More Yamaha 801 questions...

[PENG]

I looked at Cambridge Audio and NAD (and many others!) as I was shopping around before I settled on the Yamaha. If I had had the budget, I would have gone for the Parasound HINT; a couple grand more and it would have been the Anthem STR...

STR is too much, the Anthem 225 seems like a good deal, imo better than the A-S801 from purity stand point, for a few dollars more.

 

[Mid-Fi]

I looked up that Parasound Hint 6. What's the price on that?
I checked their website and followed links to their listed dealers. Those don't even list products let alone prices.
They just say "contact us for a consultation."

Yeah, just found the price. Oooff!

 

[John Parks]

STR is too much, the Anthem 225 seems like a good deal, imo better than the A-S801 from purity stand point, for a few dollars more.

Ah, yes, but we are talking about modern integrated amps with built-in DACs, which the (discontinued) 225 does not have. The STR has that capability and ARC.

 

[John Parks]

Yeah, just found the price. Oooff!

Agreed! It is an excellent piece of workmanship and is, unfortunately, out of my budgetary reach (at this juncture). Of course, it is cheap compared to the Anthem STR at $4500.

 

[PENG]

Ah, yes, but we are talking about modern integrated amps with built-in DACs, which the (discontinued) 225 does not have. The STR has that capability and ARC.

Are you not open to a low cost external portable Dac? I have a few, am very impressed.

 

[everettT]

For cheap this one is nice
https://www.amazon.com/Schiit-Modi-3-D-Converter/dp/B07KWHWV1M/ref=mp_s_a_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1550157468&sr=8-15&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=audio+dac&dpPl=1&dpID=31YBfKudw3L&ref=plSrch

 

[John Parks]

Are you not open to a low cost external portable Dac? I have a few, am very impressed.

Oh, yes - I most certainly am! I was just trying to keep within the bounds of the conversation.

When I put together my latest system - computer, universal player, turntable, amp, speaker, sub - simplicity was my goal. I've had many multi-component solutions in the past. Now that I have a handle on what the Yammy can and cannot do (it is quite transparent, by the way, and communicates upstream changes [which I won't go into on this site] quite nicely) I am keen to explore "upgrades" such as something better than my Oppo BD-103 and/or the DAC built in to the A-S801. I've got my eye on a few at the moment...

 

[KenM10759]

I looked up that Parasound Hint 6. What's the price on that?
I checked their website and followed links to their listed dealers. Those don't even list products let alone prices.
They just say "contact us for a consultation."

It's about $3000 at full list, can be had for about $2500 from a good dealer.

 

[John Parks]

It's about $3000 at full list, can be had for about $2500 from a good dealer.

[/QUOTE]

https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PAHAHINT6

I guess the price on the new model has gone up. Of course, it is "New and Improved!" with some interior upgrades and a new digital display. Very nice

 

[John Parks]

Are you not open to a low cost external portable Dac? I have a few, am very impressed.

What DACs are you rocking these days? I am now familiar with the ESS ES9010K2M found in the Yammy (I did not realize the 'M' stood for mobile, as in developed for mobile phones or DAPs - not that that should make a difference...) the ES9018K2M in my Pioneer XDP-100R (this one makes sense to have an 'M' chip) and the Cirrus Logic CS4382A in my Oppo '103. I've ben doing a lot of reading on Chord's take on things (Mojo or Qutest) and R2R DACs (BorderPatrol). iFi has some interesting products, like the xDSD DAC with its Burr-Brown DSD1793 chip. So many flavors!

 

[PENG]

What DACs are you rocking these days? I am now familiar with the ESS ES9010K2M found in the Yammy (I did not realize the 'M' stood for mobile, as in developed for mobile phones or DAPs - not that that should make a difference...) the ES9018K2M in my Pioneer XDP-100R (this one makes sense to have an 'M' chip) and the Cirrus Logic CS4382A in my Oppo '103. I've ben doing a lot of reading on Chord's take on things (Mojo or Qutest) and R2R DACs (BorderPatrol). iFi has some interesting products, like the xDSD DAC with its Burr-Brown DSD1793 chip. So many flavors!

