Monster Cable Sues Blue Jeans Cable

TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Nope. No crossed cables at all.

Some of you need to take a little time and actually read what's been written and do a little research.

se
Steve Eddy is right. Those Tartan cables are made by Copartner who have 12 manufacturing facilities in Asia.

That's bad. We need to put a stop to Asian junk. If we don't put American's back to work and start making things for ourselves again, we will quickly be the Third World!
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
..... We need to put a stop to Asian junk. If we don't put American's back to work and start making things for ourselves again, we will quickly be the Third World!
I was a Union Ironworker in the 80's. We were big on the buy American bandwagon but no one listened and I stopped trying to convert people. I am label conscious in all my consumer affairs......from food to clothes. I used to say buy American but I gave up. I still won't drive a foreign car......
 
obscbyclouds

obscbyclouds

Senior Audioholic
Steve Eddy is right. Those Tartan cables are made by Copartner who have 12 manufacturing facilities in Asia.

That's bad. We need to put a stop to Asian junk. If we don't put American's back to work and start making things for ourselves again, we will quickly be the Third World!
I really don't want to turn this into a political discussion...but:


1) I wonder where Monster cables are manufactured? You may want to check some of the sites that sell them to find out. Here's a Monster HDMI 1000hd Cable for $300 that's made in China:

http://www.qvc.com/qic/qvcapp.aspx/view.2/app.detail/params.item.E183524.cc.000.cm_scid.crt


I bet many of them are made in that part of the world. It's not just cheapie stuff that's made over there; the price of doing business there is so much less, company's would be silly to manufacture everything here.

2) If you want someone to blame, look at the government. It's regulations are directly responsible for industry jumping ship to other countries. I'll grant you that we are responsible for the government actions, but many of us are going to look for better deals when we can find them, so that we can afford other goods/services.

3) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if we did indeed manufacter everything here, we wouldn't be able to afford lots of the luxuries that we can now, at least, I know I wouldn't be able to. Not to mention that other countries are going to be less than willing to do business with us, since we don't give them market exposure.

As far as this lawsuit goes, I'm 100% behind BJC here, they offer a great product at a reasonable price, which is (should be) the goal of any reputable company. Monster on the other hand, relies on the uniformed consumer to always assume more money = better product. It's simply not the case in this instance.

So with that being said, go BJC! I'm putting the Digg link in my sig, we should all do the same.
 
Last edited:
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Nope. No crossed cables at all.

Some of you need to take a little time and actually read what's been written and do a little research.

se
Steve, I stand corrected, thank you for enlightening me. :) Dr. T (TLS) is right, we need to start bringing production back here, put some of the unemployed back to work, we need to start taking care of our own. There's plenty of Asian junk to go around.
 
Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
1) I wonder where Monster cables are manufactured?
Why China of course. Your point?

It's not just cheapie stuff that's made over there; the price of doing business there is so much less, company's would be silly to manufacture everything here.
The price is less, but what about the costs?


2) If you want someone to blame, look at the government.
Nah. Need to look in the mirror.

I'll grant you that we are responsible for the government actions...
And even more responsible for our own.

...but many of us are going to look for better deals when we can find them, so that we can afford other goods/services.
Yes. That's because we're a rather shallow lot whose self esteem is largely driven by our material possessions. And we really don't care how we get or "fix." All we care about is the "price."

3) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if we did indeed manufacter everything here, we wouldn't be able to afford lots of the luxuries that we can now, at least, I know I wouldn't be able to.
I'm not saying we have to make everything here. I'd just like to see more people avoid buying goods from countries like China, which has virtually no environmental laws, virtually no worker health and safety laws, where the people have only a little economic freedom and virtually no political freedom.

As far as this lawsuit goes, I'm 100% behind BJC here, they offer a great product at a reasonable price, which is (should be) the goal of any reputable company.
And they were doing exactly that with their regular Blue Jeans line of cables!

I mean, their most expensive three foot interconnect is only $32.75.

