Next Step: Receiver/Amp or Integrated?

[Soner]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting. Thank you ahead of time for your thoughtful responses.

My desire: I am currently upgrading my system. I have always had a theater receiver/speaker setup. I am now upgrading for a stereo specific setup because, while I enjoy movies and surround, I love listening to music. I am very excited about the next step. So, on a particular budget I would like to optimize for music listening (no SACD yet).

My current receiver: Yamaha RX-V779 (discontinued, but RX-V781 is essentially the same with Dolby Atmos capability, I think).

My problem: I want to be able to maximize the improvement with my money, but have some room for further upgrade in the future. I know it will come down to my personal taste and experience. However, before I buy, I would like to make the best decision without having the privilege of hearing the setup beforehand. I plan to buy an amplifier and a new pair of tower speakers. My basic two choices are the following:

1) Buy a stereo power amp, new speakers, and use my current receiver as pre-amp and source selector.

2) Buy an integrated amp, new speakers, and cut out current receiver for a music-dedicated setup.

The stereo power amp (Marantz MM7025) I would want is $300 less expensive than the integrated amp I would want (Marantz PM8005). The MM7025 is rated about 70w/channel higher than the PM8005, which is desirable. Additionally, I could use the $300 difference to purchase a better (at least more expensive) pair of speakers (looking at ELAC f6). Also, this would be better suited for future upgrades, separate components and all. However, my current Yamaha receiver is brighter (even harsh at times) than I prefer. I'm concerned that mere addition of a stereo power amp will not change this characteristic about my setup, but I'm not sure if the "brightness" is a product of the receiver's amp or something else (pretty sure it's not the speakers). Ultimately, I think it comes down to the question of what will make a bigger difference: The integrated with speaker setup, or the addition of a stereo power amp (with greater power) and a theoretically better sounding pair of speakers.

Thanks again for your help,

Soner

 

[KEW]

I'm concerned that mere addition of a stereo power amp will not change this characteristic about my setup, but I'm not sure if the "brightness" is a product of the receiver's amp or something else (pretty sure it's not the speakers).

You are very wise to be concerned about this!
What speakers do you currently have?
Generally, if you want to change the sound, change the speakers!
We can get into lots of arguments here about whether or not the amp will change the sound, but very few (if anyone) will deny that speakers have a profound effect on the sound while electronics are comparatively subtle.
The exception to this rule are:
1) Some type of tone control or processing is being done to cause the problem - any mainstream company like Yamaha knows how to cleanly amplify the signal; to do otherwise is to distort the signal. So the amp section should be good. You should have control of any processing/tone control as well as a means to bypass it. So if your sound is too bright when you are playing in pure direct mode, look to your speakers for the fix!
2) Your speakers provide a load that is beyond the amp's ability to properly deliver the needed power. Unfortunately, some of the lower model AVR's (and, notably Yamaha) seem to be current limited. What this means is that when playing (especially loudly) multiple speakers or speakers with low impedance and problematic phase angles, the amp's power section cannot deliver the needed power to cleanly drive the speakers. If not, you will get clipping distortion that is generally heard in the higher frequencies and makes for a harsh sound. I don't know if your Yamaha is a lower level or not.

Borrow or buy a more powerful amp from somewhere that has a good return policy to check for situation #2 above. If not:

1) Consider your room. Stand in the middle and clap your hands. How much echo do you get. Worst case is hard, reflective floors (without carpet), lots of glass and bare drywall on the walls and bare drywall on the ceiling. All of these will reflect the higher frequencies more than the low frequencies and you will end up with an overly bright sound. Carpet, draperies, furniture, paintings (not with glass in front), and anything else that will absorb or scatter high frequency energy are your friend.
2) Trial alternate speakers in your room - again take advantage of distributors with good return policies. Right now, many places are allowing until the end of January for returns.

 

[Soner]

Kurt, you're awesome. All of this is very helpful. Thank you. To answer some of your questions:

I interchange Infinity Entra One (bookshelf) and Polk TSi200 (bookshelf). Both suggested amp power around 15w-120w. I noticed the bright/harsh in both.

I have noticed the same bright/harsh characteristic in different rooms, one with hardwood floor and another with carpet. I will further investigate.

As far as the receiver, I'm not sure if it would be considered lower level. It is rated 95w/channel. https://usa.yamaha.com/products/aud..._amps/rx-v779_black_u/specs.html#product-tabs

All other things aside, would you suggest getting a 2-channel power amp with AVR as pre-amp or getting integrated amp. Again, for me getting the 2-channel power amp means more power and better speakers, considering how it works with my budget.

Again, thank you.

