No one read Stimulus Bill

mperfct

mperfct

Audioholic Samurai
Time to move to New Zealand.

The more I hear/read about the economy, and the more the President continues to act on things, the less happy I am that I voted for him. It's going to take a small miracle to pull this country/world of out of this recession/nosedive.

I understand that O (not Oprah) wants to put these plans and get us out quickly, but I have a strong feeling we are just shooting the gun without aiming first.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Has everyone forgotten the extraordinary events that took place on 9/11?
Not at all. I blame Bush for that too.:D

Sorry, please disregard that. My monkey ... you know ... incorrigible.:eek:
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Tomorrow,

I don't know if it's just your new avatar and sig,
but I would really like to get to know you much better.;):D

Sincerely,
Alex:)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Has everyone forgotten the extraordinary events that took place on 9/11? I understand many of you hate Bush, think he's the devil, and all that, but at least be able to give some credit where it's due.
No one has forgotten. Never will. What does 9/11 has to do with?:

IRAQ
Housing
Ruined Credit Markets

is beyond me. I am not being naive in thinking that at least two of the three would have happened under Bush's watch regardless of 9/11.

The fact that our economy survivied, rebounded, and flourished as it did after what happen is an amazing testiment to the people of this country and the administration for providing the leadership, security, and confidence that we needed at that time. It was an absolute pleasure to see everyone in this country put their personal politics aside for the good of our country. Poll after poll after poll showed that it was the President who brought feelings of confidence and security after those events. You can argue about the war all day long and hindsight is wonderful, but the fact remains that despite organized concerted efforts, there were no additional attacks. Just give a little credit for that.
I am not sure what rebound you are speaking about. Was 9/11 supposed to destabilize credit and housing markets right after?


I've heard so many people argue, it's only been a 3 weeks give Obama a chance. Well for Christ's sake, he's already done so much in these 3 weeks, that you have to start scratching your head and begin questioning motives, agenda, as well as the performance of what's taken place. The market has not reacted well at all to the stimulus package and the continued to decline as facts emerged and tanked on the day of signing. People who understand this stuff have already figured out that any benefit will be short term and short lived and that much of the debt is going towards non-essential, non-growth projects. Obama's assertion that "most economists agree" with him is an outright falsehood. I believe there are now more than 200 Nobel Laureate economists who have signed on against this plan because such plans have never once worked in modern history. Infastructure simply does not work as a foundation to create growth and wealth. It doesn't work.
So our national highway system and things like the TVA are a failure?

Now, there's talk of Stimulous Package 2 coming down the pike.

I have yet to hear the President say anything positive about the state of the country.... anything to give the average concerned citizen hope. When the initial machine begins to faulter, it is the confidence level of the consumer which sustains things, which puts a floor on the decline. If you erode that, your downside becomes open ended. I have never heard of any President hedge every decision they make by stating, "it's going to get a lot worse" and use fear inspiring words like 'castastrophe" and "calamity" over and over and over again in every media event where this is discussed. I just find the whole thing quite strange. It's like he's setting a safety net for himself for when it all fails.
So we have to remember that Bush was handed a bad deal of cards with 9/11 and he started two wars, but we can't be cognizant of the fact of what Obama was handed and the fact of a stimulus package?

Add to this some of the other things like politicization of the census which is just unbelievable, how poorly his cabinet picks have gone, the fact that he flew Airforce One to Denver to sign the Stimulus Bill (and Joe Biden took Airforce Two btw) rather than just signing it in the Rose Garden as customary, it just looks like he's not up to the task to me. That once he's beyond the teleprompter and the reach of the handlers, he faulters and shows his lack of judgement.
I believe you are over reacting. I see it as face time where it needs to be spent. Calming the general public.

