Need Advice between Denon and Yamaha

[ednet92]

Hi everyone,
Happy New year to all.
After hours of reading, viewing on youtube on the AV domain, I'm still struggling to decide which "environnement" to lean towards to...

I currently have a 2011 AV receiver (Pioneer VSX 921), 5.1 (Focal chorus 726, sub 700, Q acoustics for central and surround). Still working properly but no longer up to date and surely not on par with my brand new LG C9 4K/oled TV 55.
I realize how dynamic is the area of AV creating so many new sounds type (Atmos, Dolby Vision, etc), products, etc.

One thing I understood from Geene is that the more they cranck new logos (Dolby, etc), the more they have to cut down on power, and other features

so after many research I got convinced to invest more money that expected and go towards either a Denon 3600 or Yamaha Avantage RX 880 or 1080. but I still hesitate very much.

So to help with that I tried to take some decision criteria to my profile.
I really see that Denon seems to have a hit with their 3600, but I'm trying to find the right fit for me (I don't have the greatest hears to be honest but do love great sounds), but I've very tech oriented, home automation addict and I'm really looking for a connected, Alexa, Siri, type of gear that is going to have a very good sound but also, be stable and reliable on Airplay wireless connection (right now with my pioneer I keep on having disconnect all the time and that drives me crazy!).

So to try to anticipate what you get with these two worlds, I downloaded both IOS apps from Denon and Yamaha. feed back is Yamaha is snap, clear, good looking; Whereas looking at Denon instruction manual they start to ask you to get the “Denon 2016 AVR Remote” (yes in 2020 they even kept "2016" in the name of their app - nota good sign as starter). Denon's app (in demo mode though) crashed after few minutes only (when the Yamaha one worked seamlessly). Denon UI was not clean with overlapping writings.
Looking at buyers comments for both receiver on Amazon (very good exercise when you want to get the real feedback vs the fancy Cie website -denon one is beautiful for instance). you see many bad experience for the Denon one (eg : no sound, settings issue, etc ) when nothing of that sort is reported for the Yamaha.
in addition the musicast app seems great, + the wireless surround speaker option ( but I can still go wire, as I have some speakers already...so not a major point).

So in conclusion, I'm under the impression that the Denon might be better from a hardware standpoint, sound quality standpoint and bang for the buck, but might lack the stability, clean up to date software that the Yamaha has invested in.

of course, as a photo enthusiast I'm aware that some times this sort of debate is though as for instance you would never convince a Nikon fan to move to Canon and vice versa lol.
Sorry that was long, but I wonder what to do you guys think or have experience in terms of convienience of use in every day life to operate these 2 great receivers ?

Thanks in advance for your input

 

[Gmoney]

If I was looking into upgrading the Denon 3600 wins out over the a Yamaha a1080. Why? both have very good build quality both are loaded with the latest surround formats. But what the Denon 3600 has over the Yamaha a1080? it’s stable down to 4 Ohms in All channels. I just upgraded to a Yamaha a1080 and love it! but the Denon was on my short list also at the time. For me? it came down to price paid which is why I went with the Yamaha a1080. At the time Amazon was running the Yamaha a1080 for 849.00 new, so it sits in my audio rack today. If that Denon would’ve been on sale New it would’ve won out. If there was one thing I don’t like about my Yamaha a1080 is the AI, that Feature stays off to me it’s just a Gimmick. Oh I should mention that the a1080 is only rated 4 Ohms into L/R front mains only if that matters to you for most it wouldn’t why? cause most would use a Amp for the pre-amp outs. But I do like the build of that Denon 3600 over the Yamaha a1080.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Also check out:

Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

It seems DM, Yamaha, and Anthem are the 3 big AVR heavyweights these days. I think a lot of newbies would love to get some perspective on these three brands. What are their pros and cons? If you have owned all three brands of AVR, your opinions would be greatly appreciated. If you have at...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[Gmoney]

Also check out:

Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

It seems DM, Yamaha, and Anthem are the 3 big AVR heavyweights these days. I think a lot of newbies would love to get some perspective on these three brands. What are their pros and cons? If you have owned all three brands of AVR, your opinions would be greatly appreciated. If you have at...

forums.audioholics.com

Andrew, 39 pages on your thread! Definitely a go to thread on which AVR to choose.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Andrew, 39 pages on your thread! Definitely a go to thread on which AVR to choose.

Yeah hopefully we have enough experienced people giving great insights on the topic.

