Need Advice on New Surrounds. What is good to pair with my PSB's?

[juryman]

Doing some remodeling in my basement media room and my Imagine Mini's on stands must go. Looking to go in-wall surrounds behind the new sectional. I have PSB Imagine's for my LCR and a SVS sub. Would like to at least stay with the same speaker design (titanium/hard dome tweeter & polypropylene woofers) to match the sound of my PSB's. I have a 5.1 setup with a Onkyo RZ820.

Easy choice would be to stick with PSB but their selection is limited. W-LCR are out of my range. Was suggested to go with in-ceiling like CS850 in the wall. That should match. Also found some older CW262 on-line that I think would work.

Given the limited choices from PSB I looked at other brands that have close to the same design. Some that Im looking at:
Martin Logan IW6
Klipsch R-5502- WII
Def Tech DI 5.5BPS

Would any of these match up well with my PSB's? Are there any other brands that I should look at?

Or am I over-thinking this?

Any advice would help at this point.

 

[shadyJ]

The transducer diaphragm composition isn't what makes speakers sound alike or different. You can have speaker drivers with very different transducer materials that similar and can also have similar transducer materials sound very different. The overall deisgn is for more determinate of the sound character. Along the speakers you listed, I would guess the Deftech's are the safest bet, but I would also be looking at Polk and Revel for in-walls.

 

[TLS Guy]

The transducer diaphragm composition isn't what makes speakers sound alike or different. You can have speaker drivers with very different transducer materials that similar and can also have similar transducer materials sound very different. The overall deisgn is for more determinate of the sound character. Along the speakers you listed, I would guess the Deftech's are the safest bet, but I would also be looking at Polk and Revel for in-walls.

That is true. The designer is much more important than the materials. However, quite a few designers never get a consistent sound, all way different. That is usually a very bad sign. I think one of that hardest skills to develop is have a consistent sound field. That probably is the last thing that really comes to you.

 

[juryman]

The transducer diaphragm composition isn't what makes speakers sound alike or different. You can have speaker drivers with very different transducer materials that similar and can also have similar transducer materials sound very different. The overall deisgn is for more determinate of the sound character. Along the speakers you listed, I would guess the Deftech's are the safest bet, but I would also be looking at Polk and Revel for in-walls.

So, please, help me understand. I was told that I should at least try to stick with the same speaker composition. PSB are hard dome titanium so at least keep your surrounds hard dome. But then there is aluminum, titanium, gold. Is one better than the other? Does one denote a lesser quality speaker over another? Also, I was told that smaller tweeters and woofers denote a lower quality speaker. 3/4 inch dome tweeter, for example, is a speaker of lower quality and build. Is that true?

Several others have recommended Polk. Don’t understand what’s so special about them. Guess I have to do some more research.

Bottom line, just looking for a good pair of surrounds to match my PSB’s, because they don’t seem to have anything to offer. Unless I find a pair of CW 262’s on eBay or something.

 

[TLS Guy]

So, please, help me understand. I was told that I should at least try to stick with the same speaker composition. PSB are hard dome titanium so at least keep your surrounds hard dome. But then there is aluminum, titanium, gold. Is one better than the other? Does one denote a lesser quality speaker over another? Also, I was told that smaller tweeters and woofers denote a lower quality speaker. 3/4 inch dome tweeter, for example, is a speaker of lower quality and build. Is that true?

Several others have recommended Polk. Don’t understand what’s so special about them. Guess I have to do some more research.

Bottom line, just looking for a good pair of surrounds to match my PSB’s, because they don’t seem to have anything to offer. Unless I find a pair of CW 262’s on eBay or something.

Shady is right, and you have received false information. The driver cone and dome materials make for little. That is in the balance of the speaker and a function of the designer.

None of us have heard many speakers, and practically never done serious listening. to many speakers other than what we have owned.

So we can't help you. You can start be looking at measurements. However, a speaker can measure well and still be a dog. However if it measures badly, it will be a dog. So you can exclude speakers that measure badly, but after that you are on your own.

