Need Sealed Boxes

[MacManNM]

Ok, mule here is what you are going to want to do for those 12” woofers you posted earlier

Box size, internal dimensions 25”h X 15”w X 10”d

I would build it out of ¾ mdf, in 2 layers. With a decent amount of absorber inside. You shouldn’t need any bracing inside the cabinet.

I recommend using an electronic crossover, not a passive unit in the sub, with a sharp 24db/oct roll-off, sending something like 70 and down to the sub, with 70 and up going to your loudspeakers. Are you not going to use your SVS units? If so, you are going to need to do a little more work.

 

[brian32672]

Ok, mule here is what you are going to want to do for those 12” woofers you posted earlier

Box size, internal dimensions 25”h X 15”w X 10”d

I would build it out of ¾ mdf, in 2 layers. With a decent amount of absorber inside. You shouldn’t need any bracing inside the cabinet.

I recommend using an electronic crossover, not a passive unit in the sub, with a sharp 24db/oct roll-off, sending something like 70 and down to the sub, with 70 and up going to your loudspeakers. Are you not going to use your SVS units? If so, you are going to need to do a little more work.

Actually Macman, could you do those figures for 10" I am pretty sure thats the size he will be getting.

 

[MacManNM]

Actually Macman, could you do those figures for 10" I am pretty sure thats the size he will be getting.

No, why?

1. I don't feel much like doing the calc for the 10.

2. He won't get the result he wants from the 10

3. the 12 will sound better, cause I SAID SO!!!!!!

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Yet another option

Mule,

Get two of these if the Cadence doesn't work out. It's based on the same premise of the Cadence (smaller box, big power, solid woofer), but with a beefier woofer and amp. They may be easier to dial in than two JL7's in a home made box with separate eq's, crossovers, and a stereo amp.
http://www.partexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-762
(Assuming you want to drop $1100 )
The dual 10" may even be better for that punch you're looking for, and will run $700.
http://www.partexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-760

 

[WmAx]

.....WmAx, I want you in on this,

...why won't that work, Chris?.....

All information has been discussed in the prior thread concerning this subject. The solution for properly integrating the speakers is to use an active crossover of sufficient flexibility[a DSP device will be optimal] to use each speaker in the correct band. Example: 4th order L-R slopes, SVS[<45Hz], Sealed add-ons[>45Hz, <110Hz], Mains[>110Hz]. The specific frequencies given are only for purposes of illustration. But the fact remains that you MUST use a crossover to direct the proper bands to each module for optimal performance. You stated that you had not interest in doing this in the earlier thread, and planned to run the mains full range on top of this; a very bad idea for reasons that were detailed in the previous thread on this issue.

-Chris

 

[brian32672]

No, why?
1. I don't feel much like doing the calc for the 10.
2. He won't get the result he wants from the 10
3. the 12 will sound better, cause I SAID SO!!!!!!

Thank goodness, I know where not to yurn.

 

[MacManNM]

Thank goodness, I know where not to yurn.

Now your learning!

Seriously, if he wants to use 10's that’s fine, I can run the numbers again.

Mule: I strongly recommend the configuration that wmax and I have suggested many times to you. I.E. using an active unit in a band pass configuration so that you have total control of the crossover slopes, phase and frequencies.

 

[brian32672]

Seriously, if he wants to use 10's that’s fine, I can run the numbers again.

I'm sure he at this point would rather do it on his own

 

[mulester7]

Box size, internal dimensions 25”h X 15”w X 10”d

I recommend using an electronic crossover, not a passive unit in the sub, with a sharp 24db/oct roll-off, sending something like 70 and down to the sub, with 70 and up going to your loudspeakers. Are you not going to use your SVS units? If so, you are going to need to do a little more work.

.....Mac, first, is the shape of the box you detailed important?....5 parts high, by three parts wide, by two parts deep?....I mean, is that "specific" shape important for the range of 50-150?....those internal measurement numbers of 25x15x10 also give in internal volume of 2.173 cubic feet....the soundstream website said .6 to .8 cubic feet for suggested variables of the internal volume for the Van Gogh 12 inch element as per sealed box....yeah, I'm thinking 12 now, Brian....

.....I also designate crossovers as passive and active....passive to me says the source signal or the pre-amped millivolt signals pass through the crossover, i.e. electronic crossovers.....active to me says amplified watts are going through the crossover, i.e. internally mounted crossovers and L-pads....back to the drawing board.....

