Need advise on how to get better stereo sound from AVENTAGE 1060

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iggymarsu

Enthusiast
It just hit me that I have a V-1800 sitting in storage!! You think I might be able to do a factory reset on it & use it an a power / ext amp?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It just hit me that I have a V-1800 sitting in storage!! You think I might be able to do a factory reset on it & use it an a power / ext amp?
If it is in 100% working order, yes. Wiring would seem a little messy and you have to be careful (such as tape/or blank plug all the other inputs except the ones connected to your main AVR) with two volume controls in use.
 
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iggymarsu

Enthusiast
Thanks everyone..& especially PENG. You gave me alot to mull over. Over the weekend I went over the setup & had a good hard listen. I pumped the volume up to 83db & I realised the avr does drive the speaker well & I was looking at this all wrong. I still think I can get better clarity & separation from the speakers but power maybe not be the solution. Will an external DAC be the way to go?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks everyone..& especially PENG. You gave me alot to mull over. Over the weekend I went over the setup & had a good hard listen. I pumped the volume up to 83db & I realised the avr does drive the speaker well & I was looking at this all wrong. I still think I can get better clarity & separation from the speakers but power maybe not be the solution. Will an external DAC be the way to go?
Not likely that an external dac will improve anything over your current dac. Better speakers are usually the way to go, or positioning the speakers better or adding room treatments....
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Not likely that an external dac will improve anything over your current dac. Better speakers are usually the way to go, or positioning the speakers better or adding room treatments....
That is the correct advice. 99% of the time the route to better sound is better speakers. Changing electronics seldom improves matters changing to better speakers pretty much invariably does. The reason is simple. Compared to electronics speakers more often than not have serious shortcomings. I will go further and state that the majority of speakers have highly significant but different shortcomings. That makes choosing speakers so very difficult. It so often comes down to how you want to take your poison. Worse few speakers have been subjected to third party measurement and specs are more often vague in the extreme and very often purposely sparse and frankly misleading. So frank lying often comes to mind. So this makes choosing speakers extremely difficult. When it comes to speakers it really is a jungle.
 
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iggymarsu

Enthusiast
Does this have ypao and if so, are you using it?
Yes but im not very impressed with YPAO, my front stage are wrong as it defaults them all to large instead of small & the distances are also wrong so I have to manually adjust them. Wondering if I should get a umik-1.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yes but im not very impressed with YPAO, my front stage are wrong as it defaults them all to large instead of small & the distances are also wrong so I have to manually adjust them. Wondering if I should get a umik-1.
I think UMIK-1 + REW measurements might be helpful if the sound quality isn't good and you can't figure out what's wrong with your system.

But if your system sounds good, then it may be something that you might use a few times and never use again. :D

Measurement on paper is one thing. How your system actually sounds is another thing. For me, I did the measurements. Got the FR graph to be flatter than Through mode/bypass. But still went with Through mode even though Through mode had the worst measurements. Why go with the worst measurements? Because it sounded the BEST. :D
 
S

SVSDual

Enthusiast
Yes but im not very impressed with YPAO, my front stage are wrong as it defaults them all to large instead of small & the distances are also wrong so I have to manually adjust them. Wondering if I should get a umik-1.
I agree about ypao. I would recommend only using it for bass management if you're using a sub. Set speakers to small and crossover sub(s) at 60 or 80hz. I'd always recommend using bass management with a sub.

Turn off any ypao equalizers. Set all speaker and sub db's to neutral/zero.

Then position your speakers and subs from there. If you have to add or subtract any volumefrom your subs, do it on the subs themselves if possible.

If not using a sub, I'd recommend using the Pure Direct mode and then positioning speakers accordingly.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes but im not very impressed with YPAO, my front stage are wrong as it defaults them all to large instead of small & the distances are also wrong so I have to manually adjust them. Wondering if I should get a umik-1.
Many of the avr based room eq software programs will set your speakers to large if they detect an f3 of 40hz....marketing departments not wanting to insult the size of your packages so to speak. Just change to small and adjust crossover to taste. Distances may be different for acoustic reasons, and particularly for a sub to account for processing time in the sub amp.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Agreed with HD.
The acoustical reasons it would set the distances differently than they actually are is because the mic “sees” the room acoustically. So if you leave ypao or audyssey on but change the distance values, it’s no wonder you would have problems. The normal process is to leave the distances that RC finds, even if you don’t use the RC.
 