I swear I hope I'm wrong about everything I do. But think about this...there is a phenomenon called stagflation which in very basic terms means that prices are going up while the economy is going down. It's a very very difficult push/pull effect that's difficult to overcome. We experienced this in the mid 70's due to the spike in oil prices. To put it simply, it's the control of the money supply that prevents us from reaching that point and getting out should we get there. However, due to this massive stimulus package the liberals raced to cram down America's throat, we will be printing money like there's no tomorrow. What does that do? It floods the money supply... the exact opposite of what restarts the engine.
The flooding started before Obama took office. At least some of this package will go towards something other than the banks. You seem to miss that the TARP bailout is a colossal failure.

Because of my job, I look at this stuff all day long and talk to people a 100 times smarter than me. It's times like this where I wish I didn't know what I know. I honestly wish I was not an analyst and knew nothing of finance and economics. For the first time in my adult life, I'm have very doubtful feelings about what the future holds in the next 5-20 years. I just don't know where we'll be as a country. I don't like politicizing things but I hope that the GOP get their act together for a change, and can take back the Congress and repeal a good chunk of this nonesense before it does too much damage. I don't know if that will happen since Republicans are simply inept at relaying their message and have drifted from the core values of conservativism. My wish would be that middle leaning dems will eventually start distancing themselves from the far left style of government and that the Republicans will advance an agenda that can be inclusive of that group.
I personally think the finance experts that are 100 times smarter about this stuff plus the free market mentality of the GOP is what put us in this mess.

Excuse if I don't listen to people making $25million a year while they systematically disassemble our manufacturing, science, research, and send it all over seas.

It's funny that a CEO makes a ton more money by making sure an American worker doesn't.

*Also funny: An American worker should earn less because his counter part in Mexico/Japan/China does. What about adjusting the American CEO's pay with his counter part...
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey didn't we get more change from all the tax cuts. I mean $1000 dollars = a lot of pennies. :D

But Obama said he would bring change to Washington. Gee I wonder what that means. Still he was the best candidate how that other guy even got on the ticket is beyond me. But we had to show the world we could elect a minority and it was a really big deal for many of the people that had been treated like crap in the old days. Plus he will do better with foreign relations.

Honestly I trust the government to govern better than me so I'll let them make the decisions. We have had the same system for a couple of centuries and are the most prosperous nation in the world. Say what you want be pissed all you want, but facts are facts the system works. And if you think our politicians are corrupt take a trip to Africa or Eastern Europe. Our guys are kittens in comparison. Though the Guilded Age is one of the funniest books ever written.
There's a story about some kids who ran for class president. The little boy gave his speech, was applauded and sat down so the little girl could do the same. She promised everyone that they would get ice cream. Asked later, she didn't know where it would come from, how much it would cost or who would pay for it, but that's what she promised and she won the election.

Sound familiar?
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Tomorrow,

I don't know if it's just your new avatar and sig,
but I would really like to get to know you much better.;):D

Sincerely,
Alex:)
Well, Alex. This thread is, after all, about the Stimulus Package. ;):D

Here...you can gaze upon it again. :)
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
This is somewhat of a long post, so indulge me if you will. I’ll try to be specific but I’m in between meetings and have to be quick, but let me first say that there is a very clear division on thinking about our country and what makes it move, grow, succeed, and fail. This divide has gotten greater over the years as politics has partnered with the media. I have no allegiance to any one politician, president, or party. I am a Republican, but I'm a conservative first. My party has let me down over the years as they have strayed from Reagan style values. Bush was not perfect, not by any stretch, but I feel he did what he thought was right based on the information he had, regardless of public opinion. That's what I respect. He didn't poll every 5 minutes. He did what a president should do and that's make decisions. Some were wrong, but there's not a single president who can possibly make all correct ones. Now I could be called a hypocrite, but I think the rush to sign the biggest spending bill in history, one that I don’t think for a minute was properly vetted, understood, even read, nor legitimately (even truthfully) marketed to the people, causes great concern for me. TARP was very different, not even close to the same animal, so that comparative argument holds zero value. The failure of TARP was in the oversight of where that money went and what was done with it. It’s not Bush thing, not a Democrat thing… it’s a collective failure. But clearly, no lesson has been learned from that first TARP release.

