Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I opened a ticket with Audyssey support, but I doubt I would get a detailed answer as I have seen them providing a very brief response and advise people to conduct D+M for the App support. I did not mention a bug, to avoid getting anyone defensive, but just ask why the big difference in the distance settings.

Good call. I don't know if you remember when I first started experimenting with the app and was having some issues with inconsistencies between using just the AVR and the app. I haven't mentioned my issues here because they were different inconsistencies not related to distance. I tried talking with Chris K, got a little frustrated and he stopped replying... lol.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
If the subs are ported, it is usually better to run them without the ports plugged. The important thing is then, before you run Audyssey, you should make sure the sub(s) ports are NOT plugged.

If you plugged them, ran Audyssey, and then unplugged them then whatever EQ Audyssey applied will not longer be valid/optimum.

If you subs have any EQ settings, I would suggest you don't use them, just let Audyssey does its thing.

As far as the distance difference between using the App and the AVR, if you don't move the mic for either case, you may get some slight difference, but the difference between 11.8 ft and 5.2 ft is just too much. Typically, Audyssey's measured distance (by delay) will be longer than the physical distance.

How far are the rear subs from the back walls and the front walls? Audyssey measures delay, not physical distance, but again I can see a ft or two difference between using the App and the AVR, so what you are getting is really puzzling.

Can you post a picture of how you set up the mic?
Sorry I just saw your question. My mic sits on a camera tripod. I put the tripod with mic in the middle of each of my back row seats starting with the middle seat I always sit in.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Sorry I just saw your question. My mic sits on a camera tripod. I put the tripod with mic in the middle of each of my back row seats starting with the middle seat I always sit in.
Are you running only 3 mic positions?
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
IMO level matching is more accurate as it based on the locations where the subs actually are. In a perfect room, gain matching can make sense, but that’s gonna be something like a closed room of intentionally selected dimensions. In rooms like most of us have, when subs are often next to different room boundaries, like a cubby on one side and open to the kitchen on the other, gain matching makes no sense to me.

I still can’t offer anything about the inconsistent behavior of the calibrations. Peng seemed to agree that the “consistently inconsistent” nature would be ok as long as you chose one method. I would try and make sure phasing is good for all subs before running audyssey. For example my front two subs are treated by Audyssey as one, but they’re run off a splitter. Due to being symmetrical at the front of the room, they’re actually not. Above each one, the ceiling height is about 3’ different as the ceiling rises from left to right, and the right front sub is almost half way across the expanse of the shared LR and kitchen front wall. The LR is also sunken by a foot, and my third sub at the back left spot is in a part that’s not sunken, and only has 8.5’ above it. Anyway, the right front has to be set at 180°. I verified that by turning on ONLY the front left sub and set db to 70, running the test tone. Then I turned on the right front sub only, set db to 70 then added left sub and adjusted right sub phase until I got the most output. I also verified that was correct by running a tone at my XO point and the result was the same.
Then I leave the front two on, and add the third and do the same test. This leaves me close enough to run audyssey, and finally tweak with my minidsp.
I have a couple other ways I’m considering setting up my subs, but not until winter and I have time...
Turns out my rear sub phase needs to be at 180. I have not run Audyssey yet just set the subs like you explained. Should I run Audyssey with the rear sub at 180 phase or run it at 0? I also switched to where front subs are on sub2 out and rear is 1. I’ll let you guys know but need to know about the rear with the phase and Audyssey
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Probably flipped at 180 if that's where the output is best. I haven't had to f with those adjustments in my rig. Perhaps another friend here an confirm? Otherwise, do both and see how the app reads it. ;) save each run and delete the bunk runs when all is done. :D
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
Probably flipped at 180 if that's where the output is best. I haven't had to f with those adjustments in my rig. Perhaps another friend here an confirm? Otherwise, do both and see how the app reads it. ;) save each run and delete the bunk runs when all is done. :D
Ok I’ll be back on after I do it, just got back down here
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
Ok so I ran with app and without it. Switching the sub cables in back of avr did fix the distance issue with app, was same distance with app and without.
Now, I set each sub to 70db with my spl meter in my seat before running and with app it set my rear sub to +7.5 and my fronts to +2.5 and without app rear is set at -0.5 and fronts are -0.5. My subs are not loud enough, no way I’m running them the way they were set with app and without app.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I checked what all three subs are running without app they’re 77-79db so averaging 78db, which is fine but I have no room to adjust with them being set at -0.5. I would be going into the positive numbers if I wanted anymore bass. They should be set between -6 to -10 so I have room to go up. Dk if I should just set all the speakers manually with spl meter
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
Pretty sure I’ve got this figured out now. The biggest thing was switching phase on rear sub which I had to do before when I had my 860, idk why I wasn’t thinking that before.
So I know this is not right but I got into the speaker levels after Audyssey and I put the subs at 0.0db and played the test tones. All three each were still reading 70db, actually the front two were and together those were at 75-76db and I had set rear to 75db with spl meter. I turned the gain knobs on front subs each to read 74-76db, together those read about 80db. I then set rear sub to 80db. When all three were playing they were at 83db, they’re turned down to -8.5.
All my impact and extension is back. I’ll run Audyssey again in the morning and see what the level matching screen will say when setting dB levels for the subs since I used my spl meter. I’ll run things through the app again too. It sounds ten times better than it did. I’ll keep you guys informed after tomorrow morning
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Pretty sure I’ve got this figured out now. The biggest thing was switching phase on rear sub which I had to do before when I had my 860, idk why I wasn’t thinking that before.
So I know this is not right but I got into the speaker levels after Audyssey and I put the subs at 0.0db and played the test tones. All three each were still reading 70db, actually the front two were and together those were at 75-76db and I had set rear to 75db with spl meter. I turned the gain knobs on front subs each to read 74-76db, together those read about 80db. I then set rear sub to 80db. When all three were playing they were at 83db, they’re turned down to -8.5.
All my impact and extension is back. I’ll run Audyssey again in the morning and see what the level matching screen will say when setting dB levels for the subs since I used my spl meter. I’ll run things through the app again too. It sounds ten times better than it did. I’ll keep you guys informed after tomorrow morning
I'm glad you are starting to make sense of things. :) If you've got it working, I would recommend doing everything through the app. You will have much better control with that than the AVR.

