Monolith by Monoprice HTP-1 16 Channel Dolby Atmos & DTS:X Home Theater Processor w/Dirac & Alexa Compatibility

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
most people have no reason to set the output up at 4 vrms, and this is largely agreed upon by everybody in the AVS thread. Most amps users are operating are in the 1.6-2.6 vrms range.
Agreed 100%, but if you going to spend $4,000 on an AVP, wouldn't you want your AV processor capable of performing better than a $,1119 AVR that comes soak and wet with 9 channels of internal amps. Fair?:)

For a $4,000 product, the user deserves to know how they perform at their rated output, and that's why I actually appreciate the fact that he select 2 V RCA and 4 V XLR as his test standard, same as Audioholic's. As mentioned before, Gene also stressed the importance of preamp output performance at the 2 V level, he has commented more than once (may be not exactly the same wording every time) on the need for 2 V (RCA) including comments such as:

"A preamp output of less than 2Vrms is unacceptable in my book".

Again, that would mean 4 Vrms for XLR as I, and others explained in previous posts.

the HTP-1 performs well beyond what a headless panther indicates. Many of us know to not take any single review at face value, and this is no different. My comments about Amir's review and headless rating, though, stand
Of course your comments stand, it's your opinion that I fully respect whether I agree with it or not. I just felt it seemed biased and perhaps partially due to misunderstanding on the reviewers comments. My educated guess is that, for a $4,000 AVP Amir expected SOTA or closed to SOTA performance, at least in terms of SINAD at the typical 2 V/4 V standard for testing.

I must admit coming from you I was very surprise, as you always impressed me as someone who always remained fair and objective.. In this case, it would be weird if Amir tested such an AVP at lower voltages than he did on the preamp outputs of the much cheaper AVRs. He at least measured it at reduced voltage and rank the product top on the chart at the time based on the reduced voltage. So in my opinion the users have little to complain!! They should in fact be happy for the service, that allows them to pair with amplifiers for their need without sacrificing performance (on paper, not necessarily audibility).

That's no difference than testing a 200 W power amp at its rated output level and expect its performance to remain good all the way to the rated output level, even though for real world use most people probably only use 1-2W average per channel most of the time!

I am only pointing out is that the negative criticism on ASR regarding testing at 2V/4V is not fair because

- the 2V/4V is sort of a defacto standard adopted by other reputable review sites too, including Audioholics.com.
- there are good reasons to test at those levels, as clearly explained by Gene if not Amir (he did too actually)
- Amir gave his reasons for the headless panther, and he never tell anyone not to go with the product.

In the conclusion Amir did say:

"Buy this product because you want its features, not because you think the $4,000 is bringing you superlative objective audio performance." That seems like a very reasonable comment to me.

After all, he's the reviewer so he get to choose the benchmark for getting a panther with the head lol, but hey I do get your point and I have read multiple times viewers complaints about the panther head missing.:D

and I think actual HTP-1 owners would resoundingly agree that this review from Amir is not representative of what this unit brings to the table.
I can understand some of the users sentiment, assuming they paid close to the list price of $4,000 for that unit. My comments were made as a neutral bystander who don't have a horse in the race, so it is easy for me to be relatively unbiased. Based on the measured performance, the Monolith preamp processor deserved the ASR rating given, and again in his conclusion he said "by......because of.....its features, not because.....bringing you superlative objective......performance..

By the way, any update on your DIY amps coming along? I am still interested in one but would wait for your feedback/opinions.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It can't simply be economy of scale?
You are right, but you may be surprise how significant the "economy of scale" factor is, it could be huge for such kind of products. Try google for say a DAC IC, you will see examples such as:

The ES9026Pro is what Yamaha used in their AV controllers, you can see from Mouser, $30 for one and dropped to $22.5 for 100. So don't be surprised Yamaha could get them for well below $20! That's just for a little DAC chip, you can expect the same volume discount on resistors, capacitors, processors, transformer etc.etc., if not more...

