JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
You're comparing government paid health care when I posted the total cost of health care. The government isn't going to be able to pay the total cost on its own without tax increases. In addition, the cost to be the sole administrator will cause the cost to increase because of additional staffing and infrastructure.
I covered both.

The *TOTAL COST* of helathcare in Germany, per person, is $5,182 , not all of which is paid by the German government.
The *CURRENT GOVERNMENT SPENDING* per person in the US is $5,213

If we could magically become Germany, and if the government paid 100% of costs for every American, taxes would go down by $31/year

Germany's population is about 1/4 that of the US and the two countries are very different in other ways, so a "we should be more like them" argument is futile.
That's not what I said we should do.

But your assertion is still silly. If that's the criteria, implement on the state level. There is no state with a higher population than Germany.

The systems only improve with higher populations. There are other differences that would matter (population density for example); but your argument is specious.

But, as mentioned, I'm not saying we could or should magically switch to exactly Germany's system... I'm using their system to show that a universal healthcare system can be, not only <50% the cost of our current system, but literally less than our government is already spending to offer less coverage to less than half the population.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
The internet has become something that could never have been imagined by DARPA.
Yes. That's one of the great things about government. They can fund and create seeds that no one would invest in on their own that reap rewards far beyond the government program itself.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
This isn't really correct, Jerry, because the internet as we know it being a "product of government" is a gross exaggeration.
You then follow that claim with a long explanation on how the internet is founded on government-funded projects.

You are also being pedantic given the real thrust of the post you are responding to.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Well, just to be picky, you must have misunderstood him and he is correct.
The ER is already free to people who have no money.
It is free for them, in the end.
He didn't state that it is free for all who go there.
And, yes you are also correct, others pay for it in the end. :)
You have understood what I was saying. Thank you. :)

I'll add that when I said "I think I'd rather have them somewhere cheaper" I was referencing exactly that cost.

This is literally the first sentence I posted on this thread:
"It's not Sanders that is claiming things are free. That's a straw-man propped up but the opposition and even believed, at least when commented on without thought, by some supporters."

And I keep seeing it propped up over my own statements. This behavior seems so hard-wired in some people that it's confusing.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You then follow that claim with a long explanation on how the internet is founded on government-funded projects.

You are also being pedantic given the real thrust of the post you are responding to.
The internet was not founded on government funded projects. It uses some protocols from a government project. Isn't it embarrassing to be simultaneously ignorant and assertive? Or are you just oblivious?
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
The internet was not founded on government funded projects. It uses some protocols from a government project. Isn't it embarrassing to be simultaneously ignorant and assertive? Or are you just oblivious?
Ahh. We are insulting again. In that case: I am at least capable of math... a deficiency this thread has illustrated in your posts.

It's strange that you want to start this discussion when you've abandoned the thread's thesis.

Even if all it did was use core routing protocols from a government project, my statement would still be valid... but it does more than that. Computer science was an emerging discipline in the 1950s, in great part, to government investment in computer technology. Indeed: the first build computer ENIAC was a project of the US government.

The transistor was invented by Bell Telephone Labs, which was founded on a French Government award and was researching under funding from the US Government.

Packet switching (a foundation of the internet) is out of the UK Government's National Physics Labratory; which was also the testbed for research. This was picked up by the US Government program for ARAPNET using mathmatical underpinnings from an employee of the state college UCLA.

The first "internet" was a government funded program to connect government funded supercomputers at government and government subsidized universities.

Hell: the www (which appears in the early 90s) comes out of CERN: A Swiss Government program.

Shall I go on? Are you really this ignorant of basic computer history?
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Ahh. We are insulting again. In that case: I am at least capable of math... a deficiency this thread has illustrated in your posts.

It's strange that you want to start this discussion when you've abandoned the thread's thesis.

Even if all it did was use core routing protocols from a government project, my statement would still be valid... but it does more than that. Computer science was an emerging discipline in the 1950s, in great part, to government investment in computer technology. Indeed: the first build computer ENIAC was a project of the US government.

The transistor was invented by Bell Telephone Labs, which was founded on a French Government award and was researching under funding from the US Government.

Packet switching (a foundation of the internet) is out of the UK Government's National Physics Labratory; which was also the testbed for research. This was picked up by the US Government program for ARAPNET using mathmatical underpinnings from an employee of the state college UCLA.

The first "internet" was a government funded program to connect government funded supercomputers at government and government subsidized universities.

Hell: the www (which appears in the early 90s) comes out of CERN: A Swiss Government program.