I agree, you want your Subs to read between -7 and -10 if possible. Positive numbers mean digital boost is being employed, and that leads to distortion.

In my book, as long as each of your front subs are set within say 1.5dB (arbitrary, but closer would be better. :p ) of each other, then the summation of the two should be good.

Look forward to your report once you get another chance to play. :D
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
Pretty sure I’ve got this figured out now. The biggest thing was switching phase on rear sub which I had to do before when I had my 860, idk why I wasn’t thinking that before.
So I know this is not right but I got into the speaker levels after Audyssey and I put the subs at 0.0db and played the test tones. All three each were still reading 70db, actually the front two were and together those were at 75-76db and I had set rear to 75db with spl meter. I turned the gain knobs on front subs each to read 74-76db, together those read about 80db. I then set rear sub to 80db. When all three were playing they were at 83db, they’re turned down to -8.5.
All my impact and extension is back. I’ll run Audyssey again in the morning and see what the level matching screen will say when setting dB levels for the subs since I used my spl meter. I’ll run things through the app again too. It sounds ten times better than it did. I’ll keep you guys informed after tomorrow morning
Nice work. I remember you saying you could “hear” the rear sub. I would not set it to 80 alone. You want it to be lower, so the combination is at 80. But still, sounds like your getting it!!!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Spartan
Nice work. I remember you saying you could “hear” the rear sub. I would not set it to 80 alone. You want it to be lower, so the combination is at 80. But still, sounds like your getting it!!!
Methinkst he is a basshead of the incurable sorts. :p
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I'm glad you are starting to make sense of things. :) If you've got it working, I would recommend doing everything through the app. You will have much better control with that than the AVR.

I agree, you want your Subs to read between -7 and -10 if possible. Positive numbers mean digital boost is being employed, and that leads to distortion.

In my book, as long as each of your front subs are set within say 1.5dB (arbitrary, but closer would be better. :p ) of each other, then the summation of the two should be good.