ES9026PRO ESS Technology | Mouser

Pricing (USD)
Qty.Unit PriceExt. Price
1$30.00$30.00
5$25.88$129.40
25$24.00$600.00
100$22.50$2,250.00
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
You are right, but you may be surprise how significant the "economy of scale" factor is, it could be huge for such kind of products. Try google for say a DAC IC, you will see examples such as:

The ES9026Pro is what Yamaha used in their AV controllers, you can see from Mouser, $30 for one and dropped to $22.5 for 100. So don't be surprised Yamaha could get them for well below $20! That's just for a little DAC chip, you can expect the same volume discount on resistors, capacitors, processors, transformer etc.etc., if not more...

ES9026PRO ESS Technology | Mouser

Pricing (USD)
Qty.Unit PriceExt. Price
1$30.00$30.00
5$25.88$129.40
25$24.00$600.00
100$22.50$2,250.00
Would that be whole sale?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I continue to be fascinated by the controversy generated by the ASR website and Amir. He's very open about it: his testing is about engineering excellence. He gets into other factors, like ergonomics, build quality, features, ease of use, etc, but primarily his reviews are about measurements. And he uniquely, at least among consumer audio reviewing, uses SINAD as a measure of engineering excellence. Even that choice generates controversy. I don't agree with everything he says, I don't agree with some of his measurement criteria choices, but he does more reviews in a month than most other publications or websites do in a year. Amir doesn't tolerate foolish remarks with grace, he has strong biases about how equipment should be measured, he's not especially open to input about measurements (though he claims to be), but his personality aside (and who am I to talk?), for me at least, he's been adding more value to open equipment measurement and analysis than anyone else I'm aware of. I really respect his contributions to the field, but they're not for everybody.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
I continue to be fascinated by the controversy generated by the ASR website and Amir. He's very open about it: his testing is about engineering excellence. He gets into other factors, like ergonomics, build quality, features, ease of use, etc, but primarily his reviews are about measurements. And he uniquely, at least among consumer audio reviewing, uses SINAD as a measure of engineering excellence. Even that choice generates controversy. I don't agree with everything he says, I don't agree with some of his measurement criteria choices, but he does more reviews in a month than most other publications or websites do in a year. Amir doesn't tolerate foolish remarks with grace, he has strong biases about how equipment should be measured, he's not especially open to input about measurements (though he claims to be), but his personality aside (and who am I to talk?), for me at least, he's been adding more value to open equipment measurement and analysis than anyone else I'm aware of. I really respect his contributions to the field, but they're not for everybody.
Would You say he runs test that Gene does? or his test are as accurate as what Gene test? Also is he a audio engineer?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Would You say he runs test that Gene does? or his test are as accurate as what Gene test? Also is he a audio engineer?
Amir is very qualified:


Testing accuracy cannot be judged subjectively. Set-up and execution are very delicate and complicated. The quality of test results are typically judged by consistency between independent testers. Anomalous results are usually suspect, or brings into question whether the device being tested is faulty.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I continue to be fascinated by the controversy generated by the ASR website and Amir. He's very open about it: his testing is about engineering excellence. He gets into other factors, like ergonomics, build quality, features, ease of use, etc, but primarily his reviews are about measurements. And he uniquely, at least among consumer audio reviewing, uses SINAD as a measure of engineering excellence. Even that choice generates controversy. I don't agree with everything he says, I don't agree with some of his measurement criteria choices, but he does more reviews in a month than most other publications or websites do in a year. Amir doesn't tolerate foolish remarks with grace, he has strong biases about how equipment should be measured, he's not especially open to input about measurements (though he claims to be), but his personality aside (and who am I to talk?), for me at least, he's been adding more value to open equipment measurement and analysis than anyone else I'm aware of. I really respect his contributions to the field, but they're not for everybody.
Agreed, and regarding being open to input about measurements or not, I have some experience in offering suggestions/inputs on measurements and I would estimate a successfully rate of roughly 25%. Inputs/suggestions he accepted (from members) and put into practice would include but not limited to the following:

0) Does it matter for SINAD to be as high as many of the DACs he measured? He did give his reasoning/basis as to why he consider SOTA to be 120 dB, or at least 115 dB, while agreeing with many users that the threshold of audibility could be much lower.
1) Measuring SINAD at reduced output voltage, in addition to the standard 2V/4V RCA/XLR.
2) Include the SINAD versus measured level up to 2 V, sometime higher, like 4V RCA, 8 V XLR.
3) SINAD versus load impedance (just once so far that I know of).
4) AVRs only - 5 channel driven power output (not every time, but have done so more than once)
5) AVRs only - Center channel measurements (just once that I know of, SINAD only).