Let's be clear about something, this financial crisis got it's foothold from the failed lending standards and policies that elements of the Congress were pushing. The result was a mortgage/housing crisis that began with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.. Who was running these organizations? Many who were tied directly to the Clinton Administration like Raines (who by the way profited quite nicely to the tune of nearly $100mm. Not Bush. Now, the next thing I hear about is regulation.. Bush dismantled regulation that would have prevented this. That's so ignorant I won't even comment on it. There was a push to bring affordable housing to all.... a Democratic agenda... a noble one, but very misguided. This idea than anyone and everyone can own a house is just not realistic as we have now come to find. If you’ve read the transcripts or watched in its entirety the Financial Services Committee session in 2003 where there many questions and concerns raised about Fan/Frd you will see that there several Republicans and some Democrats pushing fairly hard to get answers about what was going on and the health of these proprietary groups the Committee oversaw. Let me share some quotes with you:

Barney Frank (D., MS):
" I worry, frankly, that there's a tension here. The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disaster scenarios. These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis. The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''

Sen. Charles Schumer (D., N.Y.):
I think a lot of people are being opportunistic, . . . throwing out the baby with the bathwater, saying, "Let's dramatically restructure Fannie and Freddie," when that is not what's called for as a result of what's happened here. . . .

Sen. Maxine Waters (D., CA):
Mr. Chairman, we do not have a crisis at Freddie Mac, and in particular at Fannie Mae, under the outstanding leadership of Mr. Frank Raines. Everything in the 1992 act has worked just fine. In fact, the GSEs have exceeded their housing goals. . . .

Then... some who had some courage:

Sen. Chuck Hagel (R., Neb.):
Mr. Chairman, what we're dealing with is an astounding failure of management and board responsibility, driven clearly by self interest and greed. And when we reference this issue in the context of -- the best we can say is, "It's no Enron." Now, that's a hell of a high standard.

Rep. Gregory Meeks, (D., N.Y.): . . . I am just pissed off at Ofheo [Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight] because if it wasn’t for you I don’t think that we would be here in the first place.

The comment has been made several times by folks that “it’s the financial ‘experts’ which caused the crisis.” That’s simple and simply false. The problem is you have politicians who have little or no understanding of finance and economics that are first driven by self-preservation as it relates to their own agenda, re-election, and/or political debt to others. This is not a singular problem as it roams freely in the political zoo.

But let’s be clear… this singular mindset of let’s blame Bush will at some point hold less weight. Obama’s racing light speed to own this Presidency yet he keeps hedging his bet by talking down the country and the former administration to lower expectation. I’m a pretty good study on history and politics and I can tell you this is puzzling approach. I mean understand why he’s does it, but am just a bit shocked at the transparency. Usually, a president does little (which is often times a good thing) and other times they do a lot, but they do it in a commanding, confident style that ushers in confidence to the people. I’ve researched, but have yet to come across any similar method where the President boldly takes unprecedented action followed by the caveat that what he has done will do little and things will likely get worse. For me personally, I don’t feel that’s leadership. This Bill is not leadership. It’s folly. Pure folly. Tell me how giving corrupt groups like ACORN millions of dollars stimulates the economy? If you’ve listened to what Obama has said, he admits that this is less about economic stimulus but more about “reshaping our society and economy.” Does that send a shiver across your shoulders?

There are few easy answers. Do I want to pay for my neighbor’s mortgage? Of course not. But here’s the dilemma, on one hand, if we do that, we teach people that you can make poor, if not well thought out corrupt decisions, with little or no consequence, but we don’t, we risk further economic decline. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know millions of dollars to for an afternoon snack program, while probably needed, has nothing to do with dragging us out of this issue.