J

JRiggs

Audiophyte
YPAO and most other room correction software will set your speakers to large. Just go into the settings and change them to small and adjust the crossover to where you want them/sound best. Same for the levels. As for the distances being off...how do you know this? Do you actually understand this calibration? I am very certain that it’s not doing it wrong.
If you have another mic and REW, you can then copy the YPAO results to the custom file and from there, you can further adjust the EQ for every speaker.
 
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iggymarsu

Enthusiast
YPAO and most other room correction software will set your speakers to large. Just go into the settings and change them to small and adjust the crossover to where you want them/sound best. Same for the levels. As for the distances being off...how do you know this? Do you actually understand this calibration? I am very certain that it’s not doing it wrong.
If you have another mic and REW, you can then copy the YPAO results to the custom file and from there, you can further adjust the EQ for every speaker.
Yup, looks like the way to find out. Still waiting for my u-mik1 to arrive. Something fun to play with.
 
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iggymarsu

Enthusiast
OK, so finally I am getting my hands on the Cambridge Audio 851W. Anyone familar with this setup? I think I got the hang of the pre-out connections, but are there any changes I need to make in the Setup or Advanced Speaker configuration of my Aventage AVR? I know in the bi-amp menu there is a setting for Ext Amp but I am not sure if this is meant for setting up the ext amp in Zone 2, which is not what I am doing, as mine will be in the sme zone.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Well... conventional wisdom says if you have enough power to hit the spl you're looking for then any improvements made would be with new speakers and/or sub(s). What you're chasing after right now is just costly, more complicated and likely no audible improvements.
 
Ponzio

Ponzio

Audioholic Samurai
Run YPAO 3, 4 or 5 times, tweak the setup settings to your preferences by accessing your home LAN (local area network) web browsers GUI settings. Much more detailed than accessing your TV/monitor.

Example: http://192.168.1.247/setup

I'm assuming you have the 1060 connected to your home network.

Save/backup your 2 or 3 favorites for music/home theater to load them for different scenarios and Bob's Your Uncle.

BTW, for music I've found that 'Straight' mode to be the most pleasant, assuming ... again ... you have a sub or two.

There is no perfect setup. Each room, your tonal preferences, your speakers, all play a part in getting what you think is perfection. As some folks have pointed out, your speakers may be the weakest link in the chain, not the 1060.
 
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pcosmic

Audioholic
Bi-amp ? in your setup, it is not getting you much benefit

Step 1) Do you have ECO Mode or set the impedance setting to 6 ohm in your receiver? or something else that painfully gimps your system? These 2 settings will badly current limit the amp sections and make it sound bad. If you did, turn off ECO mode and change impedance back to 8 ohm.
Do you have adaptive DRC enabled? Kill it for 2 channel. It is just going to abuse your 2 channel listening experience.

Step 2) Set DSP to 2 channel stereo and use bass management. Take some measurements and manually adjust PEQ to taste. Save those 2 channel peq settings and other 2 channel optimization settings under one of your "pattern" settings for switching back and forth between 2 channel and 5 channel easily. I really have no idea why some dudes suggest "pure direct" as soon as they hear 2 channel stereo. Your receiver came with extra goodies like bass management and PEQ. Use them.

If step 1 and step 2 didn't satisfy you, it could be that the preamp/dac on the RX-A1080 is not cutting it for you.
In that case, get this integrated amplifier if you have more cash and connect it to your Cambridge streamer for 2 channel listening.
https://www.adorama.com/yaas2200sl.html
You can connect the power amp main-in (bypassing its preamp) of this amp to your receiver's 2 front channel preouts when you're in 5 channel for multichannel music or hometheater.
The above mentioned setup could be referred to as a 2 channel/multi-channel hybrid system.

