Monoblock amplifiers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

And that's why it's marketing BS- they're NOT heavier, but they were called 'massive'.

Honesty….is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue….

 

[Mikado463]

at 90 lbs apiece I consider my mono blocks to be heavy, massive, call 'em what you want, LOL !

 

[highfigh]

Everything now is sensationalized. I mean, 98F is no longer hot enough. They instead put emphasis on the "feels like" temperature. As someone who has worked outdoors in FL. and in an open air welding shop his whole life, I can tell you that 98F has always been hot enough. It still feels like 98F always did. But these dorks who go from their AC'd house or office, the 50ft or so to the AC'd car, to the next AC'd destination, swear it must be hotter than it actually is.

Have you seen a weather report that included the 'wet bulb' temperature? I was surprised- hadn't heard about that since I was in an HVAC class in college.

I haven't minded the hot/humid weather and we had some days with 92°F and 87% RH. I wasn't busting my hump in full sunlight, but I was outside for hours.

 

[highfigh]

Honesty….is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue….

Thanks, Billy.

 

[PENG]

I'll be sure and read through it. you guys are awesome and Geniuses LOL!! I use 12 gauge speaker wire from QED, XLR cables from blue jeans and audioquest. Thinking about getting the Kimber cable 8TC Gene recommends, but a little too pricey for me right now.

Another question I'm sure you guys know about... I just use generic settings for my Crossover at 80hz and my LFE at 120hz. is that adequate or should I play around and experiment with other settings?

Based on bench test results, say total distortions and noise, those Apollon power amps that use the well known class D designs such as Purifi and Hypex modules are among the best. Take a look of the top 10 ever measured by Audiosciencereview.com and you will see that all but one (the Benchmark amp) are class D. You can include all power amps measured by Gene right here on Audioholics.com, such as the Anthem STR, you will not find one single class A, AB amp (again except the famous Benchmark AHB2, and probably a couple of Chinese made low output (less than 200 WPC) power amps.

Those class D amps are tiny, light weight so it is easy to place them, and if you willing to pay, you can get those build in reasonably good looking cases (subjective). I have replaced two of my big and heavy Bryston and Parasound Halo amps recently and have no desire to go back.

Apollon Hypex NC2K Monoblock Amplifier Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Apollon Audio - Hypex NCore, Purifi Based Class-D Amplifiers

So, on money no object basis, if you are after better sound quality, I hate to say it, you should really spend your money (even if you have more than plenty) on speakers. The B&W 700 series are nice, very nice looking to, but they really cannot compare with some of the KEF models based on measurements, that's if you want to continue with pursuing the British made kind of sound signature (if there is such a thing). About some potential shortcoming of the B&W diamond series, ask @TLS Guy , our resident diy speaker expert (a very bias one though lol..) or our respected @shadyJ who is very knowledgeable in speaker designs and they will tell you why for the big money, there are far better choices than B&W's diamond series, the 800 series are better, and I actually wouldn't mind them, but those are typically hard to drive, on all else being equal basis. The better KEF Reference series are hard to drive too, but with your amps/budget, apparently, I doubt that would be a factor for you, but with the KEFs, at least if you give them the current they need to draw, they will sound great for you.

HiFi Speakers | KEF Canada

Another important factor to consider is to try and use room correction systems by Dirac Live:
Dirac Live - Digital Room Correction software

Measurements don't lie, room corrections, if done well, does work like magic to your perceived sound quality verifiable by measurements.

Since you are at the level of the Anthem STR power amp, there is no point in focusing time and money on better ones, the recommended class D amps obviously have much better verifiable audio specs than the STR amps but you have asked yourself that if at such extremely low distortions and noise, flat frequency response, inaudible cross talk issues, and multiple times more output than you need, then why would amps in those categories make any difference? So, I would just go with the ones that has the best specs and available measurements so you know whether you could near the minute differences or not, at least based on known science (admittedly there might still be certain things, ie unknown science that we, the hifi people still don't know about and that might affect sound quality), you know you are getting the best for your investment.

