lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Either way, I’m open to seeing other systems and learning from others.
We could both like or dislike our differing systems but I’m guessing he knows how to set up a proper subwoofer system.
Nah, he's not into subs much. He has some apparently decent transmission line speakers to help out with the low end. His musical taste is definitely not mine, and his gear wouldn't suit my purposes.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Nah, he's not into subs much. He has some apparently decent transmission line speakers to help out with the low end. His musical taste is definitely not mine, and his gear wouldn't suit my purposes.
And you know that how?

The bass extension of the bass lines can compete with pretty much any sub around. Since the lengths of the line conform to the wavelengths being produced just like a pipe organ, the system does not need a lot of power to produce room shaking bass when called for.

FR of main speakers in room.



The reason commercial subs need so much power is that they are fighting, and in the main loosing, the battle with nature's laws. So the length of the bass line is half the wavelength of the lowest note to be reproduced. This is just like a stopped pipe on a pipe organ. The difference is these pipes are reverse tapered to broaden the frequency range of support. This was all worked out by Paul Voight around 90 years ago. Correct physics will perform as natures laws accurately predict. This is why there are often known as Voight pipes.

Those lines will best any sub I have ever heard.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
And you know that how?

The bass extension of the bass lines can compete with pretty much any sub around. Since the lengths of the line conform to the wavelengths being produced just like a pipe organ, the system does not need a lot of power to produce room shaking bass when called for.

FR of main speakers in room.



The reason commercial subs need so much power is that they are fighting, and in the main loosing, the battle with nature's laws. So the length of the bass line is half the wavelength of the lowest note to be reproduced. This is just like a stopped pipe on a pipe organ. The difference is these pipes are reverse tapered to broaden the frequency range of support. This was all worked out by Paul Voight around 90 years ago. Correct physics will perform as natures laws accurately predict. This is why there are often known as Voight pipes.

Those lines will best any sub I have ever heard.
90dB isn't particularly impressive to start.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
90dB isn't particularly impressive to start.
Measuring the FR is not a power test! I have never run any part of this system out of "gas". I have never heard any section audible distort even when playing loud.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Measuring the FR is not a power test! I have never run any part of this system out of "gas". I have never heard any section audible distort even when playing loud.
What is loud for you, tho? Let's see a test at 110db.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
What is loud for you, tho? Let's see a test at 110db.
That is not the way measurement systems work. But Squishman will tell you that this system can get " ear bleeding loud" when he listens to his discs.

You can see that the measurement system maxes out at 95 db. After that it is off the scale. You obviously don't understand how you do loudspeaker measurements.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
That is not the way measurement systems work. But Squishman will tell you that this system can get " ear bleeding loud" when he listens to his discs.

You can see that the measurement system maxes out at 95 db. After that it is off the scale. You obviously don't understand how you do loudspeaker measurements.
I understand fine. I just doubt your system is up to it. Your musical tastes are so limited, it probably doesn't matter.
 
G

Gio-G

Audioholic Intern
Sorry guys,

I missed these comments.

All I'm looking for is the easiest and least expensive way to integrate two subwoofers into my system and improve on what I already have.

If I can run my S7Ts full range with subs without detracting at all from the current sound while adding some deeper bass, I'll be very happy.

If it is going to be a hassle I'll pass.

Perlisten and Arendal both seem to think I can do that using their software and apps.

Arendal 1723 S 1 subs are priced attractively and have good reviews and measurements.

If a MiniDSP is a must, I'll consider one as they seem affordable to an extent.

I don't know how to use one nor do I know how to take measurements or how to read measurements.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Pay no attention to the last few posts, they aren't relevant to your questions.

The answers you arrived at before haven't changed. Yes, you can run your Perlistens full range. No, you don't need any other gear to add subs. Yes, it's a slight hassle to dial it in, but your rig is awesome so you don't want to do it haphazardly. We can help you tackle that. Heck, the good doc may even make a house call!
 