We are leaning further and further away from what makes this country great and unique. American Ingenuity. It’s not just about building something unique. It’s about who we are… that we create our own luck, we find a way… as individuals to overcome, adapt, and succeed. I’m concerned about this new mentality to look to someone else to fix our problems. For those criticized the former Administration as being “big brother,” I’m curious as to what everyone thinks about not just having big brother, but big brother owning significant aspects of your daily way of life.

I’d rather have less, even fail, but with the opportunity to have more, than head in the direction we are, where everyone has a hand out and is given the same.


IRAQ
Housing
Ruined Credit Markets

is beyond me. I am not being naive in thinking that at least two of the three would have happened under Bush's watch regardless of 9/11.

I personally think the finance experts that are 100 times smarter about this stuff plus the free market mentality of the GOP is what put us in this mess.

Excuse if I don't listen to people making $25million a year while they systematically disassemble our manufacturing, science, research, and send it all over seas.

It's funny that a CEO makes a ton more money by making sure an American worker doesn't.

*Also funny: An American worker should earn less because his counter part in Mexico/Japan/China does. What about adjusting the American CEO's pay with his counter part...
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
There are few easy answers. Do I want to pay for my neighbor’s mortgage? Of course not. But here’s the dilemma, on one hand, if we do that, we teach people that you can make poor, if not well thought out corrupt decisions, with little or no consequence, but we don’t, we risk further economic decline. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know millions of dollars to for an afternoon snack program, while probably needed, has nothing to do with dragging us out of this issue.
There it is in a nutshell. There are two good examples in the last 30 years that show both paths; Japan and Sweden. Japan dragged their feet and had a decade-long recession. The Swedish government moved quickly and they recovered. Hard to say if what the Swedes did would work here, but there are many similarities in the problems.

The stimulus package is designed to push through some much-needed programs in the country which will stimulate the economy to some degree, but not a fix-all, not even close. What the treasury is working on will have far greater impact. Just like the GOP used fear to push through policies regarding terrorism, Democrats are using fear to push through policies regarding education, energy, etc... The focus is different, but the method is the same. I simply agree with the democrats focus as too many things on the domestic front have fallen way behind.
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Bush was not perfect, not by any stretch, but I feel he did what he thought was right based on the information he had, regardless of public opinion.
We will have to agree to disagree. Bush was left with a budget surplus. The information on WMD and Iraq was known to be in-accurate at best.

Now I could be called a hypocrite, but I think the rush to sign the biggest spending bill in history, one that I don’t think for a minute was properly vetted, understood, even read, nor legitimately (even truthfully) marketed to the people, causes great concern for me. TARP was very different, not even close to the same animal, so that comparative argument holds zero value. The failure of TARP was in the oversight of where that money went and what was done with it. It’s not Bush thing, not a Democrat thing… it’s a collective failure. But clearly, no lesson has been learned from that first TARP release.
Again, we will have to agree to disagree. Fumbling 700 billion is fumbling 700 billion. At least this 2nd time around some real people get some relief and we also get some infrastructure and alternative energy investments. TARP did almost zero for the citizenry.

I agree we are all to blame: The consumer, congress, president.


Let's be clear about something, this financial crisis got it's foothold from the failed lending standards and policies that elements of the Congress were pushing. The result was a mortgage/housing crisis that began with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.. Who was running these organizations? Many who were tied directly to the Clinton Administration like Raines (who by the way profited quite nicely to the tune of nearly $100mm. Not Bush. Now, the next thing I hear about is regulation.. Bush dismantled regulation that would have prevented this. That's so ignorant I won't even comment on it. There was a push to bring affordable housing to all.... a Democratic agenda... a noble one, but very misguided.
Clintons push was for AFFORDABLE housing. Not irresponsible lending... I agree, the sentiment was correct, the application of it totally bungled. To wit I will highlight a piquant line from your first quote:

Barney Frank (D., MS):
" I worry, frankly, that there's a tension here. The more people, in my judgment, exaggerate a threat of safety and soundness, the more people conjure up the possibility of serious financial losses to the Treasury, which I do not see. I think we see entities that are fundamentally sound financially and withstand some of the disaster scenarios. These two entities -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- are not facing any kind of financial crisis. The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.''
The failure here is affordable housing. There was another thread here where I posted about the median cost of a habitat for humanity house.

