Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
@Irvrobinson
Fair enough. The build quality (and materials) of Tesla (from 3rd hand heard, youtube videos) does indeed make domestic cars look much better in comparison.
I don't hate American cars. In fact my "Japanise" Outback's built-in Indiana. It's cheap to do final assembly for bigger cars closer to the market these cars are driven.
My point is that USA domestic brands cars are both expensive to buy and expensive to lease, but there is no logical reason to do so since there is much better value elsewhere.
Got it. I'm not doubting your pricing judgement one bit. The C8 Corvette may be a huge bargain, but the new Tahoe isn't. I saw one on my street and thought it looked pretty nice. So I configured one online to look similar... over $86K. For a Tahoe? Well, at least it can actually tow something more than a canoe, unlike any of the unibody German models that can't even tow a fold-down camper without blowing its tongue-weight limit.

Here's an example: Chevy 2020 Equinox AWD with 2.0T block. Add few features to make it similar trim and it's already MSRP at 40k. Well, this is just half the picture. The other shoes fall then you look at depreciation charts:

And Equinox has less cargo space than Outback.
Had an Equinox as a rental, once. You didn't see it on my list, did ya? ;-)

Maybe only muscle cars are an exception to the rule. One could get lots of power with a domestic muscle car for relatively little money. Unfortunately, I'm not in the market for sports/muscle cars - my Accord 2.0 is fast enough to have a bit of fun at 5.5seconds 0-60.
Good thinking. The American muscle cars are not my style. Too big or too impractical. The Charger is the closest thing to something I could live with, but it is huge.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
So my Subaru Outback 2018 3.6R Limited (original MSRP is was around 37k) lease - which was about 10k miles/year/42 months and $435 per month with 1st month at signing.
I thought that was a pretty decent deal and I generally like the car for money.
Things it has which I care about a lot: Easy to clean seats (leather in my case), lots of storage space in the boot, AWD - it not supercritical, but does come handly 2-3 weeks in winters, Driver/passenger power seats with the driver have 2 memory - this one is actually extremely helpful as I and my wife have very different height and driving position preference. All the electronic driving/parking assist is helpful for my wife.

Things I have on my car which I could easily live without Sunroof, Built-in Navigation, CD player - does anyone still uses these?

Things I wish they'd done better: 3.6L flat boxer engine isn't particularly powerful nor efficient. They did switch to a new 2.4L 4 pots with turbo which I drove today, but calling it sporty would a MASSIVE lie. Best described it hauls its behind, but nowhere nice as my 2.0t accord. I guess engine aside, they'd have to reduce the car weight to make it move faster/eat less gas, but that probably means using more expensive materials and increase costs.

Speaking of costs. I went to my local Subaru dealer today and basically, the car which replaces my Limited 3.6R is 2021 Limited XT which is after delivery and minimum accessories have MSRP over 40k !!! Holey mother of god. I could get a much bigger Ascent for 2k more with the same Limited trim!! (minus navigation, again which I don't use - CarPlay is great)
Mazda CX-9 is a similar ballpark - has more torque engine (ie: feels peppier) and much more storage than outback.

I do get that Outback is a popular car in the US and thus the reason for a price increase, but it's popular for a reason - it needs to be a great value. at 40k it just isn't.

/rant
sounds like your lease had a residual around 65% based on your payments which would put your lease buyout around $21k-$22k if my guesstimate is close. Your buyout should lower your monthly payment, if you liked your car you should keep it. ALL the newer Subarus are consuming about a quart of oil between oil changes which is not a good thing. The boxer motor is solid with the CVT being the weak link but not terrible if you’re nice to it. If you want something else that is similar the new RAV4 is your best option with the CR-V being a close second. The Chevy Equinox doesn’t suck but only the 2.0 turbo is worth considering, everything else in the class is currently subpar with the likelihood of long service visits to be expected.
 
