New receiver or new power amp?

[RickT]

That small wiggle tells you that it has a wiggle, not that it is audibly different compared to that other component.

Ergo no reason to know it even exists ...

Maybe the scope is looking at the wrong issue? Maybe and most likely your protocol is flawed, hence the unreliable perception.
Trust your ears too much and you will be chasing that pot of non-existing put of gold. But, that is also allowed. I rather not do that.

Too much ? ... I don't think we're talking about the differences that would exist for example between an amp that is clipping versus one that isn't and since my ears are all I have to enjoy the music of choice with, it would seem silly to do use some other criteria ... I like it ? ... it's good ... the rest ? ... c'ya ... No one else has to like it or agree that it's different or whatever ...

 

[RickT]

Anyone? I mean, anyone? Does it have to be me?

As I said ... To some degree I envy those that don't, won't or can't tell the difference ...

 

[wire]

I am constantly swinging back & forth on this very subject. There is nothing wrong with my Denon & sounds great. I don't know how much difference going to a prepro will make to justify the cost of one. So I waffle back & forth on the idea!

Well good luck .
Maybe , a Sunfire prosessor will fall in your lap also . They are dropping in price for the older generation 1 to 3 , but if your gonna test drive one , i recommend the prossesor with the Holigram , it will inhance your 2 channel music listining experince .

Oh Yeh Marry Xmas to all .

 

[Nick250]

Anyone? I mean, anyone? Does it have to be me?

Hey! You are not the only one doing the heavy lifting around here. .

Nick

 

[PENG]

I'm amazed at how they managed to build such powerful amps & yet make them so lightweight! As for the current source output, probably not, I just have the IC's plugged into the non balanced plugs. Yes I have the Joules meter, but you will be disappointed to learn that when off it is all the way over to the left. when on it moves all the way over to the right & stays there!
It's not meant to bounce around.

I should have known better. I wrongly assumed that the meter would show the energy output per second, just like a wattmeter. It turns out it simply shows the total energy available from the tracking downconverter power supply and for the Cinema 200 seven, it is 480 Joules or (480 Watt for one second) under normal use. I am embarrassed, but thank you for educating me.

At least it is illuminated so it should still look pretty even though the pointer doesn't move. This thing has a lot of toys, including terminals for bi-wiring, bi-amping, current source outputs for the front channels, both unbalanced and balanced (XLR) inputs etc. It must be fun to own one if you like to play with toys aside from just enjoying music.

Merry Christmas to everyone!

 

[RickT]

Ok rick you may have missed my point, im not one that clings to dbt's or the belief that all modern gear that is not malfunctioning sounds the same in fact im the polar oposite & i do believe that most gear sounds different with some sounding extremely different

My post was directed at the one above mine ... Given the pictures of your gear ( beautiful ) it's apparent where your beliefs are ...

Frankly it's not surprising that those with receivers ( been there, done that, I still use them in SOME places ) see no apparent benefits in components or wire beyond typical mid fi level ...

 

[mtrycrafts]

it would seem silly to do use some other criteria ... I like it ? ... it's good ... the rest ?...

Who said you have to use anything other than your ears? After all, a DBT is conducted to use ONLY one's ears, nothing else. Or, are some so insecure that they don't trust their ears all of a sudden? and, ones eyes must be used to identify which component is audibly different? Interesting.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My post was directed at the one above mine ... Given the pictures of your gear ( beautiful ) it's apparent where your beliefs are ...

Now, how can a picture tell you one's belief system in audio? You have special gifts? I guess you don't know about a preference to some nice components? Maybe their looks are the impressive features for some?

Frankly it's not surprising that those with receivers ( been there, done that, I still use them in SOME places ) see no apparent benefits in components or wire beyond typical mid fi level ...


Wires? Tell us about the benefits of wires, please.
Components? I guess speakers cannot dictate the need for specific component design? Or, you just don't know about others as mush as you think you imply.

 

[mtrycrafts]

ok, mtrycrafts; post #76 (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=228980&postcount=76) was just my two cents, I have not done enough DBT's to give my personal impression if all amplifiers sound the same or not (but I'm gussing you have).

Please post the evidence where it was stated that ALL amps sound the same? If you cannot, please don't imply it.

for the record, I think that one well desined and manufactured amplifier will sound transparent, and even identical to another good amp, however, I think there are elements of an amplifiers design that can make one sound diffrent than another, and whether or not one amp sounds defrent than another amp is up to the designer.

refrences:
ABX Double Blind Test Results: Power Amplifiers
Amplifier Sound - What Are The Influences?

Of course an amp can be designed to sound Euphonic. Who said otherwise? But, that is not a well designed amp, is it?

And yest I am well aware of that ABX link and most of the amp DBT that have been published in the past 30+ years.

Perhaps you need to get this and read it as well:

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.


isn't sounding better or worse an audible difference?

And you know that one sounds better before you establish a difference? Or, perhaps it was even established that one is better, or worse, properly.

 

[no. 5]

ok, mtrycrafts; post #76 (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=228980&postcount=76) was just my two cents, I have not done enough DBT's to give my personal impression if all amplifiers sound the same or not (but I'm gussing you have).

Please post the evidence where it was stated that ALL amps sound the same? If you cannot, please don't imply it.

for the record, I think that one well desined and manufactured amplifier will sound transparent, and even identical to another good amp, however, I think there are elements of an amplifiers design that can make one sound diffrent than another, and whether or not one amp sounds defrent than another amp is up to the designer.

refrences:
ABX Double Blind Test Results: Power Amplifiers
Amplifier Sound - What Are The Influences?

Of course an amp can be designed to sound Euphonic. Who said otherwise? But, that is not a well designed amp, is it?

And yest I am well aware of that ABX link and most of the amp DBT that have been published in the past 30+ years.