I consider myself lucky, that I have never had to speaker shop, as I am the designer and builder, and I thank my lucky stars for that every day.

Some of the information you quote here is in the laugh out loud category.

For example, a speaker with a 3/4" dome may be a very good speaker. In general a 3/4" dome will perform better than a 1" dome. However there is a catch, as a tweeter needs to be shut down by the crossover so that it is down an octave preferably, at the speaker resonance Fs. That generally means a tweeter that is 3/4" needs to be crossed no lower than the 3.5 to 4K range. That means it needs to be used in a three way design. Further the mid will have to be a good one, and cover the speech discrimination band. So a good mid needs a bandwidth of 400 Hz to 4 KHz preferably. Unfortunately there are few that can do this at power, and I regret to say there are fewer now than there used to be. That is an indictment of the speaker industry. The reason being that, the speech discrimination band is where the ear is most sensitive.

There is a lot of work that has to go into a good speaker and that is the reason there a more bad than good, but I think the tide continues to turn in the right direction.

 

[Eppie]

I have used Paradigm for both in-wall and in-ceiling speakers and have been pretty happy with them. The challenge with in-walls is that there are so few measurements available, and that is the only real indicator of whether speakers have similar sound characteristics. Paradigm has the CI Home series, Pro series and Elite series depending on your budget. I have the CI Home H55-LCR as a center channel (paired with older model in-walls) in our living room and the CI Pro P-65R as ATMOS in the home theater. I believe Gene has used some of the Elite series speakers in the past.

 

[juryman]

Shady is right, and you have received false information. The driver cone and dome materials make for little. That is in the balance of the speaker and a function of the designer.

None of us have heard many speakers, and practically never done serious listening. to many speakers other than what we have owned.

So we can't help you. You can start be looking at measurements. However, a speaker can measure well and still be a dog. However if it measures badly, it will be a dog. So you can exclude speakers that measure badly, but after that you are on your own.

I consider myself lucky, that I have never had to speaker shop, as I am the designer and builder, and I thank my lucky stars for that every day.

Some of the information you quote here is in the laugh out loud category.

For example, a speaker with a 3/4" dome may be a very good speaker. In general a 3/4" dome will perform better than a 1" dome. However there is a catch, as a tweeter needs to be shut down by the crossover so that it is down an octave preferably, at the speaker resonance Fs. That generally means a tweeter that is 3/4" needs to be crossed no lower than the 3.5 to 4K range. That means it needs to be used in a three way design. Further the mid will have to be a good one, and cover the speech discrimination band. So a good mid needs a bandwidth of 400 Hz to 4 KHz preferably. Unfortunately there are few that can do this at power, and I regret to say there are fewer now than there used to be. That is an indictment of the speaker industry. The reason being that, the speech discrimination band is where the ear is most sensitive.

There is a lot of work that has to go into a good speaker and that is the reason there a more bad than good, but I think the tide continues to turn in the right direction.

@TLS Guy Apologies. Maybe I should have posted this question in the Beginners and Audiophytes section. When I try to spend good money I expect to get good stuff. Especially when Im looking to put holes in my walls I dont want to regret it down the road. I am a little bit above novice when it comes to HT stuff. My background is IT. I like to dabble in it. Thats about the extent of it.

I posted a similar question in another AV forums site with the same list of speakers I was considering. Here is what he said, which unfortunately it seems, I repeated here.

The ML IW6 you mentioned is $280 apiece at Crutchfield, vs $150 each for the JBL 260W so you're talking double the price. (The 280W is $225 but you get an 8" woofer not the 6.5" woofer of the IW6 and 260W, so you're still getting more speaker for $55 less). Plus both JBLs have full 1" tweeters, while that ML has just a 3/4" tweeter...I tend to equate 3/4" tweeters with really really low-grade entry level stuff, similar to a receiver that has spring clip speaker connections instead of binding posts---just screams "bargain basement extreme cost cutting" in my book.