Mid priced option,
https://www.adorama.com/yaas1200sl.html

Lower price option but still plenty good...( Anything lower than this won't be a step up from the RX-A1080),
Get this integrated amplifier and connect it to your Cambridge streamer. No preamp bypass option on this .
https://www.adorama.com/yaas801sl.html

All 3 of these integrated amps should manhandle you and your speakers....show you a good time ;)

If none of these integrated amps paired with the Cambridge streamer satisfy you, toss your Monitor Audio speakers when the trash truck stops by and get the Elac Unifi 2.0 series speakers (lower cash option), JBL HDI series (higher cash option) or something better....
 
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iggymarsu

Enthusiast
@pcosmic thanks! That was a good read! :)

I have done as you told for step 1.

For step 2; What I did was in the manual setup, chose the 1st pattern for my 5.1 & saved the 2nd patten for 2 fronts. I did try to play around with 2 large only or 2 small at 80hz + sub - this was tricky sometimes I get fuller SQ & on some songs I don’t. Also I don’t know if the Yam supports LFE+ Main, as I can’t find this info in the manual or on any forums.


What I don’t know how to do is setup the DSP for 2 channel with bass mgmt & adjusting the PEQ. This I’m kind of clueless. Could you break it down for me?
 
P

pcosmic

Audioholic
Meanwhile this my setup
Oh, I missed your comment that you now bought the Cambridge 851W power amplifier and I just saw your diagram. Your diagram shows that you’ve already set up some type of 2 channel/multi-channel hybrid setup.

  • Your stand-alone 2 channel setup is Cambridge streamer/preamp balanced out+Cambridge power amp balanced in. Your stand-alone multichannel music setup for multichannel SACDs, multichannel blu-ray audio or movies is RX-A1060+2 unbalanced front preouts into 851W unbalanced in.
  • You are now wondering how to make the RX-A1060 sound better in 2 channel mode with receiver pre-outs going into the 851W, i.e., you are essentially using the RX-A1060 as a preamp and attempting to reap the benefits of bass management, full PEQ and other features (which setup A, ie., your Cambridge streamer + power amp deprived you of. Most 2 channel systems don’t offer things like that). You want to make the RX-A1060 sound better as a pre-amp in 2 channel mode?
You satisfied step 1 of my previous comment (a) ECO mode off b) speaker impedance set to 8 ohms on the receiver c) YPAO volume off d) Adaptive DRC off)