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B

boult0029

Audiophyte
Thanks for the detailed write-up. It sounds like you've already put together a fantastic system. If I were in your position, I'd start with the dual subs using their built-in DSP and see how well they integrate before adding a miniDSP or external crossover. You can always add more processing later if you feel it's necessary. Sometimes keeping the signal path simple is the best approach. Good luck, and I'd be interested to hear what you end up choosing.
 
G

Gio-G

Audioholic Intern
Thank you both.
I suspect I’m about a year away but this is encouraging.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Been thinking about this some more, and had some additional ideas for you to chew on, inspired by the lack of proper bass management in your front end and limits on what you can tweak because of that.

The first thing that came to mind are potential risks to your speakers from high spl playback of bass heavy content. Your Perlisten mains are a ported design. I'm not sure how much you know about how the hole in a box works, but briefly, below port tuning the drivers and ports will go increasingly out of phase and decouple from each other. Of specific relevance to you, if you allow your Perlistens to run full range and the source contains frequencies below the speaker's port resonance it will result in excessive cone motion but no additional output, which will wildly increase IM distortion (that cone motion will modulate all higher frequencies that the woofers also produce) and risk damage to the drivers by exceeding mechanical limits. Now, as I alluded to upthread, this probably only matters if you're really cranking it. But it is the nature of the beast with reflex loaded speakers. The easy and inexpensive solution would be to use a line level hpf between your preamp and the amps driving the Perlistens, creating a protective "rumble filter" but otherwise allowing the Perlistens to dig as deep as they can. An outfit called Harrison Labs sells them, they're called "F-mods", and they come in a variety of different values (to effect different hpf cutoff frequencies) and in both rca and balanced flavors. The cutoff freq are a function of the f-mod values and the input impedance of your amp. The appropriate value f-mods would allow your Perlistens to run down to their native roll-off, and reduce potentially harmful frequencies below that. F-mods do exactly what they claim to, and add zero noise or distortion, as confirmed by Amir over at ASR. They cost about $30. Cheap insurance for your kick ass Perlistens.

Next topic, the subs. Few subs these days cater to us luddites with two channel rigs trying to add some subwoofage. The Arendals you're looking at are feature laden, but they lack any sort of hpf on their line level outputs, they're just pass-through (thus the suggestion for the f-mods). Many subs, including the Arendals, have built in dsp, which cause a teeny, tiny bit of latency. Your upstream kit lacks the ability to compensate for that. Now, that latency may or may not be an issue. If it is, it will make blending the subs more challenging. Solution? Place the Arendal or similar subs closer to the mlp. That may not be an option though. Alternate solution: consider subs that don't have dsp, e.g. Hsu subs, that don't exhibit the latency of dsp equipped subs. Such subs could be placed more in line with your intended placement (diagonally, or otherwise out on the periphery of the room). Along with placement considerations, it would involve a trade off between easier integration on the one hand, and potentially beneficial features that dsp offers such as PEQ on the other.

I mention that second point based on my own recent experience replacing subs in a retro two channel rig essentially similar to yours.
 
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G

Gio-G

Audioholic Intern
Been thinking about this some more, and had some additional ideas for you to chew on, inspired by the lack of proper bass management in your front end and limits on what you can tweak because of that.

The first thing that came to mind are potential risks to your speakers from high spl playback of bass heavy content. Your Perlisten mains are a ported design. I'm not sure how much you know about how the hole in a box works, but briefly, below port tuning the drivers and ports will go increasingly out of phase and decouple from each other. Of specific relevance to you, if you allow your Perlistens to run full range and the source contains frequencies below the speaker's port resonance it will result in excessive cone motion but no additional output, which will wildly increase IM distortion (that cone motion will modulate all higher frequencies that the woofers also produce) and risk damage to the drivers by exceeding mechanical limits. Now, as I alluded to upthread, this probably only matters if you're really cranking it. But it is the nature of the beast with reflex loaded speakers. The easy and inexpensive solution would be to use a line level hpf between your preamp and the amps driving the Perlistens, creating a protective "rumble filter" but otherwise allowing the Perlistens to dig as deep as they can. An outfit called Harrison Labs sells them, they're called "F-mods", and they come in a variety of different values (to effect different hpf cutoff frequencies) and in both rca and balanced flavors. The cutoff freq are a function of the f-mod values and the input impedance of your amp. The appropriate value f-mods would allow your Perlistens to run down to their native roll-off, and reduce potentially harmful frequencies below that. F-mods do exactly what they claim to, and add zero noise or distortion, as confirmed by Amir over at ASR. They cost about $30. Cheap insurance for your kick ass Perlistens.

