Obama snubs our greatest ally

[rnatalli]

Words have defined meanings. I didn't invent the definition of the word. I've been watching the political economic situation in the US unfold and certain key features, some of which I listed, are falling in line with that particular definition.

It's been my observation that people are keen to vote away their freedoms, usually under the guise of voting away their neighbor's freedoms. Perhaps you think it cannot happen in the US. Maybe you're right, maybe not. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Call me a canary in the coal mine or call me crazy...it's no difference to me.

Oops... I think I emphasized the wrong word in my post. I meant to emphasize "been." I think you meant to say "seen."

 

[Davemcc]

Oops... I think I emphasized the wrong word in my post. I meant to emphasize "been." I think you meant to say "seen."

How about a theory I've been developing about a theme I've seen developing. Works for me.

 

[sploo]

You don't happen to be a judge on American Idol named Simon Cowell....are you?

Naaa. My trouser line is nowhere near that high .

Wouldn't mind the guy's cash though. Having said that... Rumsfeld inflicts war on the world, Cowell inflicts us with some of the worse manufactured pap pop music known to man. Sometimes I wonder which is the greater evil...

My liberal use of smileys indicates jocularity and that I think you and I could have an enjoyable time of it debating...but not in this format.

Absolutely. And I think this is a big problem with this format - the number of times I see people get aggressive because they take something someone's written the wrong way, then write something themselves without thinking how it'll come across. Basically, forums seem to be full of people that assume the other guy will understand what you're trying to say, but won't then give the other guy any slack with what he's written.

I do take a lot of time when I write a forum post, trying to decide if parts would come across the wrong way, or could be misinterpreted. So, if I come across as an a-hole... it's a well planned a-hole .

Nonetheless, I have to say that most people who elaborate what is right or wrong about issues, particularly outside of their culture, are biased by what actually is presented to them. (In fact, I think you'll agree with that notion.) What you probably won't agree with is that you are coming across with a noted bias of your own and stating opinions as facts. That's a debate no-no.

Unless someone is incredibly well travelled, yes, it is very hard to have a deep understanding of other cultures. I'd feel I'm above average - having done a reasonable amount of traveling, and worked for many years with people from all round the world. Granted, it's no substitute for spending real time in a country though.

As for bias/facts - certainly, we're all susceptible to presenting from our own point of view. However, I have repeated noted things that I'm not presenting as fact, and those things that I have are based on significant evidence and a cross section of media reports. Doesn't mean to say they are fact, but the likelihood is surely reasonably high.

 

[sploo]

Politics sucks and has no place on this forum it happens every time politics is brought up. Buckeye nut has always been trying to stir it up here with political statements and blurbs like the OP. I am out ,but everybody else should be too..IMO of course Mike C where are ya buddy......

Unreal.freak beat me to a reply on this - but I second his point. Given the possibly contentious nature of this thread, it's been amazingly civil, and many people are contributing with some very interesting and well thought out posts. I certainly wouldn't want to see it locked.

 

[Davemcc]

Basically, forums seem to be full of people that assume the other guy will understand what you're trying to say, but won't then give the other guy any slack with what he's written.

No worries there. Tomorrow is one of the greatest forum conversationalists you're never going to meet.

I do take a lot of time when I write a forum post, trying to decide if parts would come across the wrong way, or could be misinterpreted. So, if I come across as an a-hole... it's a well planned a-hole .

I saw no a-hole-ness in your posts but I did notice they were well written. I'm glad you decided to join in the fray.

many people are contributing with some very interesting and well thought out posts.

I'll step aside and let them post.

 

[Nemo128]

The US is a massively powerful country, with incredible capacity for good. The problem is that, rather than being respected by your enemies and loved by your friends, the actions taken by US governments often result in you being hated by your enemies and feared by your friends. Sometimes that power is the problem - friendly nations know the US has the strength to do what it wants, even in the face of opposition. So, you can either stand behind the US (like Blair did with Iraq), try to stand in front and stop it (no one's stupid enough to do that), or stand at the side and criticize (most of the rest).

I have to share this.