T

TankTop5

Audioholic General
Got it. I'm not doubting your pricing judgement one bit. The C8 Corvette may be a huge bargain, but the new Tahoe isn't. I saw one on my street and thought it looked pretty nice. So I configured one online to look similar... over $86K. For a Tahoe? Well, at least it can actually tow something more than a canoe, unlike any of the unibody German models
The one thing to consider with the Tahoe is it’s based on 30 year old engine, tranny and chassis which have proved to be 200k-300k mile platforms. The Tahoe is tried and true, expensive but if you keep it and maintain it it will last several decades, the ROI is definitely worth it.

The 5.3 liter engine is just an upgraded 327 smallblock Chevy, same with the new 10 speed, it’s a highly modified turbo 350. The frame is slight modified for a new independent rear suspension. These things have decades of engineering experience and a history of reliability.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
sounds like your lease had a residual around 65% based on your payments which would put your lease buyout around $21k-$22k if my guesstimate is close. Your buyout should lower your monthly payment, if you liked your car you should keep it. ALL the newer Subarus are consuming about a quart of oil between oil changes which is not a good thing. The boxer motor is solid with the CVT being the weak link but not terrible if you’re nice to it. If you want something else that is similar the new RAV4 is your best option with the CR-V being a close second. The Chevy Equinox doesn’t suck but only the 2.0 turbo is worth considering, everything else in the class is currently subpar with the likelihood of long service visits to be expected.
Equinox isn't on my radar, was just a semi-random example. 99% I will stay with another Japanese car.
I like my current outback, but I don't love it. Imho the 3.6L engine isn't fuel-efficient nor particularly powerful. I test drove the new Outback 2.4L with turbo this last Friday and it did strike me as a sporty car either.
It could be down to CVT as you imply it. I can't confirm or deny the oil loss. I was too lazy to check the oil dipstick, but I guess I should. From what I heard they went with much thinner oil than they should've to improve gas efficiency.

Both RAV4/CRV cars are a tad too small. Got spoiled by Outback 36cuft of cargo space behind the 2nd room and most of it horizontal until in these small hatchback SUVs which has more vertical (less useful) storage space.

My point is this: I like my current Outback, but I don't love it. Getting the same trim replacement seems to be 3-4 thousand more expensive than it should've been so that brings the price of outback dangerously close to much bigger cars, which I had to pay more for lease - I want MORE car for more money.

My current front runners are:
a) Honda Passport EX-L AWD - I test drove it today, and while it's a pretty big car it handles well. Got a pretty sweet lease offer for it. Y'all got until tomorrow evening to guess it.
b) Subaru Ascent Limited - that's the same money as Outback XT Limited (minus Nav+Sunroof - don't need either)
c) 2-3k more for Mazda CX-9 Carbon AWD

Speaking of buying out the car from lease - I am considering it with my other Honda, 2018 Accord 2.0T EX-L- a) It's 2.5 years old and only 6.3k miles on it - it's basically new. b) This exact trim is no being longer made. There's a very similar 2.0T Sport, but it is cloth only. c) Touring has everything, including much desired magnetic shocks, but it's just too darn expensive.
 
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Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
I like your three choices listed !

As for newer Subbies using oil ........wifes '18 goes through 1/2 qt between changes 6-8000 miles. My buddies wife has a '21 Outback and claims about the same thing. Both Mobil 1 full synthetic. You want an oil burner, get a Ford with the Coyote (5.0) motor !
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The one thing to consider with the Tahoe is it’s based on 30 year old engine, tranny and chassis which have proved to be 200k-300k mile platforms. The Tahoe is tried and true, expensive but if you keep it and maintain it it will last several decades, the ROI is definitely worth it.