The comment has been made several times by folks that “it’s the financial ‘experts’ which caused the crisis.” That’s simple and simply false. The problem is you have politicians who have little or no understanding of finance and economics that are first driven by self-preservation as it relates to their own agenda, re-election, and/or political debt to others. This is not a singular problem as it roams freely in the political zoo.
It wasn't politicians that where making NINJA or Zerodock loans. No 'Sword of Democles' was hanging over them by political mandate. The encouragement of mortgage backed securities that were given a 'AAA' rating are hugely to blame. Add in the problems with GM/Chrysler and big manufacturing at the same time we are fighting in two protracted wars and you have a perfect storm. Hardly Clinton's fault.

You can fight (and win) an economic battle on only so many fronts.

I mean understand why he’s does it, but am just a bit shocked at the transparency. Usually, a president does little (which is often times a good thing) and other times they do a lot, but they do it in a commanding, confident style that ushers in confidence to the people. I’ve researched, but have yet to come across any similar method where the President boldly takes unprecedented action followed by the caveat that what he has done will do little and things will likely get worse. For me personally, I don’t feel that’s leadership. This Bill is not leadership. It’s folly. Pure folly. Tell me how giving corrupt groups like ACORN millions of dollars stimulates the economy? If you’ve listened to what Obama has said, he admits that this is less about economic stimulus but more about “reshaping our society and economy.” Does that send a shiver across your shoulders?
Each President will bring their own leadership style. Not everyone will agree. TARP was also pure folly. I want to know giving ACORN millions is worse than giving banks billions.

The items that give me shivers:

Going to war on know false information
The Patriot Act
Warrant-less wire taps
Extraordinary Rendition
A.G Gonzales believing that you don't have a constitutional right of Habeas Corpus

These are all bigger fish to fry than what you are sighting in Obamas stimulus plan.

There are few easy answers. Do I want to pay for my neighbor’s mortgage? Of course not. But here’s the dilemma, on one hand, if we do that, we teach people that you can make poor, if not well thought out corrupt decisions, with little or no consequence, but we don’t, we risk further economic decline. I don’t know what the answer is, but I know millions of dollars to for an afternoon snack program, while probably needed, has nothing to do with dragging us out of this issue.
I don't want to pay for my neighbors mortgage either. What are we going to do though?

We are leaning further and further away from what makes this country great and unique. American Ingenuity. It’s not just about building something unique. It’s about who we are… that we create our own luck, we find a way… as individuals to overcome, adapt, and succeed. I’m concerned about this new mentality to look to someone else to fix our problems. For those criticized the former Administration as being “big brother,” I’m curious as to what everyone thinks about not just having big brother, but big brother owning significant aspects of your daily way of life.

I’d rather have less, even fail, but with the opportunity to have more, than head in the direction we are, where everyone has a hand out and is given the same.
Agreed, 100%.
 
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R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
One thing everyone is learning right now is that you can't fight wars without having a strong economy to back it up. Anyone who has played a Sid Meiers' video game knows this. Perhaps everyone in Washington should play a little Civilization IV.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The information on WMD and Iraq was known to be in-accurate at best.
With hind sight being what it is, maybe.

At the time Bill Clinton and Congress agreed with Bush.

Here's a link to a video, if the text below isn't enough.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/01/10-years-young-another-clinton-speech.html


"Together, we must confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons and the outlaw states, terrorists, and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation's wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire Gulf war. Now Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission.

I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world," and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before. We are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again."

President Bill Clinton
January 27, 1998
 
Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
Obviously anyone who thinks we're headed towards socialism and the decline of a capitalist America has no idea what socialism is and what TRUE capitalism is... because you already live in a society with strong socialist foundations EDIT: and you always have since the day you were born (if you were born here). So did your parents (if they were born here) and so did anyone that was here in the 18th century.
 