The woman did a study abroad in Italy during her undergrad in architecture at the University of Sienna. In discussions with the locals there, she received one pretty unanimous response for their dislike of Americans:

"It's not that we have Americans. You just have the power to do so much good, but you do so little."

To love my country and fellow citizens, I'm not required to love those in power, be they bankers, politicians, or law enforcement.

 

[Nemo128]

Which is why we must work hard to help the poor. Or they will commit crime and fill our prisons.

And fill our morgues, but not with themselves. The empoverished far outnumber the economically able.

 

[Davemcc]

You just have the power to do so much good, but you do so little."

Then when you try to use that power for good, you've got the locals dancing on your shot-down helicopters. It's a no-win situation.

 

[JLMEMT]

Of course I won't be proud of Obama if he screws things up! Why the hell would I be proud of someone who failed?!?! I am proud of Obama for overcoming racism and attaining the highest office in the country, just as I am proud of the American people for overcoming racism by voting for him.

Are you still proud of Bush?

And to answer your other post, you obviously have no idea what it's like to be a minority in America, so let me educate you. I am half black and half white, but I consider myself black. I honestly cannot give you a good reason for my determination, it's just the way I feel. I have dark skin and hair, so I sure don't look white. But I can sure tell you that, in MY experience, having a drop of black in you in America makes you black. I base that on the way I have been treated as an American citizen.

So because I consider myself black, I also consider Obama black.

Okay. I think to think that the American people overcame racism to elect him is a joke. If anything all of the media BS about racism may have "guilted" a few into electing him, but he did not change racism in America. In fact my opinion is that he will do more to divide than unite reguardless of his retoric.

I personally work very hard not to let sterotypes creap in and judge each person as an individual. I won't say it never happens, but I try. Personally I don't like Obama. As stated earlier I don't care if he is purple. I truely don't think that I would have even thought of Obama as "black" if it weren't for all of the media BS that rammed it down my throught. I don't like lazy people, don't really care for stupid people, and can't stand those that always expect something for nothing and have that sense of entitlement. But I truely don't care what color those people are. I have interacted with many different races and try to treat them all fairly. But if I get attitude for no reason I might just give it back. That is just human nature. But for someone to start out with me that way because someone once treated them badly who happens to be the same color as me is racism. I have experianced a fair ammount of racism and predjudice as well. I was formarly a police officer and many people would judge me and hate me with no idea who I was. If they gave me a chance many learned that I wasn't that bad, and often wasn't what they expected. I tried to give them a fair chance, even after they may have broken a law, reguardless of race or economic status. My opinion was that you may have screwed up, but that alone doesn't make you a bad person. I at least would treat you decently and show you some basic respect as a human.

I don't have a problem with Bush. Obviously he is a horrible public speaker and that is a bit embarassing. I am certianly not going to claim that he did it all right, but overall I really don't think that he did that bad either.
People love to blame Bush for at least eight years, but seem to forget that the last 2 years the Democrats controlled congress and even most of the Rupublicans wouldn't help him out. Bush was a lame duck the last two years and really had ZERO power. So say what you want, but the Democrats including Obama, are responsible for at least the last two years.


I can understand then that you relate to Obama. I don't have a problem with that. I still question a bit if you may "trust" him for the wrong reasons though. But only you know that, and you have to make your own choices.
Maybe mine are misguided, but I have my reasons and contrary to what the media and many of his supporters would have you believe it truely has nothing to do with the color of his skin.

 

[Nemo128]

Exactly, what do we owe them? Money? Power? Take away their motivation to work for what they have, instead of dealing drugs, killing each other, stealing from each other, pounding out generations of fatherless kids?

You're generalizing, which is a large part of how perception is skewed. Like anyone else, no family, neighborhood, city, county, state or country is 100% bad. We don't ALL drive SUVs for daily commuting. Some of us need a truck for our job/business.

We're not ALL cowboys, you know.

Um... ever hear of hypocrisy?

 

[Nemo128]

Then when you try to use that power for good, you've got the locals dancing on your shot-down helicopters. It's a no-win situation.

You honestly believe that? You believe our intention for going into a war with Iraq was to liberate the Iraqi people and instill democracy? SERIOUSLY?