The 5.3 liter engine is just an upgraded 327 smallblock Chevy, same with the new 10 speed, it’s a highly modified turbo 350. The frame is slight modified for a new independent rear suspension. These things have decades of engineering experience and a history of reliability.
The Tahoe I priced out had the 6.2 liter version of the same engine. The GM 5.3/6.2 has little commonality with a 1960s 327. The 5.3/6.2 is architecturally based off the 1997 Corvette C5 LS1, which was so different from a 327 that the only similarity I can see is a 90 degree V8 architecture and a single cam-in-block / OHV strategy. Even the LS1 block architecture is different, as the cam is higher up in the block than the old design, because they wanted shorter pushrods. The 5.3/6.2 includes continuously variable valve timing and cylinder deactivation under light loads, direct fuel injection, and completely different intake, exhaust, and ignition systems. This is essentially all new technology with dramatically increased complexity, and any reliability advantage from being an architectural derivation from a 1960s engine is, IMO, non-existent. I'm not a truck guy at all, but catching automotive news clips now and then shows that these engines are not especially trouble-free either, but GM seems determined to stick with large displacement naturally aspirated V8s while trying to maintain competitive fuel economy. Not that I'm picking on GM, Ford and Ram seem to have similar strategies for their heavy duty models. The few people I know who are serious about towing get the diesel versions with all three brands.

The GM 10-speed transmission, which was created in a joint development with Ford, has no lineage to a Turbo 350.


A body on frame design is superior for towing, but you can get that from GM, Ford, Ram, and Toyota. I am grateful trucks have never fascinated me. I have enough expensive preferences as it is.
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
Pretty much in agreement with Irv, remember the Chevy small block is the longest running(dating back to '55 with the 265) in terms of basic design(bore separation/90 degree cyl) There is NO question that LS based engines are they best bang for the buck out there, the aftermarket world bears this out in spades
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I like your three choices listed !

As for newer Subbies using oil ........wifes '18 goes through 1/2 qt between changes 6-8000 miles. My buddies wife has a '21 Outback and claims about the same thing. Both Mobil 1 full synthetic. You want an oil burner, get a Ford with the Coyote (5.0) motor !
Horizontally opposed engines always use more oil over time, because the remaining oil in the cylinders on shutdown doesn't drain back to the sump, and then it burns on start-up. Porsches have the same behavior.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
Pretty much in agreement with Irv, remember the Chevy small block is the longest running(dating back to '55 with the 265) in terms of basic design(bore separation/90 degree cyl) There is NO question that LS based engines are they best bang for the buck out there, the aftermarket world bears this out in spades
I think the small block was introduced in '54, but that's nit-picking. It's still made, too- just not in the US. The Mexican-South American and marine markets still use it.

This video shows what can be done with it- it has an injected LT-1 with the Delphi system removed and a Holly installed, twin turbo and other goodies.

 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
Nope , '55 as a 265. Love the vid, watched it many times !
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
Horizontally opposed engines always use more oil over time, because the remaining oil in the cylinders on shutdown don't drain back to the sump, and then it burns on start-up. Porsches has the same behavior.
Understood, but a half quart between changes is nothing. Ask any Ford guy with a modern Coyote (5.0) how much they go through between changes !!
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
regarding the Honda Passport / Pilot choice, IMO one of if not the best NA V6 offerings out there. The motor in it's basic configuration has been around for ever. Granted direct injection has been added , but it is as reliable as it gets.

My current ride is a 2017 BMW X5, which I thoroughly enjoy, but if I were to replace it tomorrow it would be with a Honda Ridgeline. No doubt about it !
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
So, not a single person would like to guess on Pilot 2021 EX-L AWD lease cost?
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Tesla has always had its own body shop, at least around here. Some cars can't be repaired even by the best shops around here and are sent to Tesla's own shop. There are "Certified" Tesla shops as well, since many materials and safety items are different than a typical car. I have a friend who works at the actual Tesla body shop.

I have had a standard '21 Subaru Outback (fully loaded w/eyesight) for over 2 months now while Subaru tries to figure out how to fix my 2004 WRX. They damaged a harness while performing my airbag recall last year and now it stopped working completely (passenger). Now they can't get a replacement for that harness period and are talking about repairing it, but since it is a safety item, they have to do it properly and certify it and that seems to be a bunch of legal hoops to deal with on their part.

