No thoughts and prayers today?

[markw]

If I understand you correctly, in two seconds an officer should do the following?

1. Get an overview of the situation
2. Observe something threatening
3. Make a decision that drawing a gun is warranted
4. Draw the gun
5. Aim the gun
6. Make a decision whether or not innocents could be harmed by shooting
7. Make the decision to either fire the gun or give warning or do something else

Seems to me that must be a highly trained officer to manage these steps in just two seconds, or am I wrong? The reaction time for a driver to brake is at best 0.7 seconds with an average of 2.3 seconds, and I bet that most drivers could put the foot on the brake much faster than an officer doing step 4 and 5 above.

https://copradar.com/redlight/factors/

Spoken like a person who has never been is such a situation and got all their training from watching television.

What do you suggest for "something else" considering he's most like;y firing on innocents while you decide what to do? Oh, that's right. Stand still and get shot, right?

 

[markw]

Breaking news! Kill count in Chicago for the weekend so far is eleven!!! And, it's still not over. Think more laws or screenings on gun sales would have prevented this? I guess y'all still believe in the Easter Bunny too.

https://pjmedia.com/trending/11-shot-dead-63-wounded-in-chicago-over-the-weekend-america-yawns/?fbclid=IwAR3h4A9OqR6tcF9_k2zqobeaxlZIwJ6xYjwWQBKxO5_EgG2QZNe4RQlfqG8

 

[Old Onkyo]

I think the police should just draw their guns, start shooting and ask questions later.

Some do....depends on the target.

 

[Trell]

Some do....depends on the target.

Sadly, that happens, but the poster I replied to did not get the sarcasm.

Over here in Europe the news about US police killings is, of course, sensationalized and selective, but there is an perception that US police is prone to use deadly force before other de-escalation attempts have been tried.

Below is quotes from an article, made in 2015: http://theconversation.com/why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many-compared-to-european-cops-49696 [edit: Added italics and quotes to make clear, I hope, that below is actually quotes and not my commentary]

"Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke was charged with first degree murder November 24 in the death of Laquan McDonald. A video released by police shows Van Dyke shooting the teenager 16 times.​

​

Van Dyke is an extreme example of a pattern of unnecessary deadly force used by US police. American police kill a few people each day, making them far more deadly than police in Europe.​

​

Historic rates of fatal police shootings in Europe suggest that American police in 2014 were 18 times more lethal than Danish police and 100 times more lethal than Finnish police, plus they killed significantly more frequently than police in France, Sweden and other European countries.​

​

As a scholar of sociology and criminal justice, I recently set out to understand why rates of police lethality in the US are so much higher than rates in Europe.​

...​

​

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents. Data are based on most recent available. US: 2014; France: 1995-2000; Denmark: 1996-2006; Portugal: 1995-2005; Sweden: 1996-2006; Netherlands: 2013-2014; Norway: 1996-2006; Germany: 2012; Finland: 1996-2006; England & Wales: 2014." ​

​

​

​

 

[Trell]

I'm surprised that this thread hasn't been locked, considering the threats and insults that have been flying around. The dissension reminds me of the scene with picket lines outside the White House from the movie "Seven Days in May". Thankfully there aren't any wooden picket signs in a forum thread.

At least one poster is off his rocker, that's for sure.

 

[Trell]

deleted

WTF is wrong with you?

 

[highfigh]

If I understand you correctly, in two seconds an officer should do the following?

1. Get an overview of the situation
2. Observe something threatening
3. Make a decision that drawing a gun is warranted
4. Draw the gun
5. Aim the gun
6. Make a decision whether or not innocents could be harmed by shooting
7. Make the decision to either fire the gun or give warning or do something else

Seems to me that must be a highly trained officer to manage these steps in just two seconds, or am I wrong? The reaction time for a driver to brake is at best 0.7 seconds with an average of 2.3 seconds, and I bet that most drivers could put the foot on the brake much faster than an officer doing step 4 and 5 above.

https://copradar.com/redlight/factors/

Assume, for a second, that Police officers are trained to react to the sound of gunfire. Then, assume the 2nd officer was paying attention.

You inferred too much from 'a couple of seconds'. Would it be better if I had written 'a few'?

 

[Trell]

Assume, for a second, that Police officers are trained to react to the sound of gunfire. Then, assume the 2nd officer was paying attention.

You inferred too much from 'a couple of seconds'. Would it be better if I had written 'a few'?

Sure.

 

[highfigh]

Sadly, that happens, but the poster I replied to did not get the sarcasm.