That's only what I can think of just now, I am sure there were more. In my opinion, 2) is very useful, much more so that just one number such as 90 dB at 2 V. I am not aware (I must have missed some though) of anyone providing such valuable information.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Would You say he runs test that Gene does? or his test are as accurate as what Gene test? Also is he a audio engineer?
In additional to Irv's (that I agreed with..), I can tell you with certainty that if you compared units they both measured, in fact you can include hometheaterhifi.com's, and Stereophiles, as well and Denon/Marantz internal measurements, they were all within the ball park. If anyone has seen very different results between his and Amir's on the same gear or very comparable models they both measured, I would like to know. And obviously this is in terms of measurements, not their subjective views.
 
G

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
Amir is very qualified:


Testing accuracy cannot be judged subjectively. Set-up and execution are very delicate and complicated. The quality of test results are typically judged by consistency between independent testers. Anomalous results are usually suspect, or brings into question whether the device being tested is faulty.
Thanks Irv, was just wondering is all. I do jump over on his site a few times a week, always find some very good reads on his site even seen a few AH memebers handing out there.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Verbiage, style aside (and yes those matters too!), I do believe one reason for the ASR controversies could just be human nature at work.

ASR is just about the only site that has repeatedly revealed the fact that many relatively expensive amps (all kinds), and processors did not perform better than many much less expensive ones. Other benches might have done that too but much less often because they don't test nearly as many.

Its like the exotic cables thing, you pay more and you heard the difference (so called better SQ), only to have your bubble burst; and then you have to lean back on the consoling argument that "for real world use it doesn't matter anyway because.......", hence adding to the controversy..
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Verbiage, style aside (and yes those matters too!), I do believe one reason for the ASR controversies could just be human nature at work.
Agreed. Case in point for controversy, Amir's review of the Salk WoW1 speaker. 21 pages of discussion, with Amir quoting the Salk website to boot and dissing the claims, and the Salk fanboys coming out to defend their hero. Personally, I have my own issues with the review, like pushing this dinky little speaker to 96db, but the entire thread made for fun reading, even with an occasional raised eyebrow on my part.

 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Agreed. Case in point for controversy, Amir's review of the Salk WoW1 speaker. 21 pages of discussion, with Amir quoting the Salk website to boot and dissing the claims, and the Salk fanboys coming out to defend their hero. Personally, I have my own issues with the review, like pushing this dinky little speaker to 96db, but the entire thread made for fun reading, even with an occasional raised eyebrow on my part.

Excellent example!! Thank you,

To me, Dennis Murphy's(probably one of the most competent and honest designer) post said a lot:

(3) Salk WoW1 Bookshelf Speaker Review | Page 10 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Yes, I did the crossover and my measurements pretty much track Amir's, except that the dip at 600 Hz has less resolution and looks very much like other dips I have seen on small speakers with little baffle area around the woofer. It now appears the issue involves the port. I'm as interested as anyone in finding out the precise cause.
@Gmoney , I think that further supports my response to your earlier question.:)

When it measures good, you can bet Amir would not be mean with his verbiage:

Here's what he said about another Dennis Murphy's work, a mod in this case:
(3) Affordable Accuracy Monitor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Conclusions
I am saddened that this little jewel is not produced anymore. I fully understand as I can't imagine buying these speakers and spending another $86 in parts and selling them for just $168. It would be definition of slavery in my opinion. :) I wish you all could sit here and listen to this speaker providing excellent enjoyment to well recorded music with just some limitations on bass and low-frequency loudness.

I am going to try to buy this sample from Dennis and hopefully one day use it for blind listening tests with our audiophile group.

Naturally, I highly recommended the Affordable Accuracy Monitor (AAM) if you can get your hands on it.


On the other hand, I hope Irvrobinson missed the following paragraph:p, where evidently Amir might have gotten carried away in the end!

Note that my playlist was generated from listening to my library on my Revel Salon 2 speakers (around $23,000 a pair). This little speaker shows that if you follow the science with flat on-axis response and low distortion, you can emulate a lot of that experience with just $168. If the while industry did this, then we would have many good speakers that do justice to our content regardless of who designed them.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
he does more reviews in a month than most other publications or websites do in a year.
That's great. Now could somebody please send the good man a Yamaha CX-A5100, CX-A5200, and RX-A3080 already?