Next topic, the subs. Few subs these days cater to us luddites with two channel rigs trying to add some subwoofage. The Arendals you're looking at are feature laden, but they lack any sort of hpf on their line level outputs, they're just pass-through (thus the suggestion for the f-mods). Many subs, including the Arendals, have built in dsp, which cause a teeny, tiny bit of latency. Your upstream kit lacks the ability to compensate for that. Now, that latency may or may not be an issue. If it is, it will make blending the subs more challenging. Solution? Place the Arendal or similar subs closer to the mlp. That may not be an option. Alternate solution: consider subs that don't have dsp, e.g. Hsu subs, that don't exhibit the latency of dsp equipped subs. It would be a trade off between easier integration on the one hand, and potentially beneficial features that dsp offers such as PEQ on the other.

I mention that second point based on my own recent experience replacing subs in a retro two channel rig essentially similar to yours.
Yikes,

First, thanks for sticking with this thread I appreciate the suggestions and advice.

Sadly, I don't really know what all of that means I'm sorry to say. I have no schooling or experience in these areas.

Maybe I'm better off skipping the subs altogether? Or I say Fuc-IT and spend the money, buy a crossover and don't run the mains full range. That seems sad because I love them but whatevs.

If I were to add 2 subs, I was thinking of a diagonal setup as that wouldn't cause too many issues with room aesthetics.

I don't do a lot of extremely loud listening. I like to feel a thump and a shake now and then and get the speakers driving a bit but my wife works from home and I don't do a lot of high volume stuff.

Anything that Amir approves of that costs $30 is something I'd consider. I just don't know what they are and how to use them.

Are you mentioning the use of those gadgets with subs, or just in general? I haven't run these speakers loud enough to reach any danger levels. I think one of my deepest bass tunes is Paula Cole's TIGER.

I do have the ports open, and I think Gene and another reviewer here didn't really recommend sealing the ports.

I'm definitely an audio simpleton so the easier the better.

The subs, if I do add them are probably a year off. I just bought the new speakers and the amps are coming in the fall.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Ooof. Didn't mean to scare you off subs or overload you with too much info.

No, your speakers, good as they are, aren't quite full range, and bass provides a disproportionate contribution to the enjoyment, so I think you should definitely get some subs. My goal is only to share info to help you make the most informed decisions and for you to get the most music listening pleasure at the end of the day. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible, both from complexity of the kit and from underlying justifications, while keeping all your considerations in mind.

It doesn't seem like f-mods are an absolute necessity, just cheap margin of safety for such top tier mains like you have. They're little gadgets that plug into the end of the cables coming from your preamp, with the other end plugging into your power amp driving the Perlistens. They are not connected to the sub at all. (They do make lpf versions, but any sub you get will have lpf already, so that would be redundant.) They're old school, cheap solutions to some of the problems that rigs lacking bass management present.

Sealing the ports will only change the response of the speaker (for the worse- higher f3, shallower roll-off), but filtering out low freq content before it's amplified offers genuine protection to your speakers, and won't truncate their extension.

You have a year or so to learn the things you need to, and once you do the tetris pieces will fall into place. Don't hesitate to ask questions, that's what this place is for.
 
G

Gio-G

Audioholic Intern
Ooof. Didn't mean to scare you off subs or overload you with too much info.

No, your speakers, good as they are, aren't quite full range, and bass provides a disproportionate contribution to the enjoyment, so I think you should definitely get some subs. My goal is only to share info to help you make the most informed decisions and for you to get the most music listening pleasure at the end of the day. I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible, both from complexity of the kit and from underlying justifications, while keeping all your considerations in mind.

