New receiver or new power amp?

[Scott Andrew]

WOW... allot can happen in 6 days, I did not mean to start such a battle! Ok so in my opinion I think that separate amp will give much better top end and control and a fuller sound then the amplifier section of an avg receiver... however my question is in regards to my specific equipment. I don't have the $$ to spend on all the REALLY expensive gear. Someone suggested changing the speakers, well I just spent over $4000 including taxes on all my (B&W, HSU) speakers so that's simply not an option. My receiver says it puts out 110 per channel x 7. So I assume my towers are receiving 220 per tower as they are bi-amped... but they do not impress me, when it is up very loud it seems "weak" and my sub can easily out do the rest. But if I buy a separate power amp such as the Behringer that someone suggested... will this make a noticeable difference as opposed to going out and depending another $1200 on a whole new receiver

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

When you biamp using a 7 channel receiver, your unit now becomes a 5 channel receiver. Your towers will not even see 110 watts rms biamped if your other 3 channels are getting power. The typical surround receiver outputting to all channels at maximum reference level before audible distortion kicks in is probably 50-60 watts per channel.

That 110 watt rating is for two channels. When you introduce more than two channels, that rating drops quickly.

You probably listen to music/HT at an average of 3-8 watts rms. Keep in mind your receiver has one power supply, a limited sized heat sink, and two small to average sized capacitors. Separate, costlier surround power amps utilize larger power supplies, heavier heat sinks, and much larger capacitors.

 

[no. 5]

Well, I wouldn't know about those two sport fans, I don't follow such sports

me too, I just like making intresting analogy's.

Firstly, ALL amps are not audibly the same. Your ABX link shows this. And, certainly I would not include a SET amp as well designed or sounding the same

Modern amps, well designed, operated in their design limits, properly level matched to .1 dB spl, and under DBT protocol most likely and will not be differentiated by sound alone. No reason.

I think we are on the same page.

 

[RickT]

I read most of your posts, I thought you were enjoying debating it so far. Until now? I stopped, but I don't mind reading the debates so don't dispappoint me. Seriously I also feel there is no point debating this topic in terms of no one is going to prevail but it does a couple of things in such forums.

The debatable points usually arise from why some methodology or piece of gear does or does not sound better i.e. is there really no improvement from some particular methodology that one is employing or upgrading to what should be better gear in one area or another ? ... or is an apparent lack of improvement related to the fact that the system as a whole is held back by the weakest link in the chain which exists somewhere other than where we happen to be upgrading or testing a new methodology ?

Virtually every aspect of this "hobby" can be and usually is debated ... When the debate is done one still has to come home to ones own ears ... That should be the driving force for each of us ... It either sounds better to each of us as individuals or it doesn't ...

 

[no. 5]

But if I buy a separate power amp such as the Behringer that someone suggested... will this make a noticeable difference as opposed to going out and depending another $1200 on a whole new receiver

at higher voulmes, yes, it should.

BTW, how is your bass manegment set up?

 

[cfrizz]

Thank you Peng. I am glad that you were able to get some useful information from my posts, since that is what I intended to impart in the first place. I also thank you for respecting my view on these issues & not being condescending towards me whether you agree with me or not!

For me the bottom line is the music. If a piece of equipment helps to make the music sound better to my ears, then it is worth the expense, if it doesn't it's not.

I bought a separate amp because at the time I was considering purchasing harder to drive speakers & I was told that my Denon receiver couldn't handle the 4ohm load. So I got the Parasound HCA1500A. Well it made such a huge terrific difference in what I heard from old cd's I have listened to for years & thought I knew inside & out on a pair of speakers I have had for 16 yrs that I have pretty much scrapped the idea of getting new speakers!

Hopefully Scott will read through all of these posts & be able to come to some conclusion of whether or not he wants to add a separate amp. I will always point people in the direction of getting at least a 200wpc amp, because I know from MY experience that it is a most beneficial purchase.

And I have never had anyone come back & say that it didn't improve their system, including my own brother who is a musician.

I'm not going to debate with anyone about any of this, I'm simply going to state my own experience & let others decide for themselves.

Thanks once again for the pleasant conversation Peng. You are a credit to this board & have left a very good impression on this member.

Take care.

2. To people like me, it is entertainment, as well as educational. mtry tend to make statements (occasionally..or rarely ) that people may not like, but I learnt a few things from his posts. Mostly recently I also learnt a couple of things (e.g. how a Joule meter works & how a not so heavy amp can be powerful) from cfrizz, a new member who offered suggestions. If I am not mistaken, cfrizz did not debate the amps sound same/differnece topic neither, just suggested the OP to go and try things out.