Over here in Europe the news about US police killings is, of course, sensationalized and selective, but there is an perception that US police is prone to use deadly force before other de-escalation attempts have been tried.

Below is quotes from an article, made in 2015: http://theconversation.com/why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many-compared-to-european-cops-49696

Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke was charged with first degree murder November 24 in the death of Laquan McDonald. A video released by police shows Van Dyke shooting the teenager 16 times.​

​

Van Dyke is an extreme example of a pattern of unnecessary deadly force used by US police. American police kill a few people each day, making them far more deadly than police in Europe.​

​

Historic rates of fatal police shootings in Europe suggest that American police in 2014 were 18 times more lethal than Danish police and 100 times more lethal than Finnish police, plus they killed significantly more frequently than police in France, Sweden and other European countries.​

​

As a scholar of sociology and criminal justice, I recently set out to understand why rates of police lethality in the US are so much higher than rates in Europe.​

...​

Annual fatal police shootings per million residents. Data are based on most recent available. US: 2014; France: 1995-2000; Denmark: 1996-2006; Portugal: 1995-2005; Sweden: 1996-2006; Netherlands: 2013-2014; Norway: 1996-2006; Germany: 2012; Finland: 1996-2006; England & Wales: 2014.​

​

Ever watch the TV shows 'Cops', 'PD Live' or news from US cities? Enter 'Police Chase' in the YouTube search bar- you'll see why American cops shoot people. You don't have the kind of people we do- they'll do anything to get away, for stupid reasons, and they're not going to go quietly. If necessary, they WILL shoot first, before the Police even catch them, during high speed chases.

If you're a scholar of sociology and criminal justice, why have you missed the fact that this is all because some people don't care about laws?

 

[markw]

And you wonder why police might be ready to shoot?

"When it comes to the circumstances behind non-accidental deaths, 23 officers were killed in the course of investigative or enforcement activities. Another 11 lost their lives in ambushes while six died in pursuits. "

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/08/the-number-of-u-s-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-increased-last-year-infographic/#2627325c1189

 

[highfigh]

The Odessa shooter shouldn't have had access to this gun.

Makes me wonder why he had two tear drops tattooed near his eye.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/nation/2019/09/02/texas-shootings-midland-odessa-what-we-know-rampage-victims/2190982001/

 

[herbu]

It still baffles me why the discussion about gun violence always centers around legislation to control the guns rather than controlling the criminals. I think the answer is simple. Mandatory 20 years in prison for any felony committed with a firearm. And that 20 years on top of whatever other penalty is imposed for the crime itself.

Can anybody tell me why this is a bad idea? (I think I know what the liberals will say.)

 

[highfigh]

It still baffles me why the discussion about gun violence always centers around legislation to control the guns rather than controlling the criminals. I think the answer is simple. Mandatory 20 years in prison for any felony committed with a firearm. And that 20 years on top of whatever other penalty is imposed for the crime itself.

Can anybody tell me why this is a bad idea? (I think I know what the liberals will say.)

Where will they be kept and who will pay for it?

Personally, I think the families of people who actually qualify as victims should get a crack at the criminals who irreparably harmed or killed someone in a closed room. A couple of minutes should be enough. If the person being shot/stabbed/etc is also a criminal, we call it 'even', but the ones who were behind the weapons are still tried for their crimes.

Like this guy-

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/2019/09/02/milwaukee-police-have-made-arrest-shooting-following-crash/2191134001/

 

[Trell]

<snip>
Personally, I think the families of people who actually qualify as victims should get a crack at the criminals who irreparably harmed or killed someone in a closed room. A couple of minutes should be enough. If the person being shot/stabbed/etc is also a criminal, we call it 'even', but the ones who were behind the weapons are still tried for their crimes.

Aside the morality of this and that it sounds positively medieval, wouldn't it run afoul with the Eighth Amendment about cruel and unusual punishment?

 

[Matt34]

It still baffles me why the discussion about gun violence always centers around legislation to control the guns rather than controlling the criminals. I think the answer is simple. Mandatory 20 years in prison for any felony committed with a firearm. And that 20 years on top of whatever other penalty is imposed for the crime itself.

Can anybody tell me why this is a bad idea? (I think I know what the liberals will say.)

Because it's a emotional, knee-jerk reaction to a complicated problem. The easy, constitutional infringing "solution" is to remove firearms from every citizen.

This thread proves that most people that identify as left leaning don't know what they want when it comes to this topic. In one hand they want to disarm everyone, but in the same breathe say the police cannot be trusted and are just out there bagging and tagging people for fun.