My suggestion is, go and audition some of the reference level KEF, Focal (start from series fitted with Beryllium tweeters), Perlisten (Perlisten R7t Floor-Standing Loudspeaker Review (audioholics.com) ) and even B&W's 800 diamond's newest models.

I have never heard the Perlisten, but Gene and Shady seems to think they are great, and I trust them and they are both not only subjective, and they pay a lot of attention the verifiable audio performance base on actual measurements instead of users subjective reviews/hearsay.

Sorry about my super long post, but I really am trying to share what I leant in my many years of experience in reading, analyzing, auditioning and unfortunately, excessive spending lol.. in this silly but enjoyable hobby.

 

[JerryLove]

Everything now is sensationalized. I mean, 98F is no longer hot enough. They instead put emphasis on the "feels like" temperature. As someone who has worked outdoors in FL. and in an open air welding shop his whole life, I can tell you that 98F has always been hot enough. It still feels like 98F always did. But these dorks who go from their AC'd house or office, the 50ft or so to the AC'd car, to the next AC'd destination, swear it must be hotter than it actually is.

98F in Florida still feels like 98F in Flordia.
But it doesn't feel like 98F in Nevada.

I got out of a pool in Nevada one evening. It was 98F or thereabouts. I was not in direct sunlight. It felt like somewhere in the 70s (I too am from Florida); because evaporation was actually a thing that worked, and worked *really* well.

We do "feels like" now for two reasons.

1. It normalizes the experience across locations. Temps that kill you in FL are very manageable with shade and water in Nevada.
2. It tells you real heat danger (because you die based on wet bulb temp, not air temp).

Not that it matters to the discussion, but I've put my time in digging ditches in Florida, and running through the swamp (in BDU jackets to protect from lacerations), and most anything else you'd care to imagine.

 

[JerryLove]

It was a defining audio milestone for me, when I realized just how immune to specific 'neutral' amp type/tricks all of my neutral speakers and good recordings actually are. They essentially have the capability to be audibly flawless depending almost entirely on recording quality, once all the known standard basics are implemented.

Even one of the recent $100 budget class D amps makes them shine.

I had a collection of amps (and of course receivers with amps). I ran dozens of different amps against scores of speakers. In all but one case, I found that amps were either "sufficient" or "insufficient", and that all properly functioning amps sounded the same as long as they were running below clipping/distortion.

My one exception was a pair of B&W 801Ds. Performance was noticeably weak (worse than the 801 Matrix III I had at the same time) with all amps other than my McIntosh and (wow, I cannot believe I've forgotten the amp brand model. It was 150w @8ohm, 300@4, 600@2 and 1200@1... the thing was an arc welder). I *think* the underlying reason was a really challenging ohm response at low frequency (where it dropped below 2ohm and then went up like a vertical wall).

I'm sorry I never got to try some of the 1-ohm compliant class Ds (like Crown) to see what happened with those; but my Yamaha pro class H's couldn't get best sound from them (the only speakers I've owned they could not).

 

[Mikado463]

I had a collection of amps (and of course receivers with amps). I ran dozens of different amps against scores of speakers. In all but one case, I found that amps were either "sufficient" or "insufficient", and that all properly functioning amps sounded the same as long as they were running below clipping/distortion.

I tend to agree with this so longs as we're comparing 'apples to apples' (amp topology)

 

[JerryLove]

I tend to agree with this so longs as we're comparing 'apples to apples' (amp topology)

Topology affects how breakup modes occur when an amp is over-driven. This is a good point on the difference between music production and music re-production . In production, over-driving for distortion can be a deliberate effect (we see this in guitar amps, for example); but in re-production: adding distortion to an "already the way the artist intended" source is typically *not* a desirable outcome.

After decades of discussion, reading, and listening, I came to the conclusion that, within their valid load; all properly built amps sound the same to within the tolerances of human hearing.

