Obama snubs our greatest ally

[lsiberian]

This post may be a little off-topic and a bit philosophical. Please pardon me (or don't read it). But I feel I need to talk about something.

The above post seems the perfect reflection of the point that perception is everything. In politics, in religion, in loudspeakers, in art, in the economy, in racism...in life...it's not the reality that appears to matter to most people. It's the perception of that reality by the participants. It's the rose-colored glasses effect, only in all colors of glass.

With regards to racism, you perceived racism in the U.S. from your particular perspective, Darien. The reality was quite different, as you came to learn. The millions of people who voted in the presidential election didn't suddenly become non-racist. We were, by and large, already a largely non-racist country. We were willing to accept anyone we felt possessed the wisdom to best lead the country. That was our real cultural bias. That was the reality. This doesn't mean that racist acts aren't perpetrated. They are! (Perception rather than reality usually causes those negative events too, by the way.) There certainly are some racists out there...black and white. I'm certain you've met many of them. But the soul of this country does not embrace racism.

One of these days, we will learn how to unshackle ourselves from these biased perceptions. I am not singling you out...just using your post as the immediate example of how our society, our country is seen in ways that just aren't factual. It's the same reason I took after sploo with his comment about Americans being ignorant sheep being led down mentally drowsy paths by those in power. And I'm certainly not immune to the ignorance of considering my perceptions to be somehow equal to reality. That's baloney and I struggle against it.

Because of this nature of ours to be biased, the media becomes hugely influential. It helps shape our perception by what it presents. It must be watched VERY critically for the nuggets of truth amidst the pictures and words.

Lastly, I also have a suggestion regarding your concern about the economy. The banks, the stock market, investments...all parcels of the economy perform to expectations...or more precisely perceptions. If you perceive the economy with optimism, it's a fabulous time to buy. If you perceive it with fear, it's time to sell. What to do? Perceive it as recovering and strong, if you can. Look optimistically at the issues and events. And if a lot more people do the same, voila...it will be thus.

End of goofy, philosophical diatribe.

The problem is that everything is truly perception. You perceive certain waves in certain ways. Sound waves are just a waves perceived via your ear sensors. Color waves are just a waves. Our perception of them are based on the waves that go through our circuitry which is composed of waves.

In reality all you see or know is based on perception. So your reality is based on your perceptions.

For example if all you see on a coke can is the label coke. Then you will say that a coke can is a can with the lable coke. If I see just the nutritional facts. I will say it's a can with such and such i words on it. We could disagree and even fight that our perception is right, but in reality both are correct based on perspective.

Even better analogy.

Many of us are in a relationship. And you may notice there are times when she is cold and you are hot in the same house. Is she wrong?(well of course) Not in reality though. You are both right. That's because your perceive temperature a different way. Of course some perceptions need correction. Like Bose and Monster.

 

[Tomorrow]

The problem is that everything is truly perception. You perceive certain waves in certain ways. Sound waves are just a waves perceived via your ear sensors. Color waves are just a waves. Our perception of them are based on the waves that go through our circuitry which is composed of waves.

In reality all you see or know is based on perception. So your reality is based on your perceptions.

For example if all you see on a coke can is the label coke. Then you will say that a coke can is a can with the lable coke. If I see just the nutritional facts. I will say it's a can with such and such i words on it. We could disagree and even fight that our perception is right, but in reality both are correct based on perspective.

Even better analogy.

Many of us are in a relationship. And you may notice there are times when she is cold and you are hot in the same house. Is she wrong?(well of course) Not in reality though. You are both right. That's because your perceive temperature a different way. Of course some perceptions need correction. Like Bose and Monster.

Well stated! But we have to agree to one fundamental...that there is an "out there" out there to be perceived. The trick is to try to be as bias-free in that perception as possible. One perceives the room as 'cold', but it's quite more accurate, unbiased, and perception-free to say that 'the temperature of the room is 67 degrees F.'

What I was suggesting was to look for a more bias-free understanding rather than bias-filled perception.

Using Darien's example again...you would simply say that his perception (of national racism) changed as a result of the election. (And that's true...but not very informative.) I'm saying that if he challenged the biases within his belief system or perception of things (likewise sploo, me, and everyone else), he could have more clearly seen the reality of racism in our culture and had more hope all along (before the election).

 

[sploo]

It's the same reason I took after sploo with his comment about Americans being ignorant sheep being led down mentally drowsy paths by those in power.

Good post. But remember I didn't actually say that. I don't believe that is the case, so wouldn't have (intentionally) written something to that effect.