It's also interesting that this doesn't make headlines when it happens in the "inner city". This, for example, in a city that doesn't have a single gun shop.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/some-chicago-gun-violence-daily-reality-leaving-same-trauma-mass-n1040231

Address why these things are happening, because if all the focus is on the how, the alternative tools that can be used aren't any better. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/kabul-afghanistan-explosion-attack-dead-latest-us-troops-withdrawal-a9089406.html


Quote from Tim Kennedy:

"In a time where masculinity has been demonized. When identifying toxic masculinity is more celebrated than a man’s achievements. What we are seeing is the most vile form of that rage being realized. Masculinity is about being a protector. Masculinity is about integrity. It is hardwired into every single man’s soul. We all have a choice to fight. We are all warriors on the inside. But if that is suppressed, if that is denied, it manifests in the most unhealthy ways. We have to a have purpose and let that purpose be fulfilled. We have to stop telling our young men to be anything else but a man. Strength is good. A fierce passion to protect the helpless is good. An in-suppressible desire to explore and discover should be encouraged. Danger should be sought out and success should be rewarded. No medals for participation. But elation with every accomplishment. Let’s celebrate what it means to be a man.....Let’s remember what it means to be a man and most of all let us show this next generation what it looks like to be a man. Let them see you fail. Let them see you sweat. Let them see blood. Let them see tears. But most of all let them see us be men."

 

[highfigh]

Aside the morality of this and that it sounds positively medieval, wouldn't it run afoul with the Eighth Amendment about cruel and unusual punishment?

Yes, it would, but how would you make people who don't give a poop about anyone's life, act in a civil manner? They don't care about morals, laws, consequences, how it affects the survivors, how it affects society as a whole or what it costs to mop up the carnage. You think this idea is medieval, what do you call shooting someone in a car, for driving too slowly (in the opinion of the shooter) when she was teaching her son to drive (in the link I posted)?

You're the freaking "scholar", come up with a way to get these asshats to live with others without killing them for inconsequential reasons.

If you really want to get results WRT illegal guns, and it would definitely be on shaky Constitutional grounds unless they have some real, actionable probable cause for the warrants, but the number of weapons they recover would be staggering, do the following-

Lock down the city block by block and search every house, vehicle & person. Deny ingress or egress to the previously searched blocks until the surrounding blocks have been searched. Maintain Police presence until large areas have been searched and set up a perimeter around the larger area until the search is over, watching for criminals who would flee and search their cars. Legal guns can be returned to their owners, illegal guns would be confiscated; felons with guns would be arrested (that's already a felony).

That would remove a lot of people and guns from the cities, but once the searching is over, do you think it will have permanent results? Not a chance- you can't force people to obey laws when they don't want to.

Do you think it would be better if someone sat them down for a nice chat?

 

[Trell]

Yes, it would, but how would you make people who don't give a poop about anyone's life, act in a civil manner? They don't care about morals, laws, consequences, how it affects the survivors, how it affects society as a whole or what it costs to mop up the carnage. You think this idea is medieval, what do you call shooting someone in a car, for driving too slowly (in the opinion of the shooter) when she was teaching her son to drive (in the link I posted)?

I was not talking about the perpetrator's actions but your idea what the society should do to them as medieval. Even your Founding Fathers thought that there should be limits on punishments, hence the Eighth Amendment.

You're the freaking "scholar", come up with a way to get these asshats to live with others without killing them for inconsequential events
.

Erh, you are confusing me with author of the article I quoted from where he wrote he was a scholar. I did write that anything below the link is a quote, that also I indented.

 

[highfigh]

I was not talking about the perpetrator's actions but your idea what the society should do to them as medieval. Even your Founding Fathers thought that there should be limits on punishments, hence the Eighth Amendment.



Erh, you are confusing me with author of the article I quoted from where he wrote he was a scholar. I did write that anything below the link is a quote, that also I indented.

I didn't say they could use tools or other implements- remember, people were drawn & quartered in the past- this would just be a couple of minutes, with bare hands.

What would you consider 'justice' for the perpetrators? Life in prison? They get three meals/day, clean clothes, a place to stay, library & workout privileges and probably, a safer existence. If they join a prison gang, they have an army behind them.

Sorry, I thought that was your last comment- using quotation marks helps when copying/pasting comments from other sources- sometimes, an image causes the text to conform to the same dimensions.

 

[kystorm]

43 shot — 8 fatally — in Chicago Labor Day weekend shootings
Link
wonder why this doesn't make the news?

 

[Ponzio]

43 shot — 8 fatally — in Chicago Labor Day weekend shootings
Link
wonder why this doesn't make the news?

It made the Chicago Sun Times. Your point?