This Outback was given to me with just 400 mi on it. I already drove it down to LA and its seen its fair share of use so far and I have to say, even without the turbo, it is a solid and comfortable car. The giant touch screen is hard to give up; even when driving my STI, I do miss that lol. The transmission leaves a bit to be desired, though they've improved the CVT a lot. The one thing you can't do much about is the weight. They do a good job at masking it, because the car still feels pretty nimble, but there's no getting around a curb weight like that. My brother in law has a '20 XT and I much prefer the power there. I found it to feel very similar to the base until you really get on it. The torque has to be delivered smoothly because of the CVT, so IMO, you don't really notice it. It feels a lot more torquey than the 3.6R to me. When you really get on it, I definitely felt the turbo motor has sufficient torque for this type and size of car, but the car is still heavy. The flat 6 is more expensive to maintain and is heavier, which are the only reasons I think they dropped it.

The Crosstrek is nice, but lacks some of the features of the Outback and gives up quite a bit of space for the price. I had a fully loaded one when my other car was getting its airbag recall done, though they did not have the 2.5l version at that time. I'd have to take the XT over it.

"Performance" and SUV don't exactly go together IMO lol. Though I understand. I bought my WRX wagon because I wanted room to haul stuff AND have decent power and handle great. My Forester XT delivered there as well, it handled almost as well as my STI (both modded suspension) in the mountains while being able to haul large items around. IMO, handling is more important to me than outright power, but a heavy car like a SUV, does need a sufficient amount to haul itself around. IMO, I'd have to just drive them all and pick one that ended up feeling right.

With the wagon potentially needing to be replaced if they can't fix it, Subaru doesn't really offer something like it anymore so I did start looking around as well. The Mazda 3 2.5L turbo AWD got some interest from me, but I'd need to drive one.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
This Outback was given to me with just 400 mi on it. I already drove it down to LA and its seen its fair share of use so far and I have to say, even without the turbo, it is a solid and comfortable car. The giant touch screen is hard to give up; even when driving my STI, I do miss that lol. The transmission leaves a bit to be desired, though they've improved the CVT a lot. The one thing you can't do much about is the weight. They do a good job at masking it, because the car still feels pretty nimble, but there's no getting around a curb weight like that. My brother in law has a '20 XT and I much prefer the power there. I found it to feel very similar to the base until you really get on it. The torque has to be delivered smoothly because of the CVT, so IMO, you don't really notice it. It feels a lot more torquey than the 3.6R to me. When you really get on it, I definitely felt the turbo motor has sufficient torque for this type and size of car, but the car is still heavy. The flat 6 is more expensive to maintain and is heavier, which are the only reasons I think they dropped it.
It is interesting you say that 3.6 is more expensive and heavier. a) Curb weight for 2018 3.6R is 3893lb where 2021 XT 2.4T is 3937lb. b) Limited XT trim is updated Limited 3.6R, but the 2021 model is nearly 3k more expensive on MSRP. My thought is they changed to 4 pot with turbo for one reason and one reason only - to improve fuel efficiency.

