGeorge]

Gotcha - that makes sense to me when comparing amps.

But what about Pre's though Shady? I would imagine that processing signals differently would result in a different sound.