 

[ednet92]

Hey guys, thanks for these comments, I started to dig in the 40ish pages ! very interesting! Regarding the 4 Ohms question, I've spotted a comment :"
But Gene, thousands of people, and I have connected more than 5 speakers (many people connect 11 speakers, I connect 9 speakers) to this amp in a large room playing loud sound. Many people have connected 7 speakers (that dip down 4 ohms) to the Yamaha A1080 without any kind of issues."
So in "real" life, may be less of an issue.
But it's very interesting that you have the 1080 and still vote for the Denon. I saw also all the debate around Audissey who seems to win.
Also read that the Denon App was indeed not great at all.
agree with you regarding the AI feature, listening to the presentation of this by a Yamaha product reps, I wasn't convinced that it would drives consistent result (like the DSP from what I read...)

Damnit, not an easy choice! best would be to have and test them both but not really feasible around here.
wonder if any happy Denon 3600 owner could comment on the stability of the wireless connection/ airplay, etc.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

One thing to consider is navigating the menu structures. If you can, go to BB or somewhere and play with each brand, and see how you like navigating them. I have a Marantz which is denons sister brand. I like audyssey xt32 vs ypao. I also loathe Yamahas menu structures and their proprietary language, and sound crap. They DO make quality equipment and seems the connectivity is solid though. I use AirPlay with my Marantz as well as the remote app, and the audyssey app. My experience with these has been very good so as usual, ymmv.

 

[ednet92]

Thanks William , will try to find a dealer where I can try them too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey guys, thanks for these comments, I started to dig in the 40ish pages ! very interesting! Regarding the 4 Ohms question, I've spotted a comment :"
But Gene, thousands of people, and I have connected more than 5 speakers (many people connect 11 speakers, I connect 9 speakers) to this amp in a large room playing loud sound. Many people have connected 7 speakers (that dip down 4 ohms) to the Yamaha A1080 without any kind of issues."
So in "real" life, may be less of an issue.
But it's very interesting that you have the 1080 and still vote for the Denon. I saw also all the debate around Audissey who seems to win.
Also read that the Denon App was indeed not great at all.
agree with you regarding the AI feature, listening to the presentation of this by a Yamaha product reps, I wasn't convinced that it would drives consistent result (like the DSP from what I read...)

Damnit, not an easy choice! best would be to have and test them both but not really feasible around here.
wonder if any happy Denon 3600 owner could comment on the stability of the wireless connection/ airplay, etc.

The decision is Never easy because there are so many factors.

As dealers of both Denon/Marantz and Yamaha, we could easily buy any of these brands for ourselves, family, and friends at lower cost. So for dealers, it’s not about the money.

And you’re right about theories and lab results vs real life use - it’s usually not that demanding in real life.

For example - the All Channels Driven Test vs. real life use where we never encounter just a scenario.

And the Pre-out voltage case where in real life most people will probably never need more than even 1.9V.

And the THD case where in real life we won’t hear THD of 0.1%, so why do we care if THD is 0.1% vs 0.0001%?

Same goes for SNR and other specs.

So what do we really care about in the REAL LIFE?

Cost? WiFi dropouts? Apps? Features you actually want? Is one truly more reliable than the other? Is Audyssey truly better than YPAO to your ears?

Would the same people still buy Denon is the cost is the same as Yamaha?

Why even pay $850 (on sale) for a Yamaha RX-A1080 when you can buy a comparable Denon X3500 for $599? Why pay $1200 (not on sale) for the RX-A1080?

 

[Gmoney]

The decision is Never easy because there are so many factors.

As dealers of both Denon/Marantz and Yamaha, we could easily buy any of these brands for ourselves, family, and friends at lower cost. So for dealers, it’s not about the money.

And you’re right about theories and lab results vs real life use - it’s usually not that demanding in real life.

For example - the All Channels Driven Test vs. real life use where we never encounter just a scenario.

And the Pre-out voltage case where in real life most people will probably never need more than even 1.9V.

And the THD case where in real life we won’t hear THD of 0.1%, so why do we care if THD is 0.1% vs 0.0001%?

Same goes for SNR and other specs.

So what do we really care about in the REAL LIFE?

Cost? WiFi dropouts? Apps? Features you actually want? Is one truly more reliable than the other? Is Audyssey truly better than YPAO to your ears?

Would the same people still buy Denon is the cost is the same as Yamaha?

Why even pay $850 (on sale) for a Yamaha RX-A1080 when you can buy a comparable Denon X3500 for $599? Why pay $1200 (not on sale) for the RX-A1080?

I can’t help looking at the back of the Denon 3600H and it looks like my old Onkyo NR818 that crashed! Yeah I like the Denon build in the 3600H. But I went with the Yamaha a1080 why? Reliability!

 

[M Code]

I can’t help looking at the back of the Denon 3600H and it looks like my old Onkyo NR818 that crashed! Yeah I like the Denon build in the 3600H. But I went with the Yamaha a1080 why? Reliability!