Who the hell were they targeting with their $5 equivalent Tartan cables? The people who dig through my garbage cans in the middle of the night looking for bottles and cans to take the recycler?

Instead of exploiting the unfortunate conditions in China just to make a buck, they should have put a little more effort into explaining to customers why their money would be better spent on their regular Blue Jeans line of cables.

se
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
Instead of exploiting the unfortunate conditions in China just to make a buck, they should have put a little more effort into explaining to customers why their money would be better spent on their regular Blue Jeans line of cables.
Steve: believe me, that is our focus. We have been pushing that point as hard as we can, for as long as we have been around. We make the point to people that our cables are assembled by US workers, with US-level wages and benefits, and that they're made with broadcast-quality cable and connectors to far higher quality standards than Chinese goods, and that it's worth paying for those things. I regret to report, though, that an increasing number of people are not getting that message.

The Tartan site is about 2 to 3% of our overall business. Why is it there? Well, just in the last couple of years, we have been losing a very significant share of the business to people who do nothing but buy the absolute cheapest Chinese cable assemblies and sell them at very low prices. The price disparity is so large that when these issues get discussed on forums and the like, where our business is largely driven, there are huge numbers of people who turn up and talk about how our BJC products are overpriced, yadda yadda, and how anyone who is smart buys the rock-bottom-priced product (these people have never seen a sweep test report on a Chinese cable!). We wind up getting put in the same class with Monster; people think we're a big bloated overpriced outfit with enormous margins, when we are none of those things. For a long while, we could do nothing about it; we would get asked by customers why they should buy the American broadcast-quality product, and if we did not convince them, we simply lost the sale.

The Tartan concept is our backup plan for those cases; at some point, when you're losing sales left and right to people who are selling the very cheapest product that can be had, you ask yourself whether you shouldn't be doing something to capture back some of those sales, and prevent the weight of the online community discussion from going wholly over to the competition. We did not want to get into that market segment at all.

We have the only HDMI cable which is made primarily in America (about 90% American, on average, on a cost basis); to my knowledge, no other HDMI cable from anyone has ANY American content. We have jumped through, and continue to jump through, a fantastic number of hoops to get that done, despite the fact that we're a very small company. We are still working on a project to get to where we can do termination of HDMI cable domestically, and if we do get there, we will be the only one. We are committed to using American labor; we have a great crew of employees here and we would love to hire more.

By the way, did you know that Monster once bought quite a lot of its cable from Belden? The companies had something of a falling-out when Monster decided to shop all of these Belden-designed products out to Chinese vendors, and at present I think (though I don't have direct access to current info, so this could be wrong) that Monster doesn't buy anything from Belden. They chose to off-shore and out-source products, in a way we would never do.

Now, to go back to another issue you raised: yes, it's true that this threat of litigation is not the "we-sue-any-business-with-monster-in-the-name" type made famous by Monster Vintage, Monster Garage, et cetera. The threat of litigation is based upon design patents and trademarks. But it seems to me that you have suggested that we are saying Monster doesn't deserve the protection of the intellectual property laws; we are not saying that at all. Rather, what we are saying (and will say in considerably more detail within the next few days, when we publish our response letter to Monster) is that Monster's position that we have infringed these patents and trademarks is completely ludicrous. The patents and marks they cite are substantially different from the Tartan connector, and if one construed them broadly enough to cover the Tartan connector, it would effectively grant Monster a design patent on the whole field of solder-pin, assembly-type RCA connectors.

The quick way to see this is to compare the patent drawings accompanying the letter with the actual Tartan connector. But it actually gets much worse than that, as my letter will show. Monster's counsel strategically omitted certain facts from the letter--in particular, an expired design patent which represents "prior art" and of which Monster must have known (because it had been theirs). The claim that we have committed infringement is not only frivolous, but outright dishonest, and it is just another manifestation of the abusive attitude toward the intellectual property laws Monster has shown again and again.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
 
Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
Hello, Kurt!