I love my LCR PSB's and the sound in both music and movies they put out. Some say PSB's are more neutral sounding, which Im ok with. I just would like a set of in-wall rear surrounds that would be a good complement.

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy Apologies. Maybe I should have posted this question in the Beginners and Audiophytes section. When I try to spend good money I expect to get good stuff. Especially when Im looking to put holes in my walls I dont want to regret it down the road. I am a little bit above novice when it comes to HT stuff. My background is IT. I like to dabble in it. Thats about the extent of it.

I posted a similar question in another AV forums site with the same list of speakers I was considering. Here is what he said, which unfortunately it seems, I repeated here.

The ML IW6 you mentioned is $280 apiece at Crutchfield, vs $150 each for the JBL 260W so you're talking double the price. (The 280W is $225 but you get an 8" woofer not the 6.5" woofer of the IW6 and 260W, so you're still getting more speaker for $55 less). Plus both JBLs have full 1" tweeters, while that ML has just a 3/4" tweeter...I tend to equate 3/4" tweeters with really really low-grade entry level stuff, similar to a receiver that has spring clip speaker connections instead of binding posts---just screams "bargain basement extreme cost cutting" in my book.

I love my LCR PSB's and the sound in both music and movies they put out. Some say PSB's are more neutral sounding, which Im ok with. I just would like a set of in-wall rear surrounds that would be a good complement.

If you want in walls with the quality of the PSBs, I would go with these.

 

[Danzilla31]

@TLS Guy Apologies. Maybe I should have posted this question in the Beginners and Audiophytes section. When I try to spend good money I expect to get good stuff. Especially when Im looking to put holes in my walls I dont want to regret it down the road. I am a little bit above novice when it comes to HT stuff. My background is IT. I like to dabble in it. Thats about the extent of it.

I posted a similar question in another AV forums site with the same list of speakers I was considering. Here is what he said, which unfortunately it seems, I repeated here.

The ML IW6 you mentioned is $280 apiece at Crutchfield, vs $150 each for the JBL 260W so you're talking double the price. (The 280W is $225 but you get an 8" woofer not the 6.5" woofer of the IW6 and 260W, so you're still getting more speaker for $55 less). Plus both JBLs have full 1" tweeters, while that ML has just a 3/4" tweeter...I tend to equate 3/4" tweeters with really really low-grade entry level stuff, similar to a receiver that has spring clip speaker connections instead of binding posts---just screams "bargain basement extreme cost cutting" in my book.

I love my LCR PSB's and the sound in both music and movies they put out. Some say PSB's are more neutral sounding, which Im ok with. I just would like a set of in-wall rear surrounds that would be a good complement.

That recommendation from @TLS Guy is spot on. That Monolith lineup is a great speaker line and some of the best high end bang for your buck you can ever expect to get.

Also the Monolith line measures very neutral and should blend in well with your PSB's

 

[kini]

Doing some remodeling in my basement media room and my Imagine Mini's on stands must go. Looking to go in-wall surrounds behind the new sectional. I have PSB Imagine's for my LCR and a SVS sub. Would like to at least stay with the same speaker design (titanium/hard dome tweeter & polypropylene woofers) to match the sound of my PSB's. I have a 5.1 setup with a Onkyo RZ820.

Easy choice would be to stick with PSB but their selection is limited. W-LCR are out of my range. Was suggested to go with in-ceiling like CS850 in the wall. That should match. Also found some older CW262 on-line that I think would work.

Given the limited choices from PSB I looked at other brands that have close to the same design. Some that Im looking at:
Martin Logan IW6
Klipsch R-5502- WII
Def Tech DI 5.5BPS

Would any of these match up well with my PSB's? Are there any other brands that I should look at?

Or am I over-thinking this?

Any advice would help at this point.

You should not consider any speaker for surround duty that is not a concentric design.

