NAD vs Denon, Onkyo etc.

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
More interesting "Tech Lab" figures here. Now that the 805 is no longer available new, the 13 lbs lighter (still weighs 40 lbs) 807 at <$800 may be the next best buy Onkyo before they disappear too. Note how it compares with its rivals including the NAD747 (presumably the reviewer meant those in the same price group) in "untainted" power. You've got to give Onkyo the credit for just keep try and try again. I sure hope they have by now resolved the overheating issues.

http://hcc.techradar.com/files/hcc_content/onk176.pdf
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I guess I just don't get it.....and I mean this to apply generally to the subject... not specifically to the OP. I'm going a little OT here...

Why not just invest in a bullet proof multi-channel amp or multiple amps, with ability to drive complex low impedance loads without batting an eye, and have high power output(much higher than a receiver), and limit the reciever use to pre-pro only?

Adcom has some great amps, new, and used for great prices if you don't mind going that way. The 555(original) can be had for around $250 each, and puts out a solid 237 x 2 into 8 ohms, measured, and can do 3 Ohm nominal loads with ease(I have previously tortured one for years under a 2.8 nominal ohm load at high levels) without issue. Or you can go with bit newer models.

-Chris
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I guess I just don't get it.....and I mean this to apply generally to the subject... not specifically to the OP. I'm going a little OT here...

Why not just invest in a bullet proof multi-channel amp or multiple amps, with ability to drive complex low impedance loads without batting an eye, and have high power output(much higher than a receiver), and limit the reciever use to pre-pro only?

Adcom has some great amps, new, and used for great prices if you don't mind going that way. The 555(original) can be had for around $250 each, and puts out a solid 237 x 2 into 8 ohms, measured, and can do 3 Ohm nominal loads with ease(I have previously tortured one for years under a 2.8 nominal ohm load at high levels) without issue. Or you can go with bit newer models.

-Chris
Chris, if you ask 3 db I am sure he knows exactly the point I was making. That is, simply the point that NAD, HK or whatever AVRs don't give you the so call real power on a $/W basis. Time and again, we see posts of claims and counter claims on this and similar topics. I am trying to collect and post links to data, hopefully credible data so people can see and make their own conclusions. This post is only relevant to AVR only users and I know 3 db may be tired of me making this point.

As to your point about using AVR as prepro only, I agree with you. I also thought it may be good if manufacturers offer AVR models that include only 2, or 4 internal amps that can drive complex loads for the surround channels but include all 7.1 preouts. That would give users whose main interests are the front channels and are more than happy with affordable speakers for the remaining channels, an extra viable option to choose from. Personally I hate to waste 2 to 3 internal amps sitting there taking up room and producing heats when they will never be used. I am pretty sure I am alone on this though.:D
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
More interesting "Tech Lab" figures here. Now that the 805 is no longer available new, the 13 lbs lighter (still weighs 40 lbs) 807 at <$800 may be the next best buy Onkyo before they disappear too. Note how it compares with its rivals including the NAD747 (presumably the reviewer meant those in the same price group) in "untainted" power. You've got to give Onkyo the credit for just keep try and try again. I sure hope they have by now resolved the overheating issues.

http://hcc.techradar.com/files/hcc_content/onk176.pdf
The 2 channel performance is almost the same as the ACD performance, that's not a great balance.

Why not just invest in a bullet proof multi-channel amp or multiple amps, with ability to drive complex low impedance loads without batting an eye, and have high power output(much higher than a receiver), and limit the reciever use to pre-pro only?
Because the average consumer isn't interested in 4 or 5 black boxes dedicated to performing a similar function to one black box. You have to remember this is why there is a substantial market for receivers because people like to have a one box solution. Receivers like the TX-SR805 and others mentioned on this thread tend to offer a bit more in terms of amplification meeting the needs of the power hungry yet space conscious consumer.
 
fightinkraut

fightinkraut

Full Audioholic
Why not just invest in a bullet proof multi-channel amp or multiple amps, with ability to drive complex low impedance loads without batting an eye, and have high power output(much higher than a receiver), and limit the reciever use to pre-pro only?

-Chris
Chris I suspect many people are in the same situation I'm in, meaning I would love a separate amp and pre/pro, and I could certainly make the space, the issue is simply budgetary. I'm all for saving up and buying the best one can afford, but the jump from a $550 refurb TX-SR805 to comparable separates for a 5 channel set up was too great of a difference. I decided to purchase what I could afford, then save up for room treatments, then someday purchase a separate amp.