I have the HA-1, Sonica, Mojo, Xduoo XD-05, Xduoo TA-01, Fioo X5, CA DACMagic XS, Encore mDSD, aside from that, the BDP-105 can also work as an USD DAC. I gave my DACMagic XS and Encore mDSD away as I couldn't find any reasons/time to use those. They are/were all great values except for the Mojo. The Mojo and HA-1 are class A, but no audible advantage according to my ears and graphs. They are just fun to use, and I really like their portability and flexibility. DACs are very cost effective nowadays. In my opinion/experience there is no need to spend any more than a few hundred dollars, or even $200. I also think it does not make much sense to have one onboard an integrated amp, let the amp just amplify!!

 

[lovinthehd]

I have the HA-1, Sonica, Mojo, Xduoo XD-05, Xduoo TA-01, Fioo X5, CA DACMagic XS, Encore mDSD, aside from that, the BDP-105 can also work as an USD DAC. I gave my DACMagic XS and Encore mDSD away as I couldn't find any reasons/time to use those. They are/were all great values except for the Mojo. The Mojo and HA-1 are class A, but no audible advantage according to my ears and graphs. They are just fun to use, and I really like their portability and flexibility. DACs are very cost effective nowadays. In my opinion/experience there is no need to spend any more than a few hundred dollars, or even $200. I also think it does not make much sense to have one onboard an integrated amp, let the amp just amplify!!

Sounds like an argument for separates, let alone wimpy integrated amps Why is $200 a reasonable pricepoint for a DAC (with various features)?

 

[noway]

...The A-S801 has a decent DAC chip, the ES9010K2M but that's for the USB DAC, not for the optical/coax input signals.

I contacted Yamaha today to verify this and their reply quoted below was:

Please note that the A-S801 uses one single ESS ES9010K2M DAC which converts Coax/Optical and USB DAC inputs.

 

[PENG]

I contacted Yamaha today to verify this and their reply quoted below was:

Please note that the A-S801 uses one single ESS ES9010K2M DAC which converts Coax/Optical and USB DAC inputs.

Good to know, but please note that quite often manufacturer's first line customer support reps may not have the most accurate information so I am not sure in this case they are 100% accurate. One only have to read through some of the Denon/Marantz responses to ASR members enquiry on the recent DAC chip change after the AKM factory fire to know the issue.

That being said, I was quite aware of the very likely scenario that the ES9010K2M might have been used for the Coax/Optical inputs as well. It is not 100% imo (may be 90) because of the conflicting information on the service manual. Regardless, I should have mentioned it in my post that it was just a possibility. That post is too old for me to edit now, unfortunately.

Block Diagram - Yamaha A-S801 Service Manual [Page 36] | ManualsLib

If you look at page 35 and page 36 (block diagram) you will see the reference to the PCM5101, and the block diagram shows the coax/optical input signal are routed to the PCM5101. So that's what made me hesitate to assume the ESS chip was used for everything.

The ES9010K2M is not even as good as the ES9026Pro used in Yamaha's AVRs such as the RX-A6A and A8A though that's just based on specs but it is much better than the PCM5101 so I do hope that the Yamaha rep is correct.

 

[noway]

More info on the A-S801. In addition to e-mailing Yamaha Canada (see their response Post #33, I also e-mailed Yamaha USA and here's their response:

The A-S801 uses two different DACs. The ESS Sabre DAC (ES9010K) is used for the USB input. A Texas Instruments Burr-Brown DAC (PCM9211) is used for the optical and coaxial inputs.

Not sure about that response either because the PCM9211 isn't even a DAC. I ordered a Supra USB cable (currently using Coax) so it'll be interesting to compare my current Coax with USB when it arrives.

 

[PENG]

More info on the A-S801. In addition to e-mailing Yamaha Canada (see their response Post #33, I also e-mailed Yamaha USA and here's their response:

The A-S801 uses two different DACs. The ESS Sabre DAC (ES9010K) is used for the USB input. A Texas Instruments Burr-Brown DAC (PCM9211) is used for the optical and coaxial inputs.

Not sure about that response either because the PCM9211 isn't even a DAC. I ordered a Supra USB cable (currently using Coax) so it'll be interesting to compare my current Coax with USB when it arrives.

First line customer support people are not very technically oriented. If you frequent ASR, you will see a good example of this where different Denon/Marantz support team members responded different to the question on which DAC chip they are using in the D+M AVRs last spring, after the AKM factory fire.