Steve: believe me, that is our focus. We have been pushing that point as hard as we can, for as long as we have been around. We make the point to people that our cables are assembled by US workers, with US-level wages and benefits, and that they're made with broadcast-quality cable and connectors to far higher quality standards than Chinese goods, and that it's worth paying for those things. I regret to report, though, that an increasing number of people are not getting that message.
Not getting that message, or simply not caring about that message?

The Tartan site is about 2 to 3% of our overall business. Why is it there? Well, just in the last couple of years, we have been losing a very significant share of the business to people who do nothing but buy the absolute cheapest Chinese cable assemblies and sell them at very low prices. The price disparity is so large that when these issues get discussed on forums and the like, where our business is largely driven, there are huge numbers of people who turn up and talk about how our BJC products are overpriced, yadda yadda, and how anyone who is smart buys the rock-bottom-priced product (these people have never seen a sweep test report on a Chinese cable!). We wind up getting put in the same class with Monster; people think we're a big bloated overpriced outfit with enormous margins, when we are none of those things.
Might I suggest perhaps diversifying your marketing efforts a bit and not relying so heavily on a bunch of wankers on audio forums? :D

For a long while, we could do nothing about it; we would get asked by customers why they should buy the American broadcast-quality product, and if we did not convince them, we simply lost the sale.
Well, there are always those who will not be convinced. Though I wouldn't necessarily consider that losing a sale as there was never much potential for a sale in the first place.

The Tartan concept is our backup plan for those cases; at some point, when you're losing sales left and right to people who are selling the very cheapest product that can be had, you ask yourself whether you shouldn't be doing something to capture back some of those sales, and prevent the weight of the online community discussion from going wholly over to the competition. We did not want to get into that market segment at all.
And here you reiterate your heavy reliance on the online community, and again I can't help thinking that that's more the problem than your not having had beggar budget cables to sell to the cynics.

We have the only HDMI cable which is made primarily in America (about 90% American, on average, on a cost basis); to my knowledge, no other HDMI cable from anyone has ANY American content. We have jumped through, and continue to jump through, a fantastic number of hoops to get that done, despite the fact that we're a very small company. We are still working on a project to get to where we can do termination of HDMI cable domestically, and if we do get there, we will be the only one. We are committed to using American labor; we have a great crew of employees here and we would love to hire more.
Admirable!

By the way, did you know that Monster once bought quite a lot of its cable from Belden? The companies had something of a falling-out when Monster decided to shop all of these Belden-designed products out to Chinese vendors, and at present I think (though I don't have direct access to current info, so this could be wrong) that Monster doesn't buy anything from Belden. They chose to off-shore and out-source products, in a way we would never do.
Not at all surprising.

Now, to go back to another issue you raised: yes, it's true that this threat of litigation is not the "we-sue-any-business-with-monster-in-the-name" type made famous by Monster Vintage, Monster Garage, et cetera. The threat of litigation is based upon design patents and trademarks. But it seems to me that you have suggested that we are saying Monster doesn't deserve the protection of the intellectual property laws; we are not saying that at all.
Oh no, not at all!

I was suggesting that that's what Clint DeBoer seemed to be saying in his original piece that spawned this thread.

Rather, what we are saying (and will say in considerably more detail within the next few days, when we publish our response letter to Monster) is that Monster's position that we have infringed these patents and trademarks is completely ludicrous. The patents and marks they cite are substantially different from the Tartan connector, and if one construed them broadly enough to cover the Tartan connector, it would effectively grant Monster a design patent on the whole field of solder-pin, assembly-type RCA connectors.
I haven't dug into the design patents to compare with the RCAs you're using on the Tartans, but the sad fact of the matter is that ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Right or wrong, Monster Cable is in a position to drain you of resources you quite likely can't afford.

The quick way to see this is to compare the patent drawings accompanying the letter with the actual Tartan connector. But it actually gets much worse than that, as my letter will show. Monster's counsel strategically omitted certain facts from the letter--in particular, an expired design patent which represents "prior art" and of which Monster must have known (because it had been theirs). The claim that we have committed infringement is not only frivolous, but outright dishonest, and it is just another manifestation of the abusive attitude toward the intellectual property laws Monster has shown again and again.
And that may well be the case. However I'm sure Monster's legal thugs haven't any interest in any arguments you might make against their claims. And given that this issue isn't quite the same as their infamous trademark issues, I'm not sure how much sway public opinion can have.