Look forward to your report once you get another chance to play. :D
I want to use the app but I don’t want huge differences in volume on my subs between the app and without app. Look how big of a difference there was between app and no app that I posted, that’s crazy to me and don’t understand. I’m definitely going to try it again tomorrow though
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
Nice work. I remember you saying you could “hear” the rear sub. I would not set it to 80 alone. You want it to be lower, so the combination is at 80. But still, sounds like your getting it!!!
I set it to 80 alone because that’s what the front two together were reading, that wrong? I’m sure you’re right. Maybe setting front two to 72-73db and rear to 77-78db and all three should be playing together at 80-81db. I want my sub trims definitely in the negative after Audyssey, specifically -6 to -10. Biggest thing bill was the phase I think, wasn’t really thinking about that when all this started for some reason
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
When running Audyssey with app when it checks your sub volume, I wish it would show what dB level they are at, I have no idea, it just wants the little icon to be steady in the green. Also I thought using the spl meter was more accurate than the level matching screen in Audyssey, the numbers jump around a lot more on level matching screen than the spl meter.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When running Audyssey with app when it checks your sub volume, I wish it would show what dB level they are at, I have no idea, it just wants the little icon to be steady in the green. Also I thought using the spl meter was more accurate than the level matching screen in Audyssey, the numbers jump around a lot more on level matching screen than the spl meter.
I missed tons of post in less than 24 hours, but let me try and recap with one question and one suggestion.

Have you now connected the front subs together using the Y and the rear subs on another Y? That is the "right" way as I suggested before, confirmed (sort of) by Audyssey. I can post their response as you are interested so you can see their exact wording.

You previously had the front left and rear left connected together and I believe that might have confused Audyssey enough that it couldn't do a good job dealing with such configuration.

Note: If you have done 1), then I highly doubt you need to flip the phase of the rear 180 degrees because Audyssey could easily do that with the filters, but it's done now so leave it alone as it might help anyway in direct mode without Audyssey running.

2) For the level settings, you got it right about aiming for -7 to -10 though it is not a must unless you are one of those bass heads. If you can't get Audyssey to do get you in that range, then you should try increasing subwoofer levels, just ignore the red zone, as long as it doesn't go so red that it went 100% to the right.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I missed tons of post in less than 24 hours, but let me try and recap with one question and one suggestion.

Have you now connected the front subs together using the Y and the rear subs on another Y? That is the "right" way as I suggested before, confirmed (sort of) by Audyssey. I can post their response as you are interested so you can see their exact wording.

You previously had the front left and rear left connected together and I believe that might have confused Audyssey enough that it couldn't do a good job dealing with such configuration.

Note: If you have done 1), then I highly doubt you need to flip the phase of the rear 180 degrees because Audyssey could easily do that with the filters, but it's done now so leave it alone as it might help anyway in direct mode without Audyssey running.

2) For the level settings, you got it right about aiming for -7 to -10 though it is not a must unless you are one of those bass heads. If you can't get Audyssey to do get you in that range, then you should try increasing subwoofer levels, just ignore the red zone, as long as it doesn't go so red that it went 100% to the right.
Hey man I just got home from cutting wood. The pics you saw were of my old subs, I don’t have those anymore. I have three vtf3s and the rear is placed in the middle behind my second row of seats but my front two are connected by a y splitter. On my old ones that is how I had them connected, fronts on a y and the tears on a y.
I ran audyssey without app again this morning before I left but I’m about to go back down there and try a couple things. I’ll be back on after I do that and let you know what I got this morning and with the other runs I’m going to make. And I had to flip my phase on rear one before I got the 4500 too, when it’s not the bass sounds weak and no extension. Everything came back last night when I flipped it
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I set it to 80 alone because that’s what the front two together were reading, that wrong? I’m sure you’re right. Maybe setting front two to 72-73db and rear to 77-78db and all three should be playing together at 80-81db. I want my sub trims definitely in the negative after Audyssey, specifically -6 to -10. Biggest thing bill was the phase I think, wasn’t really thinking about that when all this started for some reason
I agree you want them in the negative-6 range. The reason you don’t want the back sub at the same level as the fronts is because the back sub will be louder, as will the overall combined response. If you DO want to try that, I would use the on board XO and cross it lower. Like 50-60. That might help localization, but I’d still prefer to set it at the same individual level as each front. Ymmv. Also, phase is a big deal, especially when subs are in odd places.
 
R

Reckel

Senior Audioholic
I agree you want them in the negative-6 range. The reason you don’t want the back sub at the same level as the fronts is because the back sub will be louder, as will the overall combined response. If you DO want to try that, I would use the on board XO and cross it lower. Like 50-60. That might help localization, but I’d still prefer to set it at the same individual level as each front. Ymmv. Also, phase is a big deal, especially when subs are in odd places.
Man dude I set them last night to how you explained but the app set the rear at +7.5 and the fronts at +2.5, I can’t run them like that. I had them all at 70db. What are your thoughts on that?
 

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