I suspect my point was that politicians are very skilled at the art of deception and presentation, which I guess is another way of affecting people's perception.

 

[JLMEMT]

Where did I say that Obama changed racism? Maybe my statements were a little too general and got misinterpreted. What I meant was that the very fact that Obama got elected in the first place, tells me that there is a sea change happening in America that I would never have believed possible 10 or even 5 years ago. I honestly never expected to see a black President elected in my lifetime. I simply thought that racism was still prevalent enough in this country to prevent that from happening. I am ecstatic to have been proved wrong. I also never expected to see a woman President elected in my lifetime, and that might have also happened.

Call me naive if you will, but Obama's election has given me new hope for America. For the first time in a VERY long time, I have a bit of optimism for the future. Of course that optimism is tempered with apprehension, as we face the biggest economic crisis I have ever seen. But if Obama's election has shown me anything, it is that just about anything is possible.

I didn't say that you said Obama changed racism, but I did more or less interpret it that way. I may have misunderstood your intent.

But I also agree with Tomorrow. Those people did not change and become "non racist", they were not to begin with. I agree that there is still racism in this country, and anywhere, but I think it often isn't where the common perception says that it is. I do not doubt that you have experienced racism, but as I said I have also though the common perception would be that I haven't or can't.

My point is that Obama didn't overcome racism, or at least not any that has changed drastically lately. The racism that he "overcame" has been steadily receding for quite some time. I would also argue that he likely didn't have to overcome most of that like some others truly have. My opinion is that much of what Obama "overcame" was all in his head. He felt like he should have some of that as many other people similar to him did. But I think he had far less than the average, and likely you, due to his privilege, etc. I could be wrong. I realize that I do not know him and have not lived his life, so I could have a totally wrong perception. That is why it is my opinion.

There is still plenty of racism in America, far more than I would like, but Obama was on the "right side" of that racism. That is how he "overcame" racism and was elected.

Regardless of how it is spun I think that you will have a hard time saying that Obama has had a hard life.


I would not call you naive, I am glad that you are able to have hope from this. That is good for you. It obviously has to do with differing perspectives, probably as close to 180 degrees as possible.

I wish that I could say the same, but from my position hope would be foolish. I will still be happy to be wrong, but I see little chance of that any longer.


I do not mean any of this on a personal level, and I hope it is not taken that way! I appreciate the very diverse perspectives represented in this discussion. I always enjoy a good discussion with someone that has quite different views than my own, and that is happening here.

 

[Tomorrow]

Good post. But remember I didn't actually say that. I don't believe that is the case, so wouldn't have (intentionally) written something to that effect.

I suspect my point was that politicians are very skilled at the art of deception and presentation, which I guess is another way of affecting people's perception.

I was using a little...poetic license.

 

[unreal.freak]

This post may be a little off-topic and a bit philosophical. Please pardon me (or don't read it). But I feel I need to talk about something.

The above post seems the perfect reflection of the point that perception is everything. In politics, in religion, in loudspeakers, in art, in the economy, in racism...in life...it's not the reality that appears to matter to most people. It's the perception of that reality by the participants. It's the rose-colored glasses effect, only in all colors of glass.

With regards to racism, you perceived racism in the U.S. from your particular perspective, Darien. The reality was quite different, as you came to learn. The millions of people who voted in the presidential election didn't suddenly become non-racist. We were, by and large, already a largely non-racist country. We were willing to accept anyone we felt possessed the wisdom to best lead the country. That was our real cultural bias. That was the reality. This doesn't mean that racist acts aren't perpetrated. They are! (Perception rather than reality usually causes those negative events too, by the way.) There certainly are some racists out there...black and white. I'm certain you've met many of them. But the soul of this country does not embrace racism.

One of these days, we will learn how to unshackle ourselves from these biased perceptions. I am not singling you out...just using your post as the immediate example of how our society, our country is seen in ways that just aren't factual. It's the same reason I took after sploo with his comment about Americans being ignorant sheep being led down mentally drowsy paths by those in power. And I'm certainly not immune to the ignorance of considering my perceptions to be somehow equal to reality. That's baloney and I struggle against it.

Because of this nature of ours to be biased, the media becomes hugely influential. It helps shape our perception by what it presents. It must be watched VERY critically for the nuggets of truth amidst the pictures and words.