But I guess anything's possible. :D

By the way, could you shoot me an EMail (steve@q-audio.com)? I'd like to talk to you about an unrelated issue.

Thanks!

se
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
Not getting that message, or simply not caring about that message?

Might I suggest perhaps diversifying your marketing efforts a bit and not relying so heavily on a bunch of wankers on audio forums? :D
You know, actually, that's the holy grail around here. I go to CES and CEDIA; I look at competitors, and I ponder the field, and I try to work out exactly what it would take to diversify our "online" business into an offline environment. I haven't figured it out yet, and might not ever.

Without telling the whole story (I'm not going to spill all my "trade secrets"), suffice it to say that the very things that make us competitive in the online world are something of an albatross elsewhere. For example, margins: on many cables, we build everything from stock product, and although we get better pricing than the average man on the street, we don't really get MUCH better pricing. What this means is that our prices are constrained by the fact that anybody who wants to go into business tomorrow building component video cables out of Belden 1694A can do so; and if we price it too high, they will. That's fine, until you ask, "how do I put this product in distribution?" At that point, what becomes very clear is that the only way to do it, at least under our existing branding, is to raise prices substantially, so that we can sell to distributors at something slightly lower than our current prices, and they can sell at retail without being undercut by us. But to do so is very much a case of buying a pig in a poke; we would immediately suffer dramatic loss of our existing market, and there is no assurance that we would actually win any of that reseller market we'd be doing it for.

We may figure it out someday; but right now, it's the Gordian knot, and all I have is a butter knife.

The online market has generally trended toward lower and lower pricing. We have always liked to think that we represent, in some respect, the high point of that trend in the sense that we represent relatively low pricing for goods of broadcast quality. You can spend more and get less, or spend less and get less, but it's hard to get more at any price. But what we have seen is that the drive toward low pricing is relentless, and is only partially hitched to the quality of product. That would be untroubling were it not for the fact that internet marketing is enormously customer-driven. People who preceded us into this internet custom cable business have in some cases gone from prominent to falling-off-the-map just because they lost their prominence in the ongoing online discussion.


I haven't dug into the design patents to compare with the RCAs you're using on the Tartans, but the sad fact of the matter is that ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Right or wrong, Monster Cable is in a position to drain you of resources you quite likely can't afford.
Actually, I very much disagree. My long acquaintance with litigation included a lot of time representing small litigants against large ones, and a lot of time representing large litigants against small ones. There are advantages to large size, and there are advantages to small size. If large litigants always have the advantage, how come there are so many successful plaintiffs' personal injury lawyers? They are almost always representing the little guy against the big guy. The fact is that size makes it harder to control the facts; it makes it harder to know what your own witnesses will say; it makes it more burdensome to comply with discovery requests; and it exposes you to liability on more fronts than you can really be aware of at the outset.

Where smaller litigants often suffer is that they don't know who to go to for help, and they do not understand the litigation process or the considerations that control the merits of the claims well enough to really properly integrate their strategy with their circumstances. Litigation is precision work, but a lot of it is done in a slapdash fashion, both by large and small litigants, and a lot of it is done without due consideration for overarching strategy and for thematic development of a claim or defense. A lot of lawyers, sad to say, are inattentive to the law and allow issues to go to trial which they should win on dispositive motions; I could not count the number of times that I filed a motion for summary judgment and a colleague would say, "isn't that an issue of fact?" without even knowing anything about the case--as though certain types of claims were always destined for trial regardless of the state of the record. Hogwash, I say; meritless claims or defenses can often be cut short, whether the plaintiff is big or small.