I 2nd that...
As an industry insider & CEDIA installer we have access to the major brands and factory sources @ highly discounted prices... But when doing an install, we almost always use Yamaha audio/video products because of their reliability.... And since our primary office is located very close to 1 of the independent audio warranty centers, we know the owner well and frequently discuss the subject for various brands and their respective reliability. I think Yamaha has better brand image and reliability because of:

• Tech support based in the USA
• Yamaha has reasonable stock of replacement parts for later models if needed
• Yamaha has their own design teams
• Yamaha has their own factories
• Yamaha products do have the HDMI/HDCP certifications

In closing...
I agree certain other brands may have impressive pricing, features and/or specs but when running my AV install biz having to go back out and troubleshoot, repair and replace a previously installed component of another brand besides Yamaha is simply too expensive... Note that rarely we have had defective Yamaha products, but since we are located in SoCal we have direct access to Yamaha to find their best expedient solution...

Just my $0.02...

 

[AVUser001]

I 2nd that...
As an industry insider & CEDIA installer we have access to the major brands and factory sources @ highly discounted prices... But when doing an install, we almost always use Yamaha audio/video products because of their reliability.... And since our primary office is located very close to 1 of the independent audio warranty centers, we know the owner well and frequently discuss the subject for various brands and their respective reliability. I think Yamaha has better brand image and reliability because of:

• Tech support based in the USA
• Yamaha has reasonable stock of replacement parts for later models if needed
• Yamaha has their own design teams
• Yamaha has their own factories
• Yamaha products do have the HDMI/HDCP certifications

In closing...
I agree certain other brands may have impressive pricing, features and/or specs but when running my AV install biz having to go back out and troubleshoot, repair and replace a previously installed component of another brand besides Yamaha is simply too expensive... Note that rarely we have had defective Yamaha products, but since we are located in SoCal we have direct access to Yamaha to find their best expedient solution...

Just my $0.02...

I know NAD (esp Integrated Amps, Pre/Pro, AVR) is not part of this thread, but was wondering how does it rank in terms of its reliability , warranty & support , compared to Yamaha and D&M , ignoring cost for a sec?

 

[M Code]

Let me firstly say... I have a lot of admiration of the NAD brand 1 of the original surviving audio brands that try and market as higher quality, sonic sounding audio specialist product. But the NAD of today is very different than previous years, they don't have their own factories so they must outsource their products. Based on having to outsource, they go to different factories depending upon the respective category. The majority of their products are built by a factory in northern China, which I have visited many times. The factory is very capable, but monitoring final product quality within the factory can be a major challenge. As the factory QA team may accept a technical issue that the NAD brand's QA team does not, and typically the factory's team will take the priority. Another thing to keep in mind, is that today the quality/reliability is very dependent on software. Whenever a software bug is found/reported the brand must go back to the design team, replicate the bug, create the SW fix and then validate all of this takes more time due to the staff layers when outsourcing compared to total vertical integrated brand like Yamaha.

In summary, I would rank NAD quality as average, tech support above average. Note that @ our local warranty service center we find very few NAD products, but this due to their smaller sales base. But once again, it very difficult for a brand to compare with Yamaha due to their organization and larger sales base. Note that D&M suffer similar issues as they also outsource the majority of their products, however D&M particularly the Denon brand has a significant sales base so they can afford more resources for QA and tech support.

Just my $0.02...

 

[AVUser001]

In summary, I would rank NAD quality as average, tech support above average. Note that @ our local warranty service center we find very few NAD products, but this due to their smaller sales base. But once again, it very difficult for a brand to compare with Yamaha due to their organization and larger sales base. Note that D&M suffer similar issues as they also outsource the majority of their products, however D&M particularly the Denon brand has a significant sales base so they can afford more resources for QA and tech support.

Just my $0.02...

Thanks for the insight. I've always been a D&M guy, but having recently bitten by D&M repair service, looking at other comparable products too..