.....Buck, I want to stay with sealed boxes....I gots the power to shove them....

.....WmAx, if I need to cut the bottom of the full-range signal to the mains and rears, I can do so from the satellite outputs of the Paradigm unit at 50, 80, or 120, but the mains and rears are two-way, which says the low end squats to pee, and I probably won't need to cut the bottom of the mains regiment....this is getting interesting.....

.....edit....oops, was dividing by 1726 instead of 1728....internal measurements of 25x15x10=3750 cubic inches divided by 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot=2.17 cubic footses....the Soundstream site says the 12 inch element I am most interested in needs an internal volume of .6 to .8 cubic feet....here's a question....does the internal volume suggested discount the part of the element occupying the internal volume?....I mean the cone and magnet structure of the element inside the internal volume?.....we're after the truth and to learn here, guys.....

 

[WmAx]

.....

.....I also designate crossovers as passive and active....passive to me says the source signal or the pre-amped millivolt signals pass through the crossover, i.e. electronic crossovers.....active to me says amplified watts are going through the crossover, i.e. internally mounted crossovers and L-pads....back to the drawing board.....

Active refers to line-level electronic crossover.

.....WmAx, if I need to cut the bottom of the full-range signal to the mains and rears, I can do so from the satellite outputs of the Paradigm unit at 50, 80, or 120, but the mains and rears are two-way, which says the low end squats to pee, and I probably won't need to cut the bottom of the mains regiment....this is getting interesting.....

Can the Paradigm crossover route, for example, in a 3 way[4th order Linkwitz-Riley] routed configuration in the following configuration: <50 to the SVS subs, 50-120 to the sealed subs, and >120 to the mains? Also, does the Paradigm have parametric bands to help correct room mode errors?

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

.....at the Soundstream site, it says the "Picasso" 12 inch element is rated at 350 watts, and has an X-max in inches of 0.413, and that's the linear excursion movement spec....the "Van Gogh" 12 inch element, is rated at 600 watts, and has an X-max in inches of 0.649....0.413?.....can anyone raise their hand and tell me why I decided to sip coffee with ole' Van?....especially when I could be firing two ohm bullets with 1250 headroom?....hey, don't worry, I'm thankful and my heart is pure, haha......

http://www.soundstream.com/sub/products_subs_vang_d.html

.....question....is this X-max spec one direction only, or is the total excursion movement twice the spec?.....

 

[brian32672]

I think someone else posted this here. But Here use this as your cannon the MTX 22" subwoofer

 

[mulester7]

.....Brian, I can only laugh when I see that 22 inch car sub.....car sub....THOUSANDS OF WATTS, haha....I suspect people would look different to each other after a few minutes of that sub......

 

[mulester7]

Can the Paradigm crossover route, for example, in a 3 way[4th order Linkwitz-Riley] routed configuration in the following configuration: <50 to the SVS subs, 50-120 to the sealed subs, and >120 to the mains? Also, does the Paradigm have parametric bands to help correct room mode errors?

-Chris

.....WmAx, I'm sorry to have honestly missed this one last evening.....

.....welcome back, now you're thinking, it's my fault, I wasn't giving you enough to work with....sure, with a second Paradigm X-30 unit, 50 down gets sent to the current SVS-box-firewood from the first unit, 50-120 can be sent to the sealed boxes with the bottom cut twice for a 36 db rolloff from the second unit's sub outputs, and 120-up, 80-up, or 50-up, full-range, bottom-cut twice also, can be sent to the mains regiment from the second unit....but, I assure you, the mains won't be cut any lower than 80 if cut at all, and the sealed boxes will probably be fine up to 150....we'll see....I guess it's time to get some wood and order a couple of 12 inch elements....

.....oh yeah, that 'X-max in inches rating" of 0.649 on the Van Gogh 12 from Soundstream....that's from "at rest" to full extension in either direction, so the total linear excursion movement range of the 12 inch elements I am considering is right at 1.3 inches with 600 watt rating....quite decent potential for punch and edge I would say, especially being dual voice-coiled for paralleling....Brian called me back right before I left for the truckstop for a double chicken-fried with fries platter, salad bar, and tea, with a ruling on the X-max rating....to bed....they're killin' me at work....burp.....