Step 2)
  • Now turn off “Enhancer” off before you start tweaking things. It can help with really crappy mp3s. It can confuse things for higher quality recordings, hires, flac etc. A guy who spent the cash on these 2 cambridge units probably doesn’t have too many crappy mp3s and has better quality recordings (hopefully atleast redbook cd quality or above). So, turn it off for now.
  • Under Setup/Sound, ensure dynamic range is set to “maximum”.
  • Do you have 2 subs or one? 2.2 setup with 2 subwoofers is ideal. 2.1 with a single subwoofer is not so ideal. Have you done a subcrawl? If you only have a single sub, ensure that you’re able to still find a feasible spot closer to/between your 2 front main speakers while subcrawling (to prevent hearing it localized). Dudes might say you can’t localize it if a crossover is set to 80 hz and below. But, you will start to hear it localized if you stray too far from the above mentioned position with a single subwoofer.
  • Did you run YPAO when you set up your 5 channel? If you have not, run YPAO. YPAO will ask you at the end in a unsuspecting manner “Should I turn YPAO/Adaptive DRC on and try to screw up your 2 channel listening?”. Say “No”. Ensure that it’s not messing up distances too much. If it is, there are other problems.
  • If you set your cal mic and ran YPAO right, the receiver will try to set things up for accurate bass management (make it a li’l easier for you). It will set your speaker distances, speaker levels/subwoofer levels (level matching), things required for integrating subwoofer phase with your mains, etc, etc. You will be using these settings in 2 channel as well. Now, I don’t know anything about your monitor audio 200 speakers, but, setting your 2 front speaker crossover to 80 hz should be a start. Yamaha does have LFE+main and you can use it. But, don’t do anything with it yet and start complicating things. We’re just leaving the crossover at 80 hz now. Your speaker is not going to be too happy with frequencies much lower.
  • Now, keep you finger away from the “pure direct” or any other pure button that other pure dudes are you asking you to press. You want to be able to use the stuff you did for bass management with the help of YPAO in the above step. You want to be able to use EQ. Pure direct will nullify those. So, set the “DSP Program” on your receiver to “2 ch Stereo”, which will let you use those things.
  • Now, the only thing you’re going to do is get into Setup/Speaker/Manual setup/Parametric EQ. Since you ran YPAO earlier, it would have set this Parametric EQ to “YPAO: flat”. It may show you a crazy looking squiggly curve (depending on how deficient your room/placement is, etc etc). I am assuming you didn’t like how this sounded or did you?..……If it sounded fine to you, stop here………………..If it’s sounds like it’s missing something a.k.a doesn’t “sound full”, sounds like someone threw a blanket over your speakers, etc ,etc (In many cases, it can sound that way), we go further and try to make the best of what your current speakers can offer.
  • Set that Parametic EQ to “Manual” and get into that module. You will start with a clear flat line on parametric EQ for each speaker. The reason you are starting with a clear flat line on parametric EQ is because you can tweak things from here onwards and add some “relative coloration” and compensate your “individual taste”. Yes, life is short, your room is riddled with issues, speakers can suck, 2 channel components are voiced a certain way, recordings get botched all day long and every 100k+ purity system I’ve heard sounds fake as hell too (I play several musical instruments/write music actually and used to make guest appearances in live shows back in the days.) So, forget the “music reproduction like how the artist intended” confounded kool-aid at this price point and sugar it up to your specific taste. Once you get into high end 2 channel systems, you don’t have any flexibility. You get it and that’s it! You are required to measure and fix things with physical room treatments. Many of them don’t even have tone controls.
  • I don’t know how much flexibility you have in the RX-A1060. I have the RX- A3080 i.e., the 1060’s newer fat brother and the fatty may have more going on. But, I hope you atleast have the 7 eq bands to work with under manual parametric eq? Don’t touch the frequencies under 1k and start bloating it up yet. For starters, try boosting frequencies 1khz, 2 khz, 4khz and 6.35 khz by 2 to 3 db or just a tad bit, while keeping Q at 0.5 (keep it broader to start with) and see if you are starting to like the sound of that. Does it start to sound fuller? We’re just simulating the voicing you may start to hear in some high end components. Also, We are just using this eq on the receiver to get some feel for the specific voicing you may like. Maybe, you like 12.7khz and 16 khz boosted by 1 db as well (make it feel the top end’s a bit airy, etc). Some guys like a cool sound (dips between 2k and 4k) and some like the “smiley” curve (ugh, not my thing).. Just play with this PEQ for a bit and try to never boost a frequency over 4dB. Fine tune by tightening up Q values and moving frequncy bands as needed. This eq may be a cheap way of figuring out the voicing/signature you may like in the first place on components for 2 channel listening. It will help you limit buying voiced gear that’s not meant for your ear and navigate this condition known as audiophilia without emptying your wallet too soon.
Either way, if you spent time with the above mentioned things, things could start to sound really good on your 1060+851 combination. If you’ve tried everything and it still sounds kinda like ass, it may be time to get better resolving higher performance speakers.

One thing I forgot to mention, the RX-A3080 has an option to switch between three DAC filter types under setup/sound/DAC digital filter. If the 1060 has this, there may be a filter you prefer for the genre of music you are listening to at any time (short latency, slow roll-off, etc). As far as room treatments go for 2 channel, don’t go crazy without measurements or better speakers. You could put up some diffusion panels (no absorption) on the wall right behind your listening position for now. That should be a good start.
 
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