Perhaps you need to get this and read it as well:

David Rich and Peter Aczel, 'Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent,' 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.


isn't sounding better or worse an audible difference?

And you know that one sounds better before you establish a difference? Or, perhaps it was even established that one is better, or worse, properly.

(no. 5 punchs himself in the eye)

 

[mtrycrafts]

no. 5 punchs himself in the eye[/SIZE])

Don't do that. Am I missing something in your posts? Not reading it correctly? Lets straighten it out.

 

[no. 5]

regarding post #149

post #78

Sound quality is in the pre-amp section of the receiver. If the same receiver in question is used as the pre-amp for the added amp, it will sound exactly the same.

post #126

That is not surprising at all. Most likely all were biased observations. And testimonials, what would you expect from them?
Did any say they couldn't tell a difference when operated withing their design limits? I bet that didn't happen either.

I just skimed through the thread for some examples as to why I thought this thread seemd in favor of "all amps sound the same", it does not mean I was right in that impression, it's just how I came to it.

 

[RickT]

Wires? Tell us about the benefits of wires, please.
Components?

There's a zillion threads on this and a zillion other boards about this as well as every other conceivable option ... There's no point in debating them again here ... You either believe or you don't from your own experience ...

 

[no. 5]

Lets straighten it out.

deffintly agreed.

apon reflection, and skimming through all the posts, it almost seems like we may both hold the same view on the matter of an amplifiers contrabution (or lack there of) to what is heard, but we're going about it like two Red Sox fans that think the other is a Yankees fan.

if you could, please, what are your feelings as to an amplifiers affect on sound quality, and if all amps sound the same, or whatever elce.

 

[mtrycrafts]

deffintly agreed.

apon reflection, and skimming through all the posts, it almost seems like we may both hold the same view on the matter of an amplifiers contrabution (or lack there of) to what is heard, but we're going about it like two Red Sox fans that think the other is a Yankees fan.

if you could, please, what are your feelings as to an amplifiers affect on sound quality, and if all amps sound the same, or whatever elce.

Well, I wouldn't know about those two sport fans, I don't follow such sports

Firstly, ALL amps are not audibly the same. Your ABX link shows this. And, certainly I would not include a SET amp as well designed or sounding the same

Modern amps, well designed, operated in their design limits, properly level matched to .1 dB spl, and under DBT protocol most likely and will not be differentiated by sound alone. No reason.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You either believe or you don't from your own experience ...

Believe? Why does it come down to a belief? Why cannot it be demonstrated properly that wires sound audibly different? Because, comparable cables just don't. Nothing to do with a belief but what can be demonstrated.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I just skimed through the thread for some examples as to why I thought this thread seemd in favor of "all amps sound the same", it does not mean I was right in that impression, it's just how I came to it.

Understood but... Right now we are talking about a few, limited, well designed amps. We are a long way from comparing others

But, if a $300 ancient Yam and an $15k monoblock Pass Aleph 1.2 cannot be differentiated

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

We are still not including a lot of others that can be

 

[wire]

Understood but... Right now we are talking about a few, limited, well designed amps. We are a long way from comparing others

But, if a $300 ancient Yam and an $15k monoblock Pass Aleph 1.2 cannot be differentiated

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio.opinion/browse_frm/thread/664b8681ab141263/3fd91bcb6a1522a0?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&rnum=1&prev=/groups?q=sunshine+stereo+yamaha+abx+nousaine&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1#3fd91bcb6a1522a0

We are still not including a lot of others that can be

Hehe
I dont follow baseball ( spoiled baby's , get paid way to much and i cant support it ) .
Ive never heard a Pass Amp , But if sounds like a Yammy ( Yammy just doesnt sound good ) it's not worth the money .

 

[PENG]

There's a zillion threads on this and a zillion other boards about this as well as every other conceivable option ... There's no point in debating them again here ... You either believe or you don't from your own experience ...

I gave up debating it long time ago by accepting the possibilities that some people may hear certain type of difference while others may not. To a Blood Hound, there is a difference in smell among most things, but to a Chow Chow, the differences may not be as "smellable".

I read most of your posts, I thought you were enjoying debating it so far. Until now? I stopped, but I don't mind reading the debates so don't dispappoint me. Seriously I also feel there is no point debating this topic in terms of no one is going to prevail but it does a couple of things in such forums.

1. So that members looking for answers get to see view points from all sides, those who believe, those who don't and those who are not sure.

2. To people like me, it is entertainment, as well as educational. mtry tend to make statements that people may not like, but I learnt a few things from his posts. I also learnt a few things from cfrizz, a new member, I think.

 

[PENG]

There's a zillion threads on this and a zillion other boards about this as well as every other conceivable option ... There's no point in debating them again here ... You either believe or you don't from your own experience ...

I gave up debating this long time ago after accepting the possibilities that some people may hear certain types of difference while others may not. To a Blood Hound, there is a difference in smell among most things, but to a Chow Chow, the differences may not be as "smellable".

I read most of your posts, I thought you were enjoying debating this so far. Until now? I stopped, but I don't mind reading the debates so please don't dispappoint me. Seriously I also feel there is no point debating this topic in terms of no one is going to prevail, but I think it does a couple of good things.

1. So that members looking for answers get to see view points from all sides, those who believe, those who don't and those who are not sure.

2. To people like me, it is entertainment, as well as educational. mtry tend to make statements (occasionally..or rarely ) that people may not like, but I learnt a few things from his posts. Mostly recently I also learnt a couple of things (e.g. how a Joule meter works & how a not so heavy amp can be powerful) from cfrizz, a new member who offered suggestions. If I am not mistaken, cfrizz did not debate the amps sound same/differnece topic neither, just suggested the OP to go and try things out.