In Wall

KEF US

us.kef.com

 

[Danzilla31]

@TLS Guy Apologies. Maybe I should have posted this question in the Beginners and Audiophytes section. When I try to spend good money I expect to get good stuff. Especially when Im looking to put holes in my walls I dont want to regret it down the road. I am a little bit above novice when it comes to HT stuff. My background is IT. I like to dabble in it. Thats about the extent of it.

I posted a similar question in another AV forums site with the same list of speakers I was considering. Here is what he said, which unfortunately it seems, I repeated here.

The ML IW6 you mentioned is $280 apiece at Crutchfield, vs $150 each for the JBL 260W so you're talking double the price. (The 280W is $225 but you get an 8" woofer not the 6.5" woofer of the IW6 and 260W, so you're still getting more speaker for $55 less). Plus both JBLs have full 1" tweeters, while that ML has just a 3/4" tweeter...I tend to equate 3/4" tweeters with really really low-grade entry level stuff, similar to a receiver that has spring clip speaker connections instead of binding posts---just screams "bargain basement extreme cost cutting" in my book.

I love my LCR PSB's and the sound in both music and movies they put out. Some say PSB's are more neutral sounding, which Im ok with. I just would like a set of in-wall rear surrounds that would be a good complement.

@shadyJ is so spot on. It's not the composition of a speaker but how it measures it's dispersion characteristics and other factors that make for a great pairing with different brand of speakers you already own

In my old house I had bought 3 JBL Studio 590 and paired them with my SVS prime towers that I originally originally had in that room just bought one more tower for all my surrounds per @shadyJ's advice. That was a phenomenal pairing and sounded fantastic and the 590's were a horn loaded speaker with a compression driver but the Primes are a aluminum dome wide dispersion speaker. But they paired well together for my application

In my new room I paired my RBH SV-831 L C R which have a massive AMT tweeter with their on wall SV-661W surrounds which have a silk dome tweeter

I purposely did that due to AMT's being notorious for having a tight vertical dispersion window and going with their dome version gage me great horizontal and vertical dispersion with them being a bit above ear level for two rows

That pairing sounded wonderful as well.

So don't buy into the idea that all tweeter should be the same or the speakers should be identical or materials have to be identical for all the speakers

Each bed channel has different needs and purpose example surrounds vs the front 3 and you can get fantastic results mixing and matching different brands and types of speakers if that speaker works well for what it's being used for and save yourself some good money in the process.

 

[juryman]

You should not consider any speaker for surround duty that is not a concentric design.

In Wall

KEF US

us.kef.com

Apologies @kini but what is a concentric design? Are KEF's the only ones that are designed that way? I have heard very good things about KEF. When I was initially building my setup, I was looking at them for all my speakers. They are the only ones that I know of that make a low profile ceiling speaker which I was considering for surrounds as well.

 

[juryman]

That recommendation from @TLS Guy is spot on. That Monolith lineup is a great speaker line and some of the best high end bang for your buck you can ever expect to get.

Also the Monolith line measures very neutral and should blend in well with your PSB's

Thank you. I guess Ill have to take a serious look at the Monolith then.

Along those same lines, someone in another discussion Im in mentioned RSL. Their in-walls look pretty sweet and was told they are a great bang for the buck. was also mentioned that they are pretty neutral as well.

Are they in a similar vein as the Monolith?

 

[Danzilla31]

Thank you. I guess Ill have to take a serious look at the Monolith then.

Along those same lines, someone in another discussion Im in mentioned RSL. Their in-walls look pretty sweet and was told they are a great bang for the buck. was also mentioned that they are pretty neutral as well.

Are they in a similar vein as the Monolith?

The RSL are outstanding for the price. They are neutral and they do sound amazing

I used their in ceiling C34e's in my setup in my old home and they were some of the best in ceiling speakers I've ever heard regardless of price.