"Performance" and SUV don't exactly go together IMO lol. Though I understand. I bought my WRX wagon because I wanted room to haul stuff AND have decent power and handle great. My Forester XT delivered there as well, it handled almost as well as my STI (both modded suspension) in the mountains while being able to haul large items around. IMO, handling is more important to me than outright power, but a heavy car like a SUV, does need a sufficient amount to haul itself around. IMO, I'd have to just drive them all and pick one that ended up feeling right.
Performance SUV is a thing, from Dodge Durango RT (or higher trims) to Lambo Urus. Some years ago I test drove Accura MDX Hybrid sport (2017 I think it was) - 5.6second 0-60 in mid-size SUV - I call it sporty.
With the wagon potentially needing to be replaced if they can't fix it, Subaru doesn't really offer something like it anymore so I did start looking around as well. The Mazda 3 2.5L turbo AWD got some interest from me, but I'd need to drive one.
I like Outback size, shape, and features. I am not in love with the new platform ride, I like my current 2018 handling. The new turbo engine still struggles to deliver power to this heavy car. And most importantly I think that current prices are 3k too high, at least for higher trims.
I scheduled to test drive CX-9 Thursday evening after work. We'll see if the extra cost is worth it.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Overlord
Well not knowing all the particulars I'll say ...........$395 !
$395 would be possible I guess with a few thou down, which I am not doing. only one month down. the rest are 36 months for about 40k MSRP car. My lease offer is a bit higher than $395
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Tesla has always had its own body shop, at least around here. Some cars can't be repaired even by the best shops around here and are sent to Tesla's own shop. There are "Certified" Tesla shops as well, since many materials and safety items are different than a typical car. I have a friend who works at the actual Tesla body shop.
Tesla's body shop initiative started in 2018 after much customer moaning and groaning (and finger pointing at Tesla from independent body shops) with only 8 locations in the US. Just this year they opened the 9th location in Denver. Body shops are different than the Tesla service centers, which Tesla has always had.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Performance SUV is a thing, from Dodge Durango RT (or higher trims) to Lambo Urus. Some years ago I test drove Accura MDX Hybrid sport (2017 I think it was) - 5.6second 0-60 in mid-size SUV - I call it sporty.
Wife has a Durango and it has no issues at all moving around, and that's with the standard v6. It's a big vehicle though, and the Dodge shop around here are a bunch of morons. Other than a tank of bad gas, there have been zero issues with it. A lot of that probably has to do with it having a ZF transmission instead of a Dodge transmission.

We looked at quite a few SUV's and this was one of the few you could seat 5 comfortably, but still have a bit of storage. Even as massive as a Tahoe is, you still don't get that much storage if you use the 3rd row.

I'd have a lot more options, but kid #3 just had to exist...
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
It is interesting you say that 3.6 is more expensive and heavier. a) Curb weight for 2018 3.6R is 3893lb where 2021 XT 2.4T is 3937lb. b) Limited XT trim is updated Limited 3.6R, but the 2021 model is nearly 3k more expensive on MSRP. My thought is they changed to 4 pot with turbo for one reason and one reason only - to improve fuel efficiency.
They had to assuage the people who wanted more power, because the base model is pretty slow. Of course the turbo can get better mileage and that is definitely part of it. They went turbo to not have to build an additional motor in the flat 6. The 2.4 is going in many of their cars now. The MOTOR is heavier, not the car as a whole. They've added a lot of safety features and rigidity to the chassis, which is why the Outback is basically one of safest cars on the road right now.

I have to also be totally honest, I really do not like most of the driver aid features. I don't like the car to second guess me. Far too often it brakes unnecessarily. I don't like that it turns on the auto-shutoff at a light feature every time you get in (was told there is no way to fully disable that). The lane departure warning is acceptable, though it has to tell you about every little line it sees and the logic is not really there to handle anything but those lines. If there is a bike or someone turning and you have to perform a minor avoidance, the car has to let you know. It is annoying, but you can turn that off. I got to try it out a lot on the ~5hr drive to and from LA. The auto-distance cruise control is actually one of the nicest features because it actually worked most of the time, including on the Grapevine. I turned it off in actual traffic because I don't trust it in a busy situation.

Performance SUV is a thing, from Dodge Durango RT (or higher trims) to Lambo Urus. Some years ago I test drove Accura MDX Hybrid sport (2017 I think it was) - 5.6second 0-60 in mid-size SUV - I call it sporty.
Fast isn't what makes a couch sporty :)

I like Outback size, shape, and features. I am not in love with the new platform ride, I like my current 2018 handling. The new turbo engine still struggles to deliver power to this heavy car. And most importantly I think that current prices are 3k too high, at least for higher trims.
I scheduled to test drive CX-9 Thursday evening after work. We'll see if the extra cost is worth it.
My friend has a CX-9 and I drove it. Nice car, feels a bit large, but drives very nice. Mazda has the handling part down for sure. I like the Outback, but it is too bulky for me, despite it being the same footprint size as my STI. I have the STI for the fun stuff, don't need the hauler to be quick, but I do want it to handle like it wasn't a sofa. CX30 could be on my list too.
 
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