One of the defining characteristics of my practice was that I won cases nobody thought could be won at all--cases which my client had spent a long time trying to find a lawyer to even listen to--and I won them, in many cases, on summary judgment, without taking the case to trial. On a few occasions, I won summary judgment for plaintiffs in civil rights cases--something I have never known anyone else to do, and which many of my colleagues considered an intrinsically absurd idea. One of my fondest memories is of a hearing some years back; opposing counsel, after oral argument on my plaintiffs' motion for summary judgment before a U.S. District Judge had concluded, said loudly to his client (intending, I think, that I hear it): "the judge will NEVER grant this motion." Three days later, the judge did, and a few weeks later I had a check in hand and a settlement agreement granting me everything I'd sued for.

Anyway, now I sound like I am bragging, which is not to the point. What I really mean is this: the main thing that makes litigation easier, or harder, is the merits. If you have a good claim and good counsel, it's very hard for anyone to beat you into submission. If you have a lousy claim and good counsel, the most you can be reasonably assured of is that your counsel will make your opponent's course more difficult than it ought to have been; and I have beaten up people who had excellent counsel and lousy claims or defenses time and time again. Try to mug me, and I may mug you back.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I was a Union Ironworker in the 80's. We were big on the buy American bandwagon but no one listened and I stopped trying to convert people. I am label conscious in all my consumer affairs......from food to clothes. I used to say buy American but I gave up. I still won't drive a foreign car......

FYI I gave the big three their chance with a new 93' Chevy Cavalier. You know what, they blew it. The thing started costing me money 2K miles out of warranty and didn't make to 88K miles. Guess what, mine wasn't the only one. My wife is still driving a 93' Corolla.

I am tired of this 'buy American' sentiment. Make a better mouse trap that is competitive on all fronts and you will see my hard earned $$. You want to know who didn't listen? American Manufacturing.

And yes, even back in 93' I read the owners guide cover to cover...:)
 
Last edited:
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
I am tired of this 'buy American' sentiment. Make a better mouse trap that is competitive on all fronts and you will see my hard earned $$. You want to know who didn't listen? American Manufacturing.
Personally, I've never liked the "buy American" sentiment that flows from jingoism as opposed to the merits of products, countries or companies. What I personally try to do is to source goods, when possible, from countries that are democratically run. American, Mexican, Canadian, Japanese, French, British goods, and so on...all just fine, in my opinion. What is sad is that China is a huge abuser of human rights, and has basically converted itself from Stalinistic communism to a sort of modern industrial Fascism, in which the country is run for the benefit of a small class of captains of industry. To me, it is important that goods are produced in a country where the workers have real political and economic rights.

But it is amazing, in today's market, how difficult it can be to find non-Chinese sources for a/v cable assemblies. We have talked to Belden about using the services of a Mexican assembly house which they own for some lower-budget products, but so far that hasn't been a fit, for various reasons. We source some goods from Taiwan, but it's hard to be 100% certain that a Taiwanese company isn't just having goods manufactured in China and passing them through.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
 
Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
By the way, are we not already so inundated with advertising on the I n t e r n e t that Audioholics needs to use its own members' posts to create even more ads?

Does anyone else here find this just a bit insidious?

se

P.S. I edited "I n t e r n e t" to keep that from being turned into an ad.
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
I'd be more than willing to buy from them if they offered black sleeved speaker wires.

I know I know I can do that myself but I don't even own a shrink gun and I don't wanna have the hassle of doing this all by myself.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I'd be more than willing to buy from them if they offered black sleeved speaker wires.

I know I know I can do that myself but I don't even own a shrink gun and I don't wanna have the hassle of doing this all by myself.
I believe they do, it's just a special order, and costs more.

Do a search, there was a thread on it.

SheepStar
 
Steve Eddy

Steve Eddy

Audioholic Intern
Personally, I've never liked the "buy American" sentiment that flows from jingoism as opposed to the merits of products, countries or companies.
Agreed.

What I personally try to do is to source goods, when possible, from countries that are democratically run. American, Mexican, Canadian, Japanese, French, British goods, and so on...all just fine, in my opinion.
Ditto. Though Mexico's largely a rather corrupt shithole so I would consider them only marginally "democratically run."