Shall I go on? Are you really this ignorant of basic computer history?
Google is not serving you well, Jerry. You should stick to insurance. You don't know what you're talking about. You're twisting the facts to suit your wrong-headed conclusions.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Google is not serving you well, Jerry. You should stick to insurance. You don't know what you're talking about. You're twisting the facts to suit your wrong-headed conclusions.
Says the guy that didn't put up a single fact in dispute.

Let's go with my last fact.
Was the World Wide Web (an information system where documents and other web resources are identified by Uniform Resource Locators, which may be interlinked by hypertext, and are accessible over the Internet. ) invented by English scientist Tim Berners-Lee ?

Did he write the first web browser?

When he did these things, was it as part of his work at CERN?

Is CERN a government entity?

Feel free to cite which of those is answerable with "no".

You seem to love to make claims, but not to support those claims. In this case, you assert I'm twisting facts... ok. I've picked a fact from my previous post... let's see who is twisting it.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Says the guy that didn't put up a single fact in dispute.

Let's go with my last fact.
Was the World Wide Web (an information system where documents and other web resources are identified by Uniform Resource Locators, which may be interlinked by hypertext, and are accessible over the Internet. ) invented by English scientist Tim Berners-Lee ?

Did he write the first web browser?

When he did these things, was it as part of his work at CERN?

Is CERN a government entity?

Feel free to cite which of those is answerable with "no".

You seem to love to make claims, but not to support those claims. In this case, you assert I'm twisting facts... ok. I've picked a fact from my previous post... let's see who is twisting it.
You're still twisting the facts and my responses. From your original post I responded to:

In fact: this lovely internet was the product of government.
As I've explained, this isn't a fact. This is your incorrect interpretation of a fact.

Your Bell Labs comment I actually had to look up, because I knew that Alexander Graham Bell founded it, but I didn't know that he used the money from a French prize he won to found the Labs. But they weren't founded or funded by the French government. I'll admit though, your silly wrongness gave me my first chuckle of the day.

Stick to healthcare. Although with the stuff you make up about computer networking I'm not sure I'd trust anything you say about insurance either.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
You're still twisting the facts and my responses. From your original post I responded to:

As I've explained, this isn't a fact. This is your incorrect interpretation of a fact.
Pretty sure you are twisting my claim to prop up a straw man (again).

Your Bell Labs comment I actually had to look up, because I knew that Alexander Graham Bell founded it, but I didn't know that he used the money from a French prize he won to found the Labs. But they weren't founded or funded by the French government. I'll admit though, your silly wrongness gave me my first chuckle of the day.
You did it again.

You asserted that all my claims were false and then ran screaming from an actual example.

Let's go with my last fact.
Was the World Wide Web (an information system where documents and other web resources are identified by Uniform Resource Locators, which may be interlinked by hypertext, and are accessible over the Internet. ) invented by English scientist Tim Berners-Lee ?

Did he write the first web browser?

When he did these things, was it as part of his work at CERN?

Is CERN a government entity?

Feel free to cite which of those is answerable with "no".

You seem to love to make claims, but not to support those claims. In this case, you assert I'm twisting facts... ok. I've picked a fact from my previous post... let's see who is twisting it.

Stick to healthcare. Although with the stuff you make up about computer networking I'm not sure I'd trust anything you say about insurance either.
I'm not sure why you insist on vague lies. If I were doing so, it would be trivial to call me out on it (see all the examples of me doing that to you this thread).

And I'd love to stick to Healthcare, as it's the topic. Let's wander back to that then.

I will quote you.

You said more money "Costs go up"
You said fewer hands "healthcare insurance industry workers (~500,000 of them) who will just be out of work."
You did say less income "healthcare workers (they'll have to take a ~25% pay cut)"

It's not possible to give more money to fewer people while paying individuals less.


sing some made up numbers.

Right now we are spending $1000 (cost) to pay 10 people (workers). Ignoring pay disparity, each person makes $100.

You are saying this new plan will pay $1500 (costs go up) to 5 people (jobs go down) giving each of them $75 (pay goes down).

You realize that's mathematically impossible, right?

$75 x 5 = $375 (costs would go down)
$1500 / 5 = $300 (pay would go up).

There's no way to do both. And it's not the numbers I've chosen; but the direction. You can insert any values you want as long as they move in the direction you said they would, the math fails.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Let's go with my last fact.
Was the World Wide Web (an information system where documents and other web resources are identified by Uniform Resource Locators, which may be interlinked by hypertext, and are accessible over the Internet. ) invented by English scientist Tim Berners-Lee ?
I brought up the WWW, not you.

Did he write the first web browser?
I said that.

When he did these things, was it as part of his work at CERN?
I said that too.

Is CERN a government entity?
No. CERN is a nation-independent agency in Switzerland funded by "member states". It is not an agency of a government