 

[Scott Andrew]

BTW, how is your bass manegment set up?

what do you mean? I have the HSU VTF-3 and i set it at half volume and then let the Pioneer 1014's auto calibration set everything else

 

[no. 5]

what do you mean? I have the HSU VTF-3 and i set it at half volume and then let the Pioneer 1014's auto calibration set everything else

specifically, I was wondering if all of your speakers are set to 'large' or 'small'.

 

[Scott Andrew]

everything is set to large

 

[no. 5]

well, it takes a whole lot more power to drive a speaker full range (set to large) then if the speaker was high-passed (set to small), now if you want to keep all the speakers set to 'large' it's a matter of personal taste, but I would recommend at least seting the center and surrounds (or better all speakers) to 'small'.
here is some information on the matter: Bass Management Basics – Settings Made Simple

 

[no. 5]

oh, and if you do set any speakers to 'small' you should re-set the levels.

 

[wire]

well, it takes a whole lot more power to drive a speaker full range (set to large) then if the speaker was high-passed (set to small), now if you want to keep all the speakers set to 'large' it's a matter of personal taste, but I would recommend at least seting the center and surrounds (or better all speakers) to 'small'.
here is some information on the matter: Bass Management Basics – Settings Made Simple

Hehe this is bass managment .
Who says amps dont make a difference , when you know what your doing .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rJSZKZsyQ
This was taken off Carverforums a member there .
Look at his other Bass pig walk about , hehe his lights go out on low end .

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hehe this is bass managment .
Who says amps dont make a difference , when you know what your doing .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rJSZKZsyQ
This was taken off Carverforums a member there .
Look at his other Bass pig walk about , hehe his lights go out on low end .

I bet a jet engine would do the same, no amps needed

 

[zumbo]

All of this fun conversation over a receiver not being set-up correctly. I can't believe we didn't ask that question earlier. That is exactly whats wrong.

Scott
Look through all of the set-up tips.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/index.php

Now. I have a test for some of you who have an amp added to a receiver. (I do, and I did)

Pull your speaker wires from the amp.

Connect them to your receiver.

Tell me how much difference there is.

The difference will be at very high levels only. To many, this is a painful level. I don't get mine there much, but I do.

 

[zumbo]

at higher voulmes, yes, it should.

BTW, how is your bass manegment set up?

Very very good! I fell like such a dumb @$$ for not thinking about this. I went straight to the answer of Scotts question. And then the debate, which I love, thereafter.

 

[mtrycrafts]

.
Ive never heard a Pass Amp , But if sounds like a Yammy ( Yammy just doesnt sound good ) it's not worth the money .

I bet is sound a lot like much of the well designed amps, so they would naturally sound like the Yammy as they would be in the same set

 

[mtrycrafts]

WOW... allot can happen in 6 days, I did not mean to start such a battle! ..... My receiver says it puts out 110 per channel x 7. So I assume my towers are receiving 220 per tower as they are bi-amped... but they do not impress me, when it is up very loud it seems "weak" and my sub can easily out do the rest. But if I buy a separate power amp such as the Behringer that someone suggested... will this make a noticeable difference as opposed to going out and depending another $1200 on a whole new receiver

No battles Do you see any blood dripping or flowing

Now you are bringing up another issue, bi-amping and using a single receiver to do so. That will not accomplish anything, nor placing two independent amps on that speaker with that passive crossover in the speaker still being used.

If you think you need more volume, you need to examine a few issues: speaker sensitivity, room acoustics and speakers ability to perform properly at high volume levels while not getting into compression and high distortion as speakers do as volume increases.
Low frequency needs more power to perceive it. Hearing is very nonlinear http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

Perhaps your room needs attention before you look at amplification issues.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Very very good! I fell like such a dumb @$$ for not thinking about this. I went straight to the answer of Scotts question. And then the debate, which I love, thereafter.

At times we see things too, sidetracked by visual perception mistakes
One more reason to be weary of our senses

 

[wire]

I bet is sound a lot like much of the well designed amps, so they would naturally sound like the Yammy as they would be in the same set

Well , i wouldnt say alot , ive heard alot of amps and still dont like Yammy .

 

[wire]

I bet a jet engine would do the same, no amps needed

Geeze you see the Walk About , the lights dim in and out with the low end , thats to cool .