It doesn't seem like f-mods are an absolute necessity, just cheap margin of safety for such top tier mains like you have. They're little gadgets that plug into the end of the cables coming from your preamp, with the other end plugging into your power amp driving the Perlistens. They are not connected to the sub at all. (They do make lpf versions, but any sub you get will have lpf already, so that would be redundant.) They're old school, cheap solutions to some of the problems that rigs lacking bass management present.

Sealing the ports will only change the response of the speaker (for the worse- higher f3, shallower roll-off), but filtering out low freq content before it's amplified offers genuine protection to your speakers, and won't truncate their extension.

You have a year or so to learn the things you need to, and once you do the tetris pieces will fall into place. Don't hesitate to ask questions, that's what this place is for.
No worries.

Seriously, thank you for even taking the time.

I can get overwhelmed when I think about spending more $$ and wanting to do things right. Semi OCD here making me always want to do things right, and having no idea what I'm doing when it comes to subs, measurements and the technical stuff I probably overthink things.

What is LPF? Low something frequency?

Just a guess.

I have this thread for reference so I can always check back and hit you up when I get closer.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Yikes,

First, thanks for sticking with this thread I appreciate the suggestions and advice.

Sadly, I don't really know what all of that means I'm sorry to say. I have no schooling or experience in these areas.

Maybe I'm better off skipping the subs altogether? Or I say Fuc-IT and spend the money, buy a crossover and don't run the mains full range. That seems sad because I love them but whatevs.

If I were to add 2 subs, I was thinking of a diagonal setup as that wouldn't cause too many issues with room aesthetics.

I don't do a lot of extremely loud listening. I like to feel a thump and a shake now and then and get the speakers driving a bit but my wife works from home and I don't do a lot of high volume stuff.

Anything that Amir approves of that costs $30 is something I'd consider. I just don't know what they are and how to use them.

Are you mentioning the use of those gadgets with subs, or just in general? I haven't run these speakers loud enough to reach any danger levels. I think one of my deepest bass tunes is Paula Cole's TIGER.

I do have the ports open, and I think Gene and another reviewer here didn't really recommend sealing the ports.

I'm definitely an audio simpleton so the easier the better.

The subs, if I do add them are probably a year off. I just bought the new speakers and the amps are coming in the fall.
I don't think a crossover is a good idea. Those speakers are very capable, so just gently extending their range with subs is a good way to start.

In any event I have quite a few Shure SR 106 crossovers hanging around, that are easily modified to the precise requirements, by changing some internal components. Do not seal the ports, that is daft. As I said before vented volumes and sealed volumes are way different. So I am certain the ported enclosure is the correct volume, but the sealed volume will be the wrong volume. In my view this is a strike against Perlisten for even suggesting the idea.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
What is LPF? Low something frequency?
Low pass filter. hpf= high pass filter. Oh, mlp= main listening position. Ask about any abbreviations or terms that need explaining.

A lot of what you need to know is the jargon. After that is the theory and application, knowing how all of this works.

I might suggest Toole's book if you really want to geek out with this. The most recent edition has an expanded section on bass and adding subs compared to earlier editions. It's still accessible to a novice, and will transform your understanding of both the terminology and how it all works. Highly recommended. Linky.
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
I'm definitely an audio simpleton so the easier the better.
Well, I think you're underselling yourself. I mean, just look at your room and system. For such a simpleton you have a lot already working in your favor. Your speakers have extraordinarily good performance, very linear, very good polars, very "room friendly", dynamically capable. You chose quite well. Your room layout is symmetrical, also good, and the peaked ceiling should help you avoid some of the modal lumpiness that standard rectangular rooms exhibit. Kudos, man.
 
G

Gio-G

Audioholic Intern
Thanks again to ALL respondents.

I'm slowly learning a few things, and yes, the jargon is probably something I'll catch up on eventually.
 
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