I think people forget how many amps are in a chain. If I'm using the RCA's from my CD-player, to my pre-amp, to an amp; I have the amp in the DAC, the amp in the CD player (to get to line voltage), the amp in the pre-amp, and the "actual" amp all in play.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I tend to agree with this so longs as we're comparing 'apples to apples' (amp topology)

Lots have been written on amps in the past as @JerryLove indicated

Additional Audio References (tripod.com)

and one in particular about topology:

"Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that Modern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent", Rich, David and Aczel, Peter, 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.


Oh, they did use DBT protocols in their audibility testing.

 

[Mikado463]

yep, all things being equal, they are !

 

[MrBoat]

98F in Florida still feels like 98F in Flordia.
But it doesn't feel like 98F in Nevada.

I got out of a pool in Nevada one evening. It was 98F or thereabouts. I was not in direct sunlight. It felt like somewhere in the 70s (I too am from Florida); because evaporation was actually a thing that worked, and worked *really* well.

We do "feels like" now for two reasons.

1. It normalizes the experience across locations. Temps that kill you in FL are very manageable with shade and water in Nevada.
2. It tells you real heat danger (because you die based on wet bulb temp, not air temp).

Not that it matters to the discussion, but I've put my time in digging ditches in Florida, and running through the swamp (in BDU jackets to protect from lacerations), and most anything else you'd care to imagine.

This is the weatherman in FL. telling me the feels like temp in FL. I have been 'almost' bear caught before while flying trusses after lunch in 98F before. I knew it was too hot to do it before I started, and damn sure stopped when I felt it coming on. I was having to run out and hook up girders that were stacked 50ft away to the crane hook and run back and up a ladder to guide the dumb ends into the girder buckets and that operator was fast.

They could have just as easily taught people that 98F is hot, instead of unteaching a whole lot of people who already know it. Colorado is pretty dry too. I had been out there 6 months and I didn't realize how much the humidity affected temp until we masked all the windows and started spraying drywall texture. It was instantly like being back in FL.

I reckon I could have used what they do when a hurricane comes through as a better example.

 

[MrBoat]

I had a collection of amps (and of course receivers with amps). I ran dozens of different amps against scores of speakers. In all but one case, I found that amps were either "sufficient" or "insufficient", and that all properly functioning amps sounded the same as long as they were running below clipping/distortion.

My one exception was a pair of B&W 801Ds. Performance was noticeably weak (worse than the 801 Matrix III I had at the same time) with all amps other than my McIntosh and (wow, I cannot believe I've forgotten the amp brand model. It was 150w @8ohm, 300@4, 600@2 and 1200@1... the thing was an arc welder). I *think* the underlying reason was a really challenging ohm response at low frequency (where it dropped below 2ohm and then went up like a vertical wall).

I'm sorry I never got to try some of the 1-ohm compliant class Ds (like Crown) to see what happened with those; but my Yamaha pro class H's couldn't get best sound from them (the only speakers I've owned they could not).

I really don't know why someone would buy a difficult to drive speaker now. At least not since the advent of the computer age, and certainly not to where technology has evolved now. I have quite a few different amps, and settled on an old AVR that will drive anything I have, or will ever have. I was a teenager when I was taught to always buy enough headroom. Have pretty much always stuck to it and never really been hurting for power, or too concerned with distortion since. Only time recently that I have had issue with distortion is buying too puny of a speaker, which was the same back when I started all this. Of course budget speakers back then were much more prone to distortion than many of the deals that are available now, comparatively.

At any rate, as long as I don't get too geeky, or start trying to EQ unsatisfactory speakers with different amp types and cables, the differences are so subtle that I just get used to whatever it is in short order.

Otherwise, when I see someone always second-guessing their system with a bunch of wild voo-doo by way of oddball or over-the-top electronics and so-called upgrades, I automatically assume that they must've bought the wrong speakers. At least judging by all the not-so-used pedigree brands that can be found on the auction sites.

Admittedly, I am easy to please, so I don't expect my experiences apply to everyone. That, and I only really need to be concerned with stereo, which is much less complicated, or should be, at least.