 

[Matt34]

You honestly believe that? You believe our intention for going into a war with Iraq was to liberate the Iraqi people and instill democracy? SERIOUSLY?

I didn't read his thread but from what you quoted I would venture to say he was referring to Somalia.

 

[Nemo128]

Sorry, I guess I should get used to out-of-context off-topic posts... I thought we were talking about current issues...

 

[markw]

Didn't we try that already?

I didn't read his thread but from what you quoted I would venture to say he was referring to Somalia.

Does the name "Mogadishu" ring a bell? No, we're damned if we do, and we're damned if we don't.

It may be time to let the UN and other countries who are quick to criticize/condemn us do a little of the world's police work and spend some of the money we expend on that on our own problems. I'm pretty sure our infrastructure could use a little buttressing.

And, as for the turn to racial content in this thread, yes racism is still rampant in this country, but it's not always where many would want to think. I have to wonder how many blacks would have voted for Obama had he not been black.

 

[highfigh]

Um... ever hear of hypocrisy?

I have- care to elaborate your point?

 

[highfigh]

It may be time to let the UN and other countries who are quick to criticize/condemn us do a little of the world's police work and spend some of the money we expend on that on our own problems. I'm pretty sure our infrastructure could use a little buttressing.

And, as for the turn to racial content in this thread, yes racism is still rampant in this country, but it's not always where many would want to think. I have to wonder how many blacks would have voted for Obama had he not been black.

As much as the rest of the world respects the UN and it's false teeth, I'm not sure that would work. I agree that we should take a breather and fix some things at home.

As far as the racial comments, I don't want anyone to think I'm racist, although my not wanting to give people everything they need will probably look that way. I remember going to my dad's business in what's basically the inner city. He grew up only a few blocks from his shop, so he was "home", in a way. The customers were a wide mix of people and many were black. I wish we had more like them now. They may not have had a lot, but they worked for it and were proud of what they had. This is in Milwaukee, which has been called "the most segregated city in the US". We had the riots in '67 and in the following two years, he lost enough business that he sold it. In the link below, MKE was called the "Selma of the North". We had such a liberal welfare system that tens of thousands came from all over to get their free stuff, which costs us dearly, even now.

http://ww2.madonna.edu/NEH/12/riots.htm

I mentioned a former neighbor who said he has a major problem with black people and I was really hoping for a reaction to that, but since I didn't get one, I'll add that he's black, too. Great people- according to the son, the wife is a little nuts, but it's always good to see them.

As for your last sentence, I think it would have been far less. They counted many people who hadn't bothered to vote before- some for years and some had never and just like most other elections, voter fraud was a problem, although not as bad as some years. The thing he brought is hope. Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, Charlie Rangell and Al Sharpton don't bring that. They make a lot of noise but what I really don't see much of these days is good leadership in the black community, here in MKE or nationally. I used to see Bill Cosby, Jim Brown and Charles Barkley speaking about how people should stay in school, focus on family, stay clean, don't frump up a bunch of kids with several women and not join gangs. Cosby and Barkley have had run-ins with the law or claims against them, Brown is pretty invisible and I don't see anyone taking their places.

I don't have a problem with Obama being black, I just don't like how he wants to do things. Not too thrilled with some of his associations, either.

 

[sploo]

No worries there. Tomorrow is one of the greatest forum conversationalists you're never going to meet.

Good comment

I'll step aside and let them post.

Actually, I was referring to your posts, as well as Tomorrow's (and some others).

The woman did a study abroad in Italy during her undergrad in architecture at the University of Sienna. In discussions with the locals there, she received one pretty unanimous response for their dislike of Americans:

"It's not that we have Americans. You just have the power to do so much good, but you do so little."

I'm guessing you mean "hate" not "have".

Of course you could ask, just what has Italy done recently that's good for the world... or France, or Germany, or Spain, or the UK? There are genuine concerns from some quarters about certain US activity, but there is of course always a significant amount of jealousy & dislike of the current superpower, just because it's the superpower.