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Nemo128

Nemo128

Audioholic Field Marshall
I want to know giving ACORN millions is worse than giving banks billions.
Because ACORN is full of hippy liberals out to turn American into a socialist wasteland, and banks are the epitomy of the capitalist American spirit that screams the successes of the free market...

And if anyone believes either thing I said, I have a nice bridge in Brooklyn I'd love to sell ya. PM me please, I take Paypal.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
With hind sight being what it is, maybe.

At the time Bill Clinton and Congress agreed with Bush.

Here's a link to a video, if the text below isn't enough.

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/01/10-years-young-another-clinton-speech.html


"Together, we must confront the new hazards of chemical and biological weapons and the outlaw states, terrorists, and organized criminals seeking to acquire them. Saddam Hussein has spent the better part of this decade and much of his nation's wealth not on providing for the Iraqi people but on developing nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons and the missiles to deliver them. The United Nations weapons inspectors have done a truly remarkable job finding and destroying more of Iraq's arsenal than was destroyed during the entire Gulf war. Now Saddam Hussein wants to stop them from completing their mission.

I know I speak for everyone in this chamber, Republicans and Democrats, when I say to Saddam Hussein, "You cannot defy the will of the world," and when I say to him, "You have used weapons of mass destruction before. We are determined to deny you the capacity to use them again."

President Bill Clinton
January 27, 1998
You seem to be drawing a correlation between possible WMD in Iraq and the current military action, correct?

This is a yes/no answer. You won't like my rebuttal. You and I both know what that rebuttal will be since the correlation/argument is full of holes.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
You seem to be drawing a correlation between possible WMD in Iraq and the current military action, correct?
Really, how did you assume that quantum leap?:confused:

I'm not drawing anything.
Clinton and his congress, and Bush and his congress all believed the same thing.
Bush was just dumb enough to be left holding the bag.

The information on WMD and Iraq was known to be in-accurate at best.
I was simply pointing out that regardless the accuracy of the information, it is what Clinton and Bush, and Congress all believed at that time to be true. What choice does the general public have, but to believe these two presidents? (At that time)

You have yet to address the original question posted at the start of this thread.

This is a yes/no answer.
Don't tell me how to answer questions in my own thread.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Really, how did you assume that quantum leap?:confused:

I'm not drawing anything.
Clinton and his congress, and Bush and his congress all believed the same thing.
Bush was just dumb enough to be left holding the bag.
No, Bush was dumb enough to consider the quality of information that they had actionable to the level of a war and subsequent long term occupation. BIG difference. I prefered Pres. Clinton's approach.

Why aren't we occupying N. Korea or Iran? We could using the same rational.

I was simply pointing out that regardless the accuracy of the information, it is what Clinton and Bush, and Congress all believed at that time to be true. What choice does the general public have, but to believe these two presidents? (At that time)

You have yet to address the original question posted at the start of this thread.
Yet with the same set of information, totally two different actions. Hmmm... Makes one think.

Does the fact that no one has read the $787 billion stimulus bill, scare anyone?
Yes, just about the same as the TARP bailout where no one thought to put in any oversight and accountability once the money was lent.

Isn't this the same way Congress rushed through the war, and search for weapons of mass destruction?
Probably and what weapons of mass destruction?

Don't tell me how to answer questions in my own thread.
No need to get defensive because you painted yourself into a corner.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Yes, just about the same as the TARP bailout where no one thought to put in any oversight and accountability once the money was lent.
Well look at that!
After 78 eight posts in this thread you actually addressed the original question.

And we agree. I didn't like TARP or this bailout either.
 
itschris

itschris

Moderator
Jinjuku... you are a worthy advisary. You're like Bizarro Chris... then again... maybe I'm Bizarro Jinjuku.

I think we're both smarter than the average bear, but I swear we couldn't think more differently about things. It's good though... life would blow if everyone walked in lockstep with one another 24/7
 
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