Maybe I'm in the minority being 22 and married with two kids, but I think a lot of people would go with separates if money allowed.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Only Audioholics desire getting separates.:D

The rest of the world (majority) only wants the AV Receivers.:eek:

I have a friend at work who doesn't even care about going the separates route. He is building a brand new 4,000 sq ft house with a dedicated Home Theater Room that includes a Projector, DefTech speakers:D, and all he ever desires is a Denon AVR - the 5308.

There are 2 things he does not care for.

1) Separate audio components (amps, pre-pro), and
2) Buying used components; it has to be brand new.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Because the average consumer isn't interested in 4 or 5 black boxes dedicated to performing a similar function to one black box. You have to remember this is why there is a substantial market for receivers because people like to have a one box solution. Receivers like the TX-SR805 and others mentioned on this thread tend to offer a bit more in terms of amplification meeting the needs of the power hungry yet space conscious consumer.
Yeah, the majority of the world, especially Damn Rich People:D, don't even know what an Amplifier is - nor do they CARE to.:D

If someone makes a $100K System that has everything built in, they would buy it instead of buying separate components that perform better.:D
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Chris, if you ask 3 db I am sure he knows exactly the point I was making. That is, simply the point that NAD, HK or whatever AVRs don't give you the so call real power on a $/W basis. Time and again, we see posts of claims and counter claims on this and similar topics. I am trying to collect and post links to data, hopefully credible data so people can see and make their own conclusions. This post is only relevant to AVR only users and I know 3 db may be tired of me making this point.

As to your point about using AVR as prepro only, I agree with you. I also thought it may be good if manufacturers offer AVR models that include only 2, or 4 internal amps that can drive complex loads for the surround channels but include all 7.1 preouts. That would give users whose main interests are the front channels and are more than happy with affordable speakers for the remaining channels, an extra viable option to choose from. Personally I hate to waste 2 to 3 internal amps sitting there taking up room and producing heats when they will never be used. I am pretty sure I am alone on this though.:D
PENG. I just want to make several more points.
1. The Onkyo model you refer to is a one of kind model, that is no longer manufactured. Yes it was a a stellar model but I'm not so sure it reperesents what Onky o is producing now. Sure you can pick it up second hand but thats not the point.
2. If you look at what Onkyo, Denon, Yamaha has been offering lately, you will notice trend of more features less robust amp.
3. NAD on the other hand always maintained the less is more approach with less bells and whisltes and more dollars spent on teh amp/power supply section. Yes they cost more, much more but they deliver on their promise.
4. None of those receivers are quarantied to deliver into 4 ohms and if the manufacturer/dealer found out that you were indeed driving a 4 ohm laod, you can kiss your warranty goodbye. Now the warranty period is too short for all of them but it doessn't make the point moot. If you want a receiver iin todays market that is quaranteed 4 ohm stable, NAD is it. Most other manufactures warn against 4 ohms.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
3 db, welcome back! I disagree with your first point. Take a look of the specs of the newest Onkyo line up and you will see their 1007 through 5007 models are indeed powerful as ever, obviously I mean by AVR standard.

Technically speaking I do agree with you on the other points. However, on the practical side even the weaker Onkyo 807 or the Denon AVR-4310 offer more power than the NAD 747. Yes the 747 would be 4 ohm stable but if you crank the volume right up it will activate the current limiting mode too. On the other hand if you voluntarily de-rate the 807 or 4310, say phsically or mentally limit the volume level to below -10 (just an example) so that for typical CD, DVD inputs it is limited to below 90W, they will also be stable. In fact I think the 4310 can drive 4 ohm speakers if you limit the maximum power to 90W. I know Denon do not specs them for 4 ohm load but in their FAQ they do tell people to go ahead and do it. People just have to use common sense that AVRs are not power amps.

Again, overall I agree with the points you made except for the first one, but practially speaking, for the same dollars, say 1,500, Denon or NAD will practically get you roughly the same power, 4 ohms or not.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
PENG, how about "real world" transient peaks, perhaps reliant on the size of the caps? I've never measured anything, electronically, with my equipment, but I do sometimes enjoy watching my voltmeter on the power center take a big dive after I turn on the Onkyo, and then the NAD. However, the NAD dives deeper . . . I'll try to pay attn again next time I fire them up . . .
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
3 db, welcome back! I disagree with your first point. Take a look of the specs of the newest Onkyo line up and you will see their 1007 through 5007 models are indeed powerful as ever, obviously I mean by AVR standard.