As people have pointed out... Somalia. That for me was one of the times the US really tried to do the right thing, and got dragged into a huge mess.

 

[darien87]

Okay. I think to think that the American people overcame racism to elect him is a joke. If anything all of the media BS about racism may have "guilted" a few into electing him, but he did not change racism in America. In fact my opinion is that he will do more to divide than unite reguardless of his retoric.

Where did I say that Obama changed racism? Maybe my statements were a little too general and got misinterpreted. What I meant was that the very fact that Obama got elected in the first place, tells me that there is a sea change happening in America that I would never have believed possible 10 or even 5 years ago. I honestly never expected to see a black President elected in my lifetime. I simply thought that racism was still prevalent enough in this country to prevent that from happening. I am ecstatic to have been proven wrong. I also never expected to see a woman President elected in my lifetime, and that might have also happened.

Call me naive if you will, but Obama's election has given me new hope for America. For the first time in a VERY long time, I have a bit of optimism for the future. Of course that optimism is tempered with apprehension, as we face the biggest economic crisis I have ever seen. But if Obama's election has shown me anything, it is that just about anything is possible.

 

[lsiberian]

You honestly believe that? You believe our intention for going into a war with Iraq was to liberate the Iraqi people and instill democracy? SERIOUSLY?

Assuming people are doing things for the wrong reasons is dangerous and misleading. The reason we went to Iraq was clear and obvious. We thought they had WMDs we wanted to get to them before they were used on us in a terrorist attack. To assume that Bush knew otherwise is giving him far too much credit.

What happened after doesn't change the reason. Though it does question the intelligence and wisdom of those directing the military action. Made up ideas or arguments shouldn't be accepted just like Bose claims.

I think the problem wasn't the initial act but the managment of the reconstruction. I also think we should have let the inspectors finish the job. But impatience is common in war. Patience usually allows for a peaceful resolution.

 

[Tomorrow]

Call me naive if you will, but Obama's election has given me new hope for America. For the first time in a VERY long time, I have a bit of optimism for the future. Of course that optimism is tempered with apprehension, as we face the biggest economic crisis I have ever seen. But if Obama's election has shown me anything, it is that just about anything is possible.

This post may be a little off-topic and a bit philosophical. Please pardon me (or don't read it). But I feel I need to talk about something.

The above post seems the perfect reflection of the point that perception is everything. In politics, in religion, in loudspeakers, in art, in the economy, in racism...in life...it's not the reality that appears to matter to most people. It's the perception of that reality by the participants. It's the rose-colored glasses effect, only in all colors of glass.

With regards to racism, you perceived racism in the U.S. from your particular perspective, Darien. The reality was quite different, as you came to learn. The millions of people who voted in the presidential election didn't suddenly become non-racist. We were, by and large, already a largely non-racist country. We were willing to accept anyone we felt possessed the wisdom to best lead the country. That was our real cultural bias. That was the reality. This doesn't mean that racist acts aren't perpetrated. They are! (Perception rather than reality usually causes those negative events too, by the way.) There certainly are some racists out there...black and white. I'm certain you've met many of them. But the soul of this country does not embrace racism.

One of these days, we will learn how to unshackle ourselves from these biased perceptions. I am not singling you out...just using your post as the immediate example of how our society, our country is seen in ways that just aren't factual. It's the same reason I took after sploo with his comment about Americans being ignorant sheep being led down mentally drowsy paths by those in power. And I'm certainly not immune to the ignorance of considering my perceptions to be somehow equal to reality. That's baloney and I struggle against it.

Because of this nature of ours to be biased, the media becomes hugely influential. It helps shape our perception by what it presents. It must be watched VERY critically for the nuggets of truth amidst the pictures and words.

Lastly, I also have a suggestion regarding your concern about the economy. The banks, the stock market, investments...all parcels of the economy perform to expectations...or more precisely perceptions. If you perceive the economy with optimism, it's a fabulous time to buy. If you perceive it with fear, it's time to sell. What to do? Perceive it as recovering and strong, if you can. Look optimistically at the issues and events. And if a lot more people do the same, voila...it will be thus.

End of goofy, philosophical diatribe.