Soner

 

[highfigh]

Hello everyone,

This is my first time posting. Thank you ahead of time for your thoughtful responses.

My desire: I am currently upgrading my system. I have always had a theater receiver/speaker setup. I am now upgrading for a stereo specific setup because, while I enjoy movies and surround, I love listening to music. I am very excited about the next step. So, on a particular budget I would like to optimize for music listening (no SACD yet).

My current receiver: Yamaha RX-V779 (discontinued, but RX-V781 is essentially the same with Dolby Atmos capability, I think).

My problem: I want to be able to maximize the improvement with my money, but have some room for further upgrade in the future. I know it will come down to my personal taste and experience. However, before I buy, I would like to make the best decision without having the privilege of hearing the setup beforehand. I plan to buy an amplifier and a new pair of tower speakers. My basic two choices are the following:

1) Buy a stereo power amp, new speakers, and use my current receiver as pre-amp and source selector.

2) Buy an integrated amp, new speakers, and cut out current receiver for a music-dedicated setup.

The stereo power amp (Marantz MM7025) I would want is $300 less expensive than the integrated amp I would want (Marantz PM8005). The MM7025 is rated about 70w/channel higher than the PM8005, which is desirable. Additionally, I could use the $300 difference to purchase a better (at least more expensive) pair of speakers (looking at ELAC f6). Also, this would be better suited for future upgrades, separate components and all. However, my current Yamaha receiver is brighter (even harsh at times) than I prefer. I'm concerned that mere addition of a stereo power amp will not change this characteristic about my setup, but I'm not sure if the "brightness" is a product of the receiver's amp or something else (pretty sure it's not the speakers). Ultimately, I think it comes down to the question of what will make a bigger difference: The integrated with speaker setup, or the addition of a stereo power amp (with greater power) and a theoretically better sounding pair of speakers.

Thanks again for your help,

Soner

If you want to keep the steps for using the system more simple, find a way to send the signal from the sources to the 2 channel input that's separate from what goes to the Yamaha. That way, you don't need to do anything to the Yamaha in order to listen to the 2 channel system. One way to do this is to use a splitter for digital coax outputs if the 2 channel preamp/integrated has them- I have had no luck with optical splitters, but that doesn't mean one that works isn't available.

You could use the Yamaha as the preamp/switch with a power amp- all you would need to do is shut off any surround modes and mute the Yamaha's output to the surround speakers.

If you really want the 2 channel system to sound better, you'll have to compare the sound of any integrated amps directly- I would recommend listening without making a comparison before switching to the other because, if you can live with the sound of the new 2 channel equipment and can't find anything objectionable, go with it. If the Yamaha is always too bright, use YPAO and the graphic EQ to tailor it to your liking.

 

[mtrot]

Well, live music is pretty "bright", if it has cymbals and other high frequency instruments. The key with an audio system is to retain a natural brightness and "air", without harshness or distortion in the highs. Based on personal experience, I would agree that using a separate power amp with an audio video receiver is not likely to dramatically improve your audio quality, unless your current speakers are causing the receiver to go into clipping. I am currently using a Denon AVR as a pre-amp, running it into a Krell class A power amp. I do believe the Krell improves on the "musicality" of the sound a tad, but I'm still not happy with the highs, in that they are not as natural, open, and "airy" sounding as they should be.

I would also agree that better speakers will lead to the biggest changes in your sound. But, to even get bookshelf size high quality speakers is expensive. It's a tough situation. As stated above, room reflections can also be a source of "harshness" in the highs, so room treatment should be investigated.

What I am now looking into is getting a quality pre-amp that has a home theater bypass, so I can still use my AVR for movies but also get improved two-channel sound. I would connect the pre-amp to my Krell power amp. The Parasound Halo P5 is my current leading candidate, as it is a "jack of all trades" and not terribly expensive, but I don't really have a place for it now in my rack. I'm working on that, however.

Also, you didn't mention what cables you are using. Many will tell you that more expensive cables are "fairy dust" products and that you cannot hear the differences, but I can easily hear the differences in sound between cables. The more resolving your electronics are, the more difference you will be able to hear between cables.

In your situation, I think I would first research and get some high quality tower speakers that are appropriate for your room size. There are scads of options. Also find out how much room reflections you are dealing with, and see if you can treat those somewhat. Then, at that point, you can see how things sound. Then you can always continue research on an integrated amp so as to improve those highs.

 

[lovinthehd]

If you're trying to improve the sounds of the Infinity/Polk speakers with electronics I think you're wasting your time....get better speakers first then perhaps make electronics changes. If you're using a sub with those speakers as you should, what will you do with typical 2ch gear in that respect? Seems you're using the same room or is this going to be in a dedicated room?