Technically speaking I do agree with you on the other points. However, on the practical side even the weaker Onkyo 807 or the Denon AVR-4310 offer more power than the NAD 747. Yes the 747 would be 4 ohm stable but if you crank the volume right up it will activate the current limiting mode too. On the other hand if you voluntarily de-rate the 807 or 4310, say phsically or mentally limit the volume level to below -10 (just an example) so that for typical CD, DVD inputs it is limited to below 90W, they will also be stable. In fact I think the 4310 can drive 4 ohm speakers if you limit the maximum power to 90W. I know Denon do not specs them for 4 ohm load but in their FAQ they do tell people to go ahead and do it. People just have to use common sense that AVRs are not power amps.

Again, overall I agree with the points you made except for the first one, but practially speaking, for the same dollars, say 1,500, Denon or NAD will practically get you roughly the same power, 4 ohms or not.
Thanks PENG. :) Its always a pleasure discussing NAD with you and I mean that sincerely.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
PENG, how about "real world" transient peaks, perhaps reliant on the size of the caps? I've never measured anything, electronically, with my equipment, but I do sometimes enjoy watching my voltmeter on the power center take a big dive after I turn on the Onkyo, and then the NAD. However, the NAD dives deeper . . . I'll try to pay attn again next time I fire them up . . .
If you are talking about transient current that happens when you turn on your AVR or amp, then the one with a larger power supply transformer would likely cause the voltmeter to dive lower. However, how high the transient could reach depends on:

1. Timing - Worst case when the incoming supply voltage is at zero when you switch the AVR/or amp on.
2. Ramnent magnetism in the transformer core - worst case when its polarity happens to be encouraging more current draws during switching.

So each time you turn the equipment on the transient current could range from almost next to nothing to many times full load current. Try it 10 times and you will the voltage do not dip the same amount each time.

If you are referring to transient peak demands from the source material, then yes large caps should help but it is best to have large p/s transformer to draw from as well to keep the caps replenished quickly.
 
A

andrewhr

Audiophyte
NAD T785 Warning...

I bought a NAD T785 in good faith that I was getting a top quality piece of equipment from a reputable company.

The digital audio stopped working after 8 months of light use

I was told by my local dealer that the part I need, the DSP PCB (50-918-0775-90) will cost $800 because Lenbrook (they either own or distribute NAD) informed them they will not cover it under warranty!!!!!

I am disgusted with NAD... I pay thousands of dollars for a high end AV receiver that breaks after less than a year and they won't stand by their product.

As a 32 year old well-off consumer that is as loyal as a blood hound when treated right, I will NEVER buy another piece of equipment from any NAD related company again... Take this as a warning as I urge whoever is considering purchasing NAD, to purchase a different brand.

The $1k it will cost me to fix the T785 (parts and labor), doesn't concern me very much... It's the fact that a supposed high-end company won't stand by its product. I'm a VERY principled person and they've done well to create an advocate for their competition.

I will repeat... I am absolutely disgusted by NAD and feel defrauded by the brand. At the end of the day... They will lose tens of thousands of dollars more in lost business than it would have cost them to replace the $800 part, broken on a less than one year old piece of equipment.

Message me if you'd like any more specific details on this nightmare!
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I wouldn't think such an occurance would be common where they wouldn't honor the warranty. Was this receiver a refurb or anything?
 
A

andrewhr

Audiophyte
Brand new in the box... Proper serial number all that... I live in Canada and purchased it while I was in the US... They won't honor the warranty cause I crossed the border.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Brand new in the box... Proper serial number all that... I live in Canada and purchased it while I was in the US... They won't honor the warranty cause I crossed the border.
Well in that case NAD is not the only one that has such policy. HK is the same, you can buy them from US for much less but HK in Canada will not honor the warranty. I suspect this is the same for Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer etc. Can you not ship it back to HK in the US, surely they would fix it on warranty? The T785 is heavy so it will cost you a fortune in shipping but should still be much less than C$800.
 
A

andrewhr

Audiophyte
You're right that it would cost a fortune to send down there for warranty repair... Not only that, I'd be risking damage in shipment... I even suggested that they ship the part to the US dealer, then that dealer send it up to the Canadian dealer and I'd pay the labor costs (cheaper for me than shipping costs anyway... and safer)... NO GO!!

We're not talking about some massive company that is handcuffed by bureaucracy, it's just a company that doesn't respect its customers or support their own product. At the end of the day, I shouldn't be having to jump through hoops and find creative alternatives for them to fix their broken product. Heck, even with GM skirting the lines of bankruptcy, if my Cadillac needs servicing when I'm in the US... I go to any dealer and they take care of it!
 
A

analogsonar

Audiophyte
Denon, Nad and onkyo are all a matter of taste and it is fully neccessary for anyone interested in a receiver to go and listen with your speakers and see if you like. All three of them sound different.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top