That's why I can only say I am not 100% sure (because the block diagram in the SM does show coax/optical inputs are routed to the PCM 5101 via the PCM9211) that the ESS chip is doing it all in the A-S801. If you are bothered by the PCM5101 in case that's the one used for coax/optical then you can easily grab a cheap external DAC that will have much better specs than even the ES9010K2M. In terms of audible difference, I think you have to have those golden ears to hear/detect it.

 

[1981rt]

PENG is handing out wrong info here. I’ve chatted to Yamaha Technical who have confirmed the ESS Sabre Dac within the AS 801 looks after ALL of the digital section…


Dear Mr Thompson,
Thanks for your patience.

For your reference, your case number is 00396489.

With regards to your question, engineers and designers have let us know that on our A-S801, the digital signal path on the circuit diagram,
Optical/Coax and USB-DAC inputs both go to ESS Sabre DAC.

Hope this helps and if you have any further questions or queries, please do not hesitate to ask.

Many thanks

Yamaha Technical A/V

 

[PENG]

PENG is handing out wrong info here. I’ve chatted to Yamaha Technical who have confirmed the ESS Sabre Dac within the AS 801 looks after ALL of the digital section…


Dear Mr Thompson,
Thanks for your patience.

For your reference, your case number is 00396489.

With regards to your question, engineers and designers have let us know that on our A-S801, the digital signal path on the circuit diagram,
Optical/Coax and USB-DAC inputs both go to ESS Sabre DAC.

Hope this helps and if you have any further questions or queries, please do not hesitate to ask.

Many thanks

Yamaha Technical A/V

Please re-read the posts and you will know that I did not "handing out wrong info here" at all, though in my first response I did say it use the PCM DAC chip, based on what's in the service manual, but I did clarify it in subsequent posts that it was just a possibility and provided supporting information of either scenarios.

See also post#35, a different poster also emailed Yamaha USA and was told that the Optical/Coax input did not use the ESS DAC chip, so are you going to say he handed out wrong info too? I wouldn't and did not, as he simply quoted two responses, one from Yamaha Canada and another Yamaha USA and got different responses. That showed, like me, he wasn't so sure about which is the correct one.

If you only read the 3 posts immediately before your own, you would have known people were just wondering, no one seemed 100% sure! Personally, I felt it is more likely the same ESS chip is used for all digital inputs and the block diagram below might have applied so some prototype, or there might have been different versions of the A-S801, that's of course just speculation, not verified facts.

The service manual happens to be in the public domain, so maybe you can do us a favor and ask your source ("engineers and designers.." that your Yamaha rep mentioned) and then hopefully (but I guess unlikely) they would update/clarify that part of the service manual if deemed necessary.

If you are interested in reading the whole manual, it is linked in post#34 through post#36, and let me emphasized again as I did in post#34:

That being said, I was quite aware of the very likely scenario that the ES9010K2M might have been used for the Coax/Optical inputs as well. It is not 100% imo (may be 90) because of the conflicting information on the service manual.

So personally, I think there is a higher probability that the following diagram in the service manual may not be accurate, or there are different versions of the A-S801, I am still not 100% sure. Can't believe after 5 years, we are still talking about this!!

 

[1981rt]

No worries. Still clear as mud, are they trying to fob me off potentially? PENG darling, You need to be in touch with Yamaha as well to clear this all up for us once and for all

 

[PENG]

No worries. Still clear as mud, are they trying to fob me off potentially? PENG darling, You need to be in touch with Yamaha as well to clear this all up for us once and for all

It is likely an error in the SM, may be that page got mixed up with the A-S701 or some AVR that have some shared design and parts used, and those do use the TI PCM5101 or 5102 chip as well. There just don't seem to be any good reasons for the A-S801 to use a different dac for the optical/coax inputs.

For amps that have two zones and allows the user to use different sources for each zone then it might need to use a different dac for zone 2. That's what Denon, Marantz and Yamaha AVRs and AVPs do, but again, not for such entry level integrated amps. So, while I agree it is still clear as mud, but I think it is as least clear mud, that it is some sort of printer error. Keep in mind that Yamaha's integrated amp do share several of the ICs including volume controls, and circuitry with their AVR/AVP cousins, sort of standardization/or synergy, to minimize costs.