 

[WmAx]

.
.....welcome back, now you're thinking, it's my fault, I wasn't giving you enough to work with....sure, with a second Paradigm X-30 unit, 50 down gets sent to the current SVS-box-firewood from the first unit, 50-120 can be sent to the sealed boxes with the bottom cut twice for a 36 db rolloff from the second unit's sub outputs, and 120-up, 80-up, or 50-up, full-range, bottom-cut twice also, can be sent to the mains regiment from the second unit....but, I assure you, the mains won't be cut any lower than 80 if cut at all, and the sealed boxes will probably be fine up to 150....we'll see....I guess it's time to get some wood and order a couple of 12 inch elements..

What we have here is a train wreck. Refer to prior thread which I linked in the beginning of this thread. Also, it is apparent that the Paradigm units are not sufficient for optimal performance, especially with 18db/octave slopes and very limited frequency selections, and considering the unusual set-up that you propose. This is not steep enough a rate for the narrow bands you want to cross, nor is it optimal[with odd order slope]. A 4th order L-R system will simplify matters. It's also hard for me to understand why you don't want[I base this on your dismisall of systems that can do this in the other thread] a system that can equalize the bass band to correct room errors, considering your apparent concern for bass as demonstrated by your intent to use a 2 way subwoofer system. Anyways, I'm fininshed attempting to hlep this thread, since you are apparently not [really] interested in such.

-Chris

 

[mulester7]

What we have here is a train wreck. Refer to prior thread which I linked in the beginning of this thread. Also, it is apparent that the Paradigm units are not sufficient for optimal performance, especially with 18db/octave slopes and very limited frequency selections, and considering the unusual set-up that you propose. This is not steep enough a rate for the narrow bands you want to cross, nor is it optimal[with odd order slope]. A 4th order L-R system will simplify matters. It's also hard for me to understand why you don't want[I base this on your dismisall of systems that can do this in the other thread] a system that can equalize the bass band to correct room errors, considering your apparent concern for bass as demonstrated by your intent to use a 2 way subwoofer system. Anyways, I'm fininshed attempting to hlep this thread, since you are apparently not [really] interested in such.

-Chris

.....Chris, in the range of 150 down, 18 db rolloffs are plenty sufficient, and I'll have more than 18 db rolloff on most of the cuts....every speaker I will have will be front-firing, so the room conditions, which are fine anyway comparing damping to brightness, will be ok, and I'm convinced it will be a matter of possible phase overlaps....so you're gonna' pull out on me, huh, Chris?....I've got an appointment with a car shop that carries JL elements tomorrow, and now I'm facing bitter northwinds alone....where's the love?....where's the trainwreck?.....

 

[mulester7]

.....the guy at the car shop said on the phone he wasn't sure how much even 12 inch elements would POP me at 10-12 feet, as his ear is trained for the car subs making their first bounce within inches, and being contained in the rather smallish cabin of a vehicle....we'll see....he has JL elements which he said didn't need as many watts in a sealed box, hmmmm....the Cadence X-Sub is still in the mix, with it bottom-cut at 80, but SURELY, 1250 watts of headroom can effectively push a 12-inch sub-element in a sealed box rated at 600 watts that has a total excursion movement of 1.3 inches, and will make me FEEL it's fruits from 10-12 feet....comes the 'morrow....I'll report if I get up in time, haha....you think I'm kidding?....ask Brian.....

 

[brian32672]

I'll report if I get up in time, haha....you think I'm kidding?....ask Brian.....

Yea, the guy doesn't get out of bed until 3:00 pm. Man what a life....

 

[mulester7]

Yea, the guy doesn't get out of bed until 3:00 pm. Man what a life....

.....and you're punching a clock?....the snooze button, maybe.....

 

[mulester7]

.....I'm a night owl, Brian, as you well know....a night owl who usually works at night when he does work, so two counts say keep the cycle....I love to tour Little Rock Metropolitan about 2 in the morning on the motorcycle when the streets are about empty and the lights are saturated and pretty....lately, it's about mid 70's at two am, and I can be very comfortable with a light jacket open.....

.....the more I think of it, I'm not even sure I have to have pop from the small cannons, I would settle for a different "voice" sitting on top of the sub-range....one with more brassy solid authority and quickness to sit center-stage and be supported from the corners underneath....boys, it's out there, I can hear it breathin'....may set an alarm for eleven, haha......