Don't even look at me like that. Mine ain't going anywhere. :eek:
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
On the other hand, I hope Irvrobinson missed the following paragraph:p, where evidently Amir might have gotten carried away in the end!

Note that my playlist was generated from listening to my library on my Revel Salon 2 speakers (around $23,000 a pair). This little speaker shows that if you follow the science with flat on-axis response and low distortion, you can emulate a lot of that experience with just $168. If the while industry did this, then we would have many good speakers that do justice to our content regardless of who designed them.
I've heard several speakers, including a couple of smaller Revel speakers, that can sound almost as good as the Salon2 on many types of music. I think the only advantages the Salon2 has over any of them is that it has deeper bass, and it can play rather loudly in a very large room with low distortion. In a smaller room than I have, I think a speaker like the Salon2 might be a waste of money lately. I think you can do almost as well for about a third of the price.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
That's great. Now could somebody please send the good man a Yamaha CX-A5100, CX-A5200, and RX-A3080 already?

Don't even look at me like that. Mine ain't going anywhere. :eek:
You don't want Amir to review AVRs. He'll probably say nasty things about their quality of engineering, and give them a headless panther to boot.
 
flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
For what it's worth, I just sent my HTP-1 back. It rebooted itself and wouldn't load. Called monoprice.com and they guided me to do a factory reset which entails getting a micro SD card, downloading a disk image onto it and reloading all the software. You better have a PC because they have no idea nor instructions on how to write a disk image with a Mac. After I went through that mess, with a Mac, the processor was making digital noises/pops when surround modes were switched. It did it with a DVD player and when using the Roon app with both Tidal and Qobuz. Emailed them again with the problem and this morning when I went to my theater room the unit was rebooting itself constantly. Nobody had used it for 2 days. Couldn't even turn it on. Back it went. The return process was easy but they're saying the shipping costs are not refundable which I can't believe as this is a DEFECTIVE unit, not just a "I don't want it anymore" unit.

Now to see what I'm going to use as a processor....

Pretty upset as I really liked the unit but not gonna keep a $4,000 paperweight.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
You don't want Amir to review AVRs. He'll probably say nasty things about their quality of engineering, and give them a headless panther to boot.
True. We'll just ignore his reviews and go straight to the measurement section like with Stereophile, S&V, and 99% of all reviews. :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For what it's worth, I just sent my HTP-1 back. It rebooted itself and wouldn't load. Called monoprice.com and they guided me to do a factory reset which entails getting a micro SD card, downloading a disk image onto it and reloading all the software. You better have a PC because they have no idea nor instructions on how to write a disk image with a Mac. After I went through that mess, with a Mac, the processor was making digital noises/pops when surround modes were switched. It did it with a DVD player and when using the Roon app with both Tidal and Qobuz. Emailed them again with the problem and this morning when I went to my theater room the unit was rebooting itself constantly. Nobody had used it for 2 days. Couldn't even turn it on. Back it went. The return process was easy but they're saying the shipping costs are not refundable which I can't believe as this is a DEFECTIVE unit, not just a "I don't want it anymore" unit.

Now to see what I'm going to use as a processor....

Pretty upset as I really liked the unit but not gonna keep a $4,000 paperweight.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
Telling you bro, just stick to $1,800 Pre-pros (after the backorder status). They hurt a lot less. ;) :D
 
flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Senior Audioholic
Telling you bro, just stick to $1,800 Pre-pros (after the backorder status). They hurt a lot less. ;) :D
Hahaha. I'm gonna wait for the "real" ATI unit. If no dice, then Yamaha will be.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You better have a PC because they have no idea nor instructions on how to write a disk image with a Mac. After I went through that mess, with a Mac, the processor was making digital noises/pops when surround modes were switched.
FWIW, I'm a Mac guy for the past several years, but I keep a PC around just for situations like this, mostly for updating automotive firmware. You bring up Mac support with most companies and they laugh. When I brought up a Mac with one of the automotive firmware guys his response was, "A Mac? Can you spell that?" Message received.
 
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