Lastly, I also have a suggestion regarding your concern about the economy. The banks, the stock market, investments...all parcels of the economy perform to expectations...or more precisely perceptions. If you perceive the economy with optimism, it's a fabulous time to buy. If you perceive it with fear, it's time to sell. What to do? Perceive it as recovering and strong, if you can. Look optimistically at the issues and events. And if a lot more people do the same, voila...it will be thus.

End of goofy, philosophical diatribe.

This is one of the most thought out posts in this thread, WoW!! I tried to give you a green tile but i spent my last one on Darien. I couldnt agree with you more on this perspective

Thanks,
Tommy

 

[Tomorrow]

I hope my post hasn't been misunderstood. It has been pointed out to me in a PM discussion that minorities are marginalized and discriminated against in many and significant ways. I have absolutely no argument with that proposition and did not intend for my post to suggest otherwise.

Our country...ALL countries to be exact, exhibit racial and cultural biasing and discrimination against minorities. In the U.S., racial prejudice (the issue I used in my post to discuss bias vs. reality), has been sickeningly prevalent for a couple of centuries, and remains so.

Just to be clear, my comment about Darien was only an example of how perceived biases can be a bit off the mark from reality...and that critical thought and consideration about social issues is necessary if we're going to understand ourselves and continue to grow as individuals and as a culture. I also suggested that this process of biased thought was ubiquitous and also used sploo and myself as examples of how it can cause divisiveness.

This discussion isn't as off-topic as it may seem. Even neutral comments can easily come off as insults or taunts with unintended consequences. That is why I believe the administration needs to be concerned about how it presents itself to all foreign nations. Afterall, words...only words...have started many a fight or even war. Words...gifts. No harm done? No big deal? Maybe not.

 

[sploo]

gifts. No harm done?

I've got this big hollow wooden horsey thing to give. If you'd just like to wheel it in...

 

[Tomorrow]

I've got this big hollow wooden horsey thing to give. If you'd just like to wheel it in...

Now that there....THAT'S funny! Where's my green chiclet button?! You're definitely *growing on me*, sploo.

EDIT: Not like some nasty, green fungus...but in a good way.

 

[markw]

Exit polls: How Obama won.

My take is that most people were dissatisfied with the performance of our leadership and simply voted against what they thought would be continuing the same direction. Most demographics show a fairly logical disagreement in beliefs and the numbers pretty much reflect this.

Note I said "most demographics".

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15297.html

 

[Rickster71]

This post may be a little off-topic and a bit philosophical. Please pardon me (or don't read it). But I feel I need to talk about something.

The above post seems the perfect reflection of the point that perception is everything. In politics, in religion, in loudspeakers, in art, in the economy, in racism...in life...it's not the reality that appears to matter to most people. It's the perception of that reality by the participants. It's the rose-colored glasses effect, only in all colors of glass.

With regards to racism, you perceived racism in the U.S. from your particular perspective, Darien. The reality was quite different, as you came to learn. The millions of people who voted in the presidential election didn't suddenly become non-racist. We were, by and large, already a largely non-racist country. We were willing to accept anyone we felt possessed the wisdom to best lead the country. That was our real cultural bias. That was the reality. This doesn't mean that racist acts aren't perpetrated. They are! (Perception rather than reality usually causes those negative events too, by the way.) There certainly are some racists out there...black and white. I'm certain you've met many of them. But the soul of this country does not embrace racism.

One of these days, we will learn how to unshackle ourselves from these biased perceptions. I am not singling you out...just using your post as the immediate example of how our society, our country is seen in ways that just aren't factual. It's the same reason I took after sploo with his comment about Americans being ignorant sheep being led down mentally drowsy paths by those in power. And I'm certainly not immune to the ignorance of considering my perceptions to be somehow equal to reality. That's baloney and I struggle against it.

Because of this nature of ours to be biased, the media becomes hugely influential. It helps shape our perception by what it presents. It must be watched VERY critically for the nuggets of truth amidst the pictures and words.

Lastly, I also have a suggestion regarding your concern about the economy. The banks, the stock market, investments...all parcels of the economy perform to expectations...or more precisely perceptions. If you perceive the economy with optimism, it's a fabulous time to buy. If you perceive it with fear, it's time to sell. What to do? Perceive it as recovering and strong, if you can. Look optimistically at the issues and events. And if a lot more people do the same, voila...it will be thus.

End of goofy, philosophical diatribe.

Thanks RJ, well done!

The very well thought out writings of RJ about perception, seems like the perfect time to mention this book 'Propaganda' written in 1928 by the nephew of Sigmund Freud, Edward L. Bernays.
I'd like to recommend it as a great read.
He was the most sought-after public relations counsel, and was hired by major corporations, and the government to help with political propaganda.