 

[Robert Zinda]

As ADTG mentioned for the most part. Biggest difference with passive bi-amping is it is more based on marketing. Some speaker manufacturers simply put the extra terminals on because certain consumers expect it. Try this article and note the conclusion https://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

There is actually some gain with running a second set of wires, if you understand what damping does and how damping is lost through wires you would see there's a clear advantage in a second set of wires. Since it's impossible to properly connect a set of 8ga wires to most amps and speakers, doubling up 12ga wires becomes a great way to ensure you keep as much damping at the drivers as possible .

QSC has a chart that demonstrates the relationship between resistance and damping loss. Even at 10 feet with 10ga wire there's a small loss, each foot longer becomes a greater loss. After 100 feet with 10ga you'll lose nearly all damping. I use an active x-over on my speakers and 2x dual mono amps with no passive crossovers but my speakers are unique in that they are 2-way hybrid electrostats.

Active x-over on a 3 way speaker would be risky without the passive crossovers and I can't see any real gain since you're still running through the biggest problem piece in every speaker. Plus many times analog x-overs are doing much more than providing a simple transition point and bypassing them will make them sound awful if they are adding a custom contour to a driver to compensate for an inaccuracy in linearity.

I always suggest to people who haven't studied exactly what's going on in any speaker, it's best to simply leave them as they are, changing anything will almost always result in degraded sound or damage to drivers.

 

[JerryLove]

There is actually some gain with running a second set of wires, if you understand what damping does and how damping is lost through wires you would see there's a clear advantage in a second set of wires. Since it's impossible to properly connect a set of 8ga wires to most amps and speakers, doubling up 12ga wires becomes a great way to ensure you keep as much damping at the drivers as possible .

http://roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

http://roger-russell.com/wire/dampaugs.htm

Any damping of the system over 20 is pretty much the same as any other damping over 20.

Can you offer up the math? Why 2x12? Why not 3x? Why not 10x? Against what resistance of speaker? Over what run of wire? What's the audible impact?

QSC has a chart that demonstrates the relationship between resistance and damping loss. Even at 10 feet with 10ga wire there's a small loss, each foot longer becomes a greater loss. After 100 feet with 10ga you'll lose nearly all damping. I use an active x-over on my speakers and 2x dual mono amps with no passive crossovers but my speakers are unique in that they are 2-way hybrid electrostats.

Wire resistance is generally irrellevent.

Speaker Wire

Speaker Wire

roger-russell.com

A wire resistance of less than 5% of the nominal speaker impedance is chosen to work well with almost all speaker systems and can be considered conservative. Even a resistance of less than 10% of the nominal value could be used with some speakers and would not be audible

Active x-over on a 3 way speaker would be risky without the passive crossovers and I can't see any real gain since you're still running through the biggest problem piece in every speaker. Plus many times analog x-overs are doing much more than providing a simple transition point and bypassing them will make them sound awful if they are adding a custom contour to a driver to compensate for an inaccuracy in linearity.

I honestly don't even know what you are trying to say.

I always suggest to people who haven't studied exactly what's going on in any speaker, it's best to simply leave them as they are, changing anything will almost always result in degraded sound or damage to drivers.

When did someone start talking about modifying speakers?

The person you quoted (correctly) called out that bi-amping a speaker with passive crossovers is generally pointless and is a marketing trick. Just go ahead and bridge the terminals and use a single amp.

 

[Trell]

Active x-over on a 3 way speaker would be risky without the passive crossovers and I can't see any real gain since you're still running through the biggest problem piece in every speaker. Plus many times analog x-overs are doing much more than providing a simple transition point and bypassing them will make them sound awful if they are adding a custom contour to a driver to compensate for an inaccuracy in linearity.

Active speakers (cross-overs before the amps) works really well and have a number of advantages over passive speakers (cross-overs after the amps).

I would love to have these for a surround setup, but alas, too expensive. One of them would work excellently as a center speaker lying on the side, and not taking up so much vertical space.

Genelec 8361A Review (Powered Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelc 8361A studio monitor (powered active speaker). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $4,995. The 8361A looks identical to the rest of the series except massively scaled up: It doesn't look it but it is extremely heavy. It has a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MrBoat]

There is actually some gain with running a second set of wires, if you understand what damping does and how damping is lost through wires you would see there's a clear advantage in a second set of wires. Since it's impossible to properly connect a set of 8ga wires to most amps and speakers, doubling up 12ga wires becomes a great way to ensure you keep as much damping at the drivers as possible .