 

[Verdinut]

Contrarily to what is mentioned in post #5, EXPENSIVE SPEAKER CABLES ARE FAIRY DUST and just sold to make money. What really counts is the resistance of the cable and a good reference is the following link:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Putting money on better speakers is a far better investment.

 

[mtrot]

Contrarily to what is mentioned in post #5, EXPENSIVE SPEAKER CABLES ARE FAIRY DUST and just made to make money. What really counts is the resistance of the cable and a good reference is the following link:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Putting money on better speakers is a far better investment.

Okay, well that was predictable, regarding cables, and is certainly your opinion, to which you are entitled.

For the OP, regardless of whether or not some "experts" think expensive cables are "fairy dust", the relevant question is if they SOUND DIFFERENT from each other and from zip cord to your ears. And if they do, why then cannot a person try them out and find the ones that sound the best to them? Having an audio system is, or should be, all about whether or not you actually enjoy the sound, not about telling yourself there's no way that cables can sound different or better, so I'll just ignore all the options that are out there and never listen to them so as to be in a position to make your own decision.

Regarding speakers, I agree, and stated so in my post, that putting money on better speakers was the best first step.

 

[lovinthehd]

Okay, well that was predictable, regarding cables, and is certainly your opinion, to which you are entitled.

For the OP, regardless of whether or not some "experts" think expensive cables are "fairy dust", the relevant question is if they SOUND DIFFERENT from each other and from zip cord to your ears. And if they do, why then cannot a person try them out and find the ones that sound the best to them? Having an audio system is, or should be, all about whether or not you actually enjoy the sound, not about telling yourself there's no way that cables can sound different or better, so I'll just ignore all the options that are out there and never listen to them so as to be in a position to make your own decision.

Regarding speakers, I agree, and stated so in my post, that putting money on better speakers was the best first step.

So explain how you compared your cables. Or are you using cables with electronics in line to act as some sort of weird tone control?

 

[mtrot]

So explain how you compared your cables. Or are you using cables with electronics in line to act as some sort of weird tone control?

I just try different cables and listen to them. Usually, I can immediately tell the difference in sound, and which ones I like better.

But I recommend we drop this business, as my comment on cables was mostly parenthetical, and I don't want the OP's post hijacked into a long argument about cables. I agree that he has more important decisions to make regarding speakers, room interactions, and amplification.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just try different cables and listen to them. Usually, I can immediately tell the difference in sound, and which ones I like better.

But I recommend we drop this business, as my comment on cables was mostly parenthetical, and I don't want the OP's post hijacked into a long argument about cables. I agree that he has more important decisions to make regarding speakers, room interactions, and amplification.

Figured as much. You are unlikely to do any worthwhile comparisons that way, just your mind and wallet influencing you. Hopefully the OP won't fall for such phoolishness....

 

[mtrot]

Figured as much. You are unlikely to do any worthwhile comparisons that way, just your mind and wallet influencing you. Hopefully the OP won't fall for such phoolishness....

Hopefully, if the OP says something you question, you won't insult and dismiss him with as much gusto as you have me. I'll try this again -- at this point, I'd recommend dropping this cables controversy so as to try to keep this on the topic of what the OP might first do in his situation, but I'm beginning to doubt that you can do it.

 

[Verdinut]

The fact is that, on this website, we don't accept statements without scientific proof nor any audiophool bullshit.

 

[mtrot]

The fact is that, on this website, we don't accept statements without scientific proof nor any audiophool bullshit.

OK, it appears you and lovinthehd will NOT drop this, such that the focus can remain on the OP's best options. Some things cannot be demonstrated or proved scientifically. I guess if you clearly hear a difference, but cannot scientifically document or prove it, then to you it does not exist, even though you heard it. Fine, keep telling yourself that.

BTW, I'm also pretty skeptical of manufacturer claims, so I go into listening to new products NOT expecting to hear much of what they claim. So I don't believe I suffer from any expectation bias. I will reject or return a product if it does not offer an improvement in sound to my ears. But if I hear great sound, or an improvement in sound, I don't ruin it by telling myself it can't be true.

 

[lovinthehd]

OK, it appears you and lovinthehd will NOT drop this, such that the focus can remain on the OP's best options. Some things cannot be demonstrated or proved scientifically. I guess if you clearly hear a difference, but cannot scientifically document or prove it, then to you it does not exist, even though you heard it. Fine, keep telling yourself that.