But as good as they are they wouldn't work in my new room. Not their fault it's just too big of a room and that's where their limit kicks in and the price starts to matter. Money usually gives you more clean output and better bass at high levels of play especially in bigger room setups

Not RSL's fault only so much you can do with the price they have set. But in the right sized room youd struggle to find anything that sounds better then then RSL until you get way more stupid expensive in price. RSL absolutely squeezes excellence out of every dollar you spend that they can.

They are my #1 go to for friends shopping on a budget

Where they will fall behind the Monolith are in output, how loud they can play without distortion, and bass extension.

So what you will have to decide is how big is your room and how loud do you like to play your content in your set up. Also distance to seating position. You'll need to determine if in your room and how far from where your sitting will you benefit from the extra output and extension the Monolith will give you over the RSL

 

[juryman]

The RSL are outstanding for the price. They are neutral and they do sound amazing

I used their in ceiling C34e's in my setup in my old home and they were some of the best in ceiling speakers I've ever heard regardless of price.

But as good as they are they wouldn't work in my new room. Not their fault it's just too big of a room and that's where their limit kicks in and the price starts to matter. Money usually gives you more clean output and better bass at high levels of play especially in bigger room setups

Not RSL's fault only so much you can do with the price they have set. But in the right sized room youd struggle to find anything that sounds better then then RSL until you get way more stupid expensive in price. RSL absolutely squeezes excellence out of every dollar you spend that they can.

They are my #1 go to for friends shopping on a budget

Where they will fall behind the Monolith are in output, how loud they can play without distortion, and bass extension.

So what you will have to decide is how big is your room and how loud do you like to play your content in your set up. Also distance to seating position. You'll need to determine if in your room and how far from where your sitting will you benefit from the extra output and extension the Monolith will give you over the RSL

But given that I need them for surrounds, and they will be right behind my seating area, how loud do they need to get? I dont want them to drown out the main LCR speakers. The room is about 15x14, with one side open to a bar area. So not very big in my book.

 

[lovinthehd]

But given that I need them for surrounds, and they will be right behind my seating area, how loud do they need to get? I dont want them to drown out the main LCR speakers. The room is about 15x14, with one side open to a bar area. So not very big in my book.

These are surrounds or rear surrounds? I'd not worry particularly about how loud they are capable of being, but rather how loud you need them to be, most soundtracks will not have them as loud as LCR typically, tho. Setup correctly they shouldn't drown out the LCR unless that's intended by the soundtrack (can't say I've run into that particularly, closer would be some multich music but even then, not a huge worry.

 

[juryman]

These are surrounds or rear surrounds? I'd not worry particularly about how loud they are capable of being, but rather how loud you need them to be, most soundtracks will not have them as loud as LCR typically, tho. Setup correctly they shouldn't drown out the LCR unless that's intended by the soundtrack (can't say I've run into that particularly, closer would be some multich music but even then, not a huge worry.

Rear surrounds. Given how the 2x4's are spaced, they will probably be 10-11ft apart. This is also why I think angled in-walls like the RSL's or Def Tech bipolar's would be best. It would also place them outside of the front L & R speakers. Not sure if that matters.

 

[lovinthehd]

Rear surrounds. Given how the 2x4's are spaced, they will probably be 10-11ft apart. This is also why I think angled in-walls like the RSL's or Def Tech bipolar's would be best. It would also place them outside of the front L & R speakers. Not sure if that matters.

Wasn't sure, sounded more like these were for a 5.1 setup rather than 7.1. How far back of the seats will these speakers be? Not sure what you mean by outside the front speakers for rear surrounds, or even surrounds.

 

[Eppie]

Wasn't sure, sounded more like these were for a 5.1 setup rather than 7.1. How far back of the seats will these speakers be? Not sure what you mean by outside the front speakers for rear surrounds, or even surrounds.

I think "outside" just means further apart than the fronts.

 

[isolar8001]

Wasn't sure, sounded more like these were for a 5.1 setup rather than 7.1.

That's what I thought too reading most of this thread.
Seems like a lot of fuss for rear surrounds that barely make a peep 98 percent of the time......