What is sad is that China is a huge abuser of human rights, and has basically converted itself from Stalinistic communism to a sort of modern industrial Fascism, in which the country is run for the benefit of a small class of captains of industry.
Quite so.

To me, it is important that goods are produced in a country where the workers have real political and economic rights.
Pardon me for being blunt here, but your Tartan line indicates that it's really not all that important to you.

But it is amazing, in today's market, how difficult it can be to find non-Chinese sources for a/v cable assemblies.
That's because most everything of that sort is geared toward the mass market, which is only concerned with the lowest price (quality be damned), and doesn't give a rat's *** where or by whom they're made. If they were made by child slave labor in concentration camps they wouldn't bat an eye as long as they were cheaper than everything else.

se
 
K

KurtBJC

Audioholic
Pardon me for being blunt here, but your Tartan line indicates that it's really not all that important to you.
Well, on the face of it, that's a fair comment. But what I will say is that you might be surprised at how hard we have worked, behind the scenes, to TRY to source cable assemblies from non-Chinese suppliers. The dominance of the Chinese in this field right now is amazing.

Take HDMI cable, for example. To my knowledge, apart from our Belden HDMI, there is not and has never been an HDMI cable containing ANY non-Chinese parts or labor. So, when I find a cable assembler in a non-Chinese locale, not only do they have no source for raw unterminated cable, and no source for connectors, but they have nobody who has ever assembled one of these. That is logistically a nightmare. Does it stop us from trying? No, but it has stopped us from succeeding in erasing China from the supply chain.

I have walked long, long distances at CES without finding a single cable seller who sold anything that wasn't Chinese--unless you include the small handful of people who sell extremely expensive boutique cables from Germany and that sort of thing. Go to any booth, write down the UL E-codes on the product, and when you get back to the hotel, trace them--it is China, China, and more China. It's barely possible to find a coax factory that isn't Chinese. And the sad thing is that a lot of this cable isn't being sold at bottom dollar; it's being sold at top dollar with a fancy label on it, and the customer believes that it is the state of the art, despite the fact that American companies like Belden are paying American workers to make better (and, at retail, cheaper) product by the millions of feet.

We beat the drum for American products all the time. But the fact is that in the consumer market right now, just as in the Wal-Mart, most people do not care about China's human rights record. They care mostly about the fact that they can pick up goods really, really cheap. And when it comes to arguments about product quality, many people are completely indifferent.

So, if you choose to think less of us because of the Tartan line, well, so be it. But bear in mind that while that site is 2 or 3% of our business, the great majority of our competitors in the consumer market are selling nothing but Chinese product; if seeing our 2 or 3% gets you upset, then the 99% elsewhere ought to really get you twisted up.

Kurt
Blue Jeans Cable
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I use 4 HDMI and/or DVI cables from Blue Jeans and I have ZERO complaints.

If you don't like that a few cables are made in China, you'd better go and check all of your gear at home. Unless you picked it up from ID manufacturers, most or all of it was built in China, regardless of where the company originates. Even the ID manufacturers have at least parts or subassemblies that are built in China. Does that mean those who are bothered by this have a conflict of interest? Your TV. Your cell phone. Your toaster. Your coffee maker. The computer you are using right now...
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I think selling the cheaper cables is a good thing as it gets people over to your site and just maybe exposes them to this:

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/index.htm

The information is priceless. A fair bit of it is over my head but learning anything has always been harder than staying stupid.

The other good thing about selling cheaper cables is that it allows a person to get a system up and running without having to dish out hundreds of dollars that they don't have. Then after doing a little reading those same people will know that cable really does only get so good and it can be had right there at BJC. That combination of product and information essentially cuts the legs out from under the $2000 cable sellers,
may they rot in hell.:)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
...learning anything has always been harder than staying stupid.
I am nominating that one for quote of the week :)

One other thing: all those lawsuits are going to do little more than contributing to the price of Monster's cables. You don't think all those lawsuits are free do you?
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top