QSC has a chart that demonstrates the relationship between resistance and damping loss. Even at 10 feet with 10ga wire there's a small loss, each foot longer becomes a greater loss. After 100 feet with 10ga you'll lose nearly all damping. I use an active x-over on my speakers and 2x dual mono amps with no passive crossovers but my speakers are unique in that they are 2-way hybrid electrostats.

Active x-over on a 3 way speaker would be risky without the passive crossovers and I can't see any real gain since you're still running through the biggest problem piece in every speaker. Plus many times analog x-overs are doing much more than providing a simple transition point and bypassing them will make them sound awful if they are adding a custom contour to a driver to compensate for an inaccuracy in linearity.

I always suggest to people who haven't studied exactly what's going on in any speaker, it's best to simply leave them as they are, changing anything will almost always result in degraded sound or damage to drivers.

That sure is a lot to have to go through just to listen to a music recording, at least, having been proven on a set of monitors that set out to average the sound quality across what amounts to too many different kinds of speakers and the variables of the environments they will be placed in.

This must be more of a home theater/movie effects thing. It seems to be a bit too complicated or overkill for what all exists on the majority of music recordings that only need to satisfy for stereo.

 

[davidscott]

I went from 10 ft 14-gauge to 8 ft 12-gauge 99% copper in a 2-channel stereo and I can't tell any difference. At least I'm ok with the upgrade it lets me sleep better at night.

 

[JerryLove]

I went from 10 ft 14-gauge to 8 ft 12-gauge 99% copper in a 2-channel stereo and I can't tell any difference. At least I'm ok with the upgrade it lets me sleep better at night.

Wire Size​	2 ohm load​	4 ohm load​	6 ohm load​	8 ohm load​
22 AWG​	3 feet max​	6 feet max​	9 feet max​	12 feet max​
20 AWG​	5 feet max​	10 feet max​	15 feet max​	20 feet max​
18 AWG​	8 feet max​	16 feet max​	24 feet max​	32 feet max​
16 AWG​	12 feet max​	24 feet max​	36 feet max​	48 feet max​
14 AWG​	20 feet max​	40 feet max​	60 feet**​	80 feet**​
12 AWG​	30 feet max​	60 feet**​	90 feet**​	120 feet**​
10 AWG​	50 feet max​	100 feet**​	150 feet**​	200 feet**​

Speaker Wire

roger-russell.com

** For speaker wires over 50ft:
An article was published in Audio, July 1994 titled "Speaker cables: Measurements Vs Psycho-acoustic data" by Edgar Villchur. The psycho-acoustic data shows that for pure tones at 16kHz the smallest average detectable difference in level is 3.05 dB. He also indicates: "It can be predicted that at a given level the just noticeable difference will be increased by a significantly greater amount by the masking effect of musical sound below 10 kHz.". The findings were based on individuals 20 to 24 years old that had normal hearing to 20 kHz. This is what might be called the best of conditions for hearing differences.

However, as we age, our sensitivity to high frequencies decreases dramatically. The chart is from Modern Sound Reproduction by Harry F. Olson. It shows the average hearing loss Vs age for men and women at frequencies from 250 Hz to 8000 Hz. This means that for a man at age 35, sensitivity is down about 11 dB at 8000 Hz. For a woman at that age, sensitivity is down only about 5 dB. We can infer that sensitivity is down a whole lot more at 20kHz. (http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#longerwires)

 

[Verdinut]

I went from 10 ft 14-gauge to 8 ft 12-gauge 99% copper in a 2-channel stereo and I can't tell any difference. At least I'm ok with the upgrade it lets me sleep better at night.

It's only a question of resistance. With such short wire runs, the difference between the two cable sizes is negligible and obviously cannot be heard by you and anyone.

Resistance per meter: AWG 12: .00521 Ohm - AWG 14: .00829 Ohm