Newbie Help: Surround Sound simulation from 2 channel Stereo

A

Andyt123

Audiophyte
Hello, I am a newbie in the surround sound arena and I have a very basic question. I have been reading that in surround sound technologies such a Pro Logic, the decoder can take a two channel Stereo feed and output it as a simulated 5.1 surround environment. I thought this was possible only if the stereo feed had embedded the additional channel info. In other words, I can understand how Prologic (or other similar technologies) can extract from the original stereo feed the additional channel info "if" this information was present and available........if this information was not present on the original stereo feed how would Prologic know what goes to which channel? In other words, if I am hearing a Music CD that is standard 2 channel only, can something like prologic simulate that into 5.1 surround?

-Andy
:)
San Francisco
 
E

Exit

Audioholic Chief
It has been a long time since I read about this but I will give it a shot. Music is recorded with most information in phase but some out of phase. I believe there is a minute time delay in some signals which make them out of phase. The ProLogic decoders sort out the out of phase signals and route them to the rear channels. Soundtracks for ProLogic intentionally put in out-of-phase information so it will be directed to the rear channels. For music the Pro-Logic decoders just sort out naturally occurring out-of-phase information for the rear channels. So you could run ProLogic on music and get slightly different sound out of each channel. I think most audioholics would consider this to be an artificial rendition and would prefer simple two channel stereo instead.

(I am not quite sure how the center channel is derived out of the front two speaker channels but it is also probably derived from phase differences between the front speakers.)

This use of phase differences dates back to at least the late 60’s when I had a Sherwood receiver with a Dynaco? rear channel ambience circuit. It was also the basis of the quadraphonic gear in the 70’s. It was revived for Pro-Logic in the 1980’s for use on VHS tapes of movies. George Lucas’s Star Wars was also a factor in the adoption of this format.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Hello, I am a newbie in the surround sound arena and I have a very basic question. I have been reading that in surround sound technologies such a Pro Logic, the decoder can take a two channel Stereo feed and output it as a simulated 5.1 surround environment. I thought this was possible only if the stereo feed had embedded the additional channel info. In other words, I can understand how Prologic (or other similar technologies) can extract from the original stereo feed the additional channel info "if" this information was present and available........if this information was not present on the original stereo feed how would Prologic know what goes to which channel? In other words, if I am hearing a Music CD that is standard 2 channel only, can something like prologic simulate that into 5.1 surround?

-Andy
:)
San Francisco
With Dolby Pro Logic, (hereafter referred to as DPL), they have 4 separate channels in the studio. The front right, front left, front center, and rear (also called "surround", which is why it is "S" in the quote below). These four channels are then mixed together down to two channels in a special way:

The L and R inputs go straight to the Lt and Rt outputs without modification. The C input is divided equally to Lt and Rt with a 3 dB level reduction (to maintain constant acoustic power in the mix). The S input is also divided equally between Lt and Rt, but it first undergoes three additional processing steps:
• Frequency bandlimiting from 100 Hz to 7 kHz.
• Encoding with a modified form of Dolby B-type noise reduction.
• Plus and minus 90-degree phase shifts are applied to create a 180 degree phase differential between the signal components feeding Lt and Rt.
From:
http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/208_Dolby_Surround_Pro_Logic_Decoder.pdf

Your DPL decoder at home reverses this process to give you 4 channel sound from a two channel source. This whole scheme was developed for theaters to use, so that there would only need to be two channels of sound on the film. There was not room on the film to easily add more channels, and also, this way, they could use existing projectors with two channel readers, which then feed the signal to a special decoder. But it also is perfect for two channel VCRs and 2 channel sound on analog TV.

Now, of course, they can do sound differently than when DPL was invented, and they can keep the channels totally separate from each other. Dolby Digital and dts (in their 5.1 versions) do just that.

Basically, the matrixed Dolby Digital EX and the matrixed dts-ES mix the rear center channel in the right and left rear in a manner similar to how the front center channel is mixed into the front right and left in DPL.

Now, with ordinary stereo music, there will tend to be some things that are in both the right and left channel, and applying the DPL decoder to this will redirect whatever is the same into the center channel, and whatever is the same but out of phase, it will process as if it were the rear channel, sending that information to the rear speakers. Whether you like the results of this or not, this is technically not decoding when it is used this way, because in order to decode something, it must first be encoded. But many people enjoy processing sound in a variety of ways to create new channels, and this is also what is happening when DPL II or DPL IIx is applied to a DPL encoded source.
 
A

Andyt123

Audiophyte
Yes!!

Hello Pyrrho,
Your last paragraph hit a bulls eye and is the answer I wanted to hear. I was concerned about how ordinary non encoded stereo could be "decoded" if it was not encoded in the first place. Eureka!

-Andy


"with ordinary stereo music, there will tend to be some things that are in both the right and left channel, and applying the DPL decoder to this will redirect whatever is the same into the center channel, and whatever is the same but out of phase, it will process as if it were the rear channel, sending that information to the rear speakers. Whether you like the results of this or not, this is technically not decoding when it is used this way, because in order to decode something, it must first be encoded. But many people enjoy processing sound in a variety of ways to create new channels, and this is also what is happening when DPL II or DPL IIx is applied to a DPL encoded source."
 

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