BTW, I'm also pretty skeptical of manufacturer claims, so I go into listening to new products NOT expecting to hear much of what they claim. So I don't believe I suffer from any expectation bias. I will reject or return a product if it does not offer an improvement in sound to my ears. But if I hear great sound, or an improvement in sound, I don't ruin it by telling myself it can't be true.

No, it doesn't work this way. You really haven't analyzed what you're hearing or why, nor removed bias in a sighted self-administered test. Maybe you would accept a challenge from @jinjuku ?

Just for s&g just what metrics do you shop for cable with, or would advise the OP to shop with?

 

[Pyrrho]

... Some things cannot be demonstrated or proved scientifically. ...

Lies cannot be scientifically proven to be true. That something has no evidential basis is a reason to believe it is bullshit nonsense. Give actual evidence for a claim, and then people might be more receptive to it. But making an unsubstantiated claim, one that sounds like the lies and bullshit one has heard countless times, tends to be disregarded by people who are not braindead morons.

 

[KEW]

All other things aside, would you suggest getting a 2-channel power amp with AVR as pre-amp or getting integrated amp. Again, for me getting the 2-channel power amp means more power and better speakers, considering how it works with my budget.

My reservation with this is if you get amp and speakers, you may be putting money into an amp that could be spent upgrading to yet better speakers.
Normally, I would say, if you are adding an amp to use the AVR as a preamp, but the Yamaha AVR seem to be weak as a pre-amp as well!
Here are Gene's comments on the Yamaha Avantage A860 AVR (bold is mine):

While the RX-A860 is fine driving small bass-managed 8 ohm speakers, this is the first time I'd actually caution people against using 4 ohm speakers or even running 8 ohm tower speakers on the “large” setting. I’ve never said this about a Yamaha before. It's sad that a $400 predecessor from the very same company offered a more robust amp and power section than this product, which has AVENTAGE moniker stamped on it. To pour further salt on the power wound, the preamp out section of this receiver is a bit weak, making it critical to match with a high gain amplifier to ensure the preamp itself doesn't clip while driving external amplification. I'd like to see Yamaha beef up the amp section so the current limiting could be a little less restrictive and for God's sake, please give us a clean 2Vrms output from the pre-outs of ALL your AV receivers!

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-a860/conclusion

I tried to find actual tests of the RX779, but no luck. It may be a very solid unit.
Maybe @M Code might have some idea which Yamaha models are compromised!

 

[Pyrrho]

For the OP:

Anyone who really could hear the difference between magic cables and ordinary speaker wire could be a millionaire. James Randi has offered that for many years, yet whenever the people who claim obvious differences are actually properly tested, they are never able to detect any difference. Google it for yourself and read about the bullshit claims about wires. If anyone could really hear the things that some audiophiles claim to hear, they would be rich and there would be proof of the claims, instead of just worthless, unsubstantiated claims they make. They like to whine about how they are not believed, but fail to demonstrate their claimed abilities. When people make bullshit claims, like that they are faster than a speeding bullet, or can hear things that humans are unable to hear, people of sense do not believe such claims. If the claims were true, they would be able to prove it. But instead, they whine about how people don't believe them, instead of proving what they say. If someone could hear the differences that they claim, they could prove it. Yet they never do.

Edited to add:

Imagine someone claiming that they can run 20 miles in 2 minutes. If they really could do it, then they could prove it. But until they do prove it, there is zero reason to believe their story is true. The same idea applies to people making claims about being able to hear differences in wires. If they really could hear the differences, they could prove it. And until they do prove it, it would be stupid to believe them, just like it would be stupid to believe someone who claims to be able to run 20 miles in 2 minutes and fails to prove it.


I might add, there are some differences that can be heard, and for that, I refer you to someone else's link:

Speaker Wire - Roger Russell

 

[mtrot]

Contrarily to what is mentioned in post #5, EXPENSIVE SPEAKER CABLES ARE FAIRY DUST and just sold to make money. What really counts is the resistance of the cable and a good reference is the following link:

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

Putting money on better speakers is a far better investment.

Okay, I read most of that article and it is a very interesting read. I actually hope that what he's saying is true -- ha ha, it might save me some money. Perhaps I'll revisit the situation and try comparing some basic heavy gauge speaker cable with some of the cables I have on hand. My cable run is about 9 feet. I could sell off some stuff and help fund that new 4K TV.

 

[lovinthehd]

Okay, I read most of that article and it is a very interesting read. I actually hope that what he's saying is true -- ha ha, it might save me some money. Perhaps I'll revisit the situation and try comparing some basic heavy gauge speaker cable with some of the cables I have on hand. My cable run is about 9 feet. I could sell off some stuff and help fund that new 4K TV.

Progress!