He is known as,The Father of Spin.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society," Bernays argued. "Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. . . . In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons . . . who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind." Quote Edward L. Bernays

 

[sploo]

EDIT: Not like some nasty, green fungus...but in a good way.

I can usually be removed with a little Dettol and a sponge.

 

[darien87]

I hope my post hasn't been misunderstood. It has been pointed out to me in a PM discussion that minorities are marginalized and discriminated against in many and significant ways. I have absolutely no argument with that proposition and did not intend for my post to suggest otherwise.

Our country...ALL countries to be exact, exhibit racial and cultural biasing and discrimination against minorities. In the U.S., racial prejudice (the issue I used in my post to discuss bias vs. reality), has been sickeningly prevalent for a couple of centuries, and remains so.

Just to be clear, my comment about Darien was only an example of how perceived biases can be a bit off the mark from reality...and that critical thought and consideration about social issues is necessary if we're going to understand ourselves and continue to grow as individuals and as a culture. I also suggested that this process of biased thought was ubiquitous and also used sploo and myself as examples of how it can cause divisiveness.

This discussion isn't as off-topic as it may seem. Even neutral comments can easily come off as insults or taunts with unintended consequences. That is why I believe the administration needs to be concerned about how it presents itself to all foreign nations. Afterall, words...only words...have started many a fight or even war. Words...gifts. No harm done? No big deal? Maybe not.

No skin off my nose.

I try to never base my opinions on anything other than my own personal experiences. So I base my opinions on the prevalence of racism in this country on things that have happened to me. The election of Obama has shown me that racism may not be as rampant and I had feared, but I know it still exists. I happen to live in California, one of, if not THE most progressive and integrated state in the country. If racism exists here, I can only imagine what things are like in the South.

What I think happened was a combination of things: First, racism was not as prevalent as I believed. Second, I think that many people were simply fed up with Bush politics and wanted to vote against what they felt was a continuation of his failed policies. So although I think that America has come a long way, in regards to race relations, I don't believe that we are near the Utopia that Obama's election might suggest.

But hey, I bought an American car a couple of months ago, so I've got to be somewhat optimistic about the future.

 

[Davemcc]

Then when you try to use that power for good, you've got the locals dancing on your shot-down helicopters. It's a no-win situation.

You honestly believe that? You believe our intention for going into a war with Iraq was to liberate the Iraqi people and instill democracy? SERIOUSLY?

Really, I was thinking of Somalia.

But let's look at America's foreign engagements.
Korea - US saved South Korea. North Korea is impoverished. South Korea is a healthy democracy.
Vietnam - US lost. Vietnam is an impoverished communist state.
Somalia - US lost. Somalia remains an impoverished chaotic state.
Iraq - US won. The jury is still out. With any luck it will become a healthy democracy.

 

[unreal.freak]

If racism exists here, I can only imagine what things are like in the South.

It would surprise you that racism is no worse here than anywhere else. Just because we are from the South, doesnt mean we are bad folks Im shocked to hear you profile us like that

Peace,
Tommy

 

[highfigh]

I've got this big hollow wooden horsey thing to give. If you'd just like to wheel it in...

I thought it was a big rabbit. Maybe it was a large wooden badger since the rabbit smashed when it landed.

 

[Rickster71]

If racism exists here, I can only imagine what things are like in the South.

Irony:
Our friend Darien speaks of racism.
I'm sure there is much stereotyping that goes along with racism.
Doesn't seem to stop our friend Darien from stereotyping the south.
Anyone else enjoying the irony here?

 

[highfigh]

With the number of people who still fly the Confederate flag, how could anyone think that's the only thing from the past that they won't give up? Talk to more people from the South and you'll get a better idea of their way of thinking.

IMO, racism isn't gone but it has changed. Where it used to be very overt, it's more subtle, now and that's not just in the South.

 

[Alex2507]

Racism and stereotyping are two different things.

I have been discriminated against in the south for not being from the south.

The south has earned her stereotypes IMO.

 

[highfigh]

I met someone from Michigan who raced cars as a hobby and he went to Tennessee to visit his sister, who had married a guy from some small town. They went at a bar in his truck, which had a crossed pair of American flags on the doors. A local went up to him and said "I don't much care for what you got on your truck but we'll give you a pass because you're with him", as he pointed to the brother in law. He said he wanted to tell the guy "Dude, the war is over. Get used to it.". Some people are still pissed about the outcome.