 

[ednet92]

Thanks for all these very detailed comments! very useful! I love tech and I'm especially keen on apple new products. Kinda of early adopter. I love to read, watch all detailed reviews. to a point that when I get to a store I generally know much more on the product that most of the sales reps. I really love how tech stuff can facilitate our daily life, when It's convient, nicely design, consistent and reliable. But after many years I realized that despite all the thinking before any choice, nothing replace a real test (when hopefully possible). that's the life proof needed to best match a demanding end user needs. And with that we realize that all the spec vanish behind the exact use we specifically do with it.
My take away as far suggest that I should take into account the price tag, maybe lean towards Yamaha (first initial choice - as I don't plan to upgrade beyond my 8 ohms speakers) if I could find a good deal

I'm really impressed of the knowledge you guys have on this forum. Big thanks

 

[Gmoney]

Thanks for all these very detailed comments! very useful! I love tech and I'm especially keen on apple new products. Kinda of early adopter. I love to read, watch all detailed reviews. to a point that when I get to a store I generally know much more on the product that most of the sales reps. I really love how tech stuff can facilitate our daily life, when It's convient, nicely design, consistent and reliable. But after many years I realized that despite all the thinking before any choice, nothing replace a real test (when hopefully possible). that's the life proof needed to best match a demanding end user needs. And with that we realize that all the spec vanish behind the exact use we specifically do with it.
My take away as far suggest that I should take into account the price tag, maybe lean towards Yamaha (first initial choice - as I don't plan to upgrade beyond my 8 ohms speakers) if I could find a good deal

I'm really impressed of the knowledge you guys have on this forum. Big thanks

Yeah, M Code has many years of Experience in the audio Industry I believe he goes way back. Yamaha isn’t without issues just not as much as say Onkyo. But even Onkyo seems to have gotten past their HDMI issues. Marantz, very solid units a lil on the pricey side. I can even remember Harman had issues with HDMI back around 2011, sad they went out like they did.

 

[AVUser001]

I can even remember Harman had issues with HDMI back around 2011, sad they went out like they did.

You mean Harman Kardon? .. becos Harman is doing really well with acquisition of various brands like Revel, Mark Levinson, JBL, Lexicon ,Arcam etc.. and falls under Samsung electronics.

 

[Gmoney]

You mean Harman Kardon? .. becos Harman is doing really well with acquisition of various brands like Revel, Mark Levinson, JBL, Lexicon ,Arcam etc.. and falls under Samsung electronics.

I was speaking of their AVR’s I had their 3600 back in 2011 very nice unit clean output. But HDMI issues came up. What did I go with after my Harman Kardon crapped out? a Onkyo NR818 which lasted 18 months and bam! HDMI went out got the Dreaded black screen! Yeah Onkyo fixed it even sent me a box shipping label. Got it back all good for a few months than it started acting up again so I sold it off.

 

[M Code]

I was speaking of their AVR’s I had their 3600 back in 2011 very nice unit clean output. But HDMI issues came up. What did I go with after my Harman Kardon crapped out? a Onkyo NR818 which lasted 18 months and bam! HDMI went out got the Dreaded black screen! Yeah Onkyo fixed it even sent me a box shipping label. Got it back all good for a few months than it started acting up again so I sold it off.

In 2009, Harman Kardon terminated their USA based AVR team and shifted total product development to their China office. Prior to that they had been very successful in AVRs, developing many 1st breakthroughs..

• 1st AVR w/Video processing
• 1st AVR with multiple x-over settings instead of global in the the bass manager
• 1st AVR with Logic 7 DSP post-processing
• 1st AVR with Dolby Headphone
• 1st AVR with Dolby Volume
• 1st 7.1 AVR using channels 6/7 for Zone II
• 1st AVR using auto EQ/Level SW
• 1st AVR having bass manager capability for 7.1 direct inputs

Then in 2015, Harman Kardon abandoned the AVR category, but in 2018 reentered it by purchasing Arcam from their Canadian distributor. Primarily for delivering AVRs/processors under the Lexicon brand to support their marketing efforts in 12V OE automotive... And now under Samsung ownership, the Harman Kardon brand is focused more on headphones, blue-tooth speakers and branding on PC products.

Just my $0.02...

 

[Gmoney]

In 2009, Harman Kardon terminated their USA based AVR team and shifted total product development to their China office. Prior to that they had been very successful in AVRs, developing many 1st breakthroughs..

• 1st AVR w/Video processing
• 1st AVR with multiple x-over settings instead of global in the the bass manager
• 1st AVR with Logic 7 DSP post-processing
• 1st AVR with Dolby Headphone
• 1st AVR with Dolby Volume
• 1st 7.1 AVR using channels 6/7 for Zone II
• 1st AVR using auto EQ/Level SW
• 1st AVR having bass manager capability for 7.1 direct inputs

Then in 2015, Harman Kardon abandoned the AVR category, but in 2018 reentered it by purchasing Arcam from their Canadian distributor. Primarily for delivering AVRs/processors under the Lexicon brand to support their marketing efforts in 12V OE automotive... And now under Samsung ownership, the Harman Kardon brand is focused more on headphones, blue-tooth speakers and branding on PC products.

Just my $0.02...

wish i never had sold off my H/K 3490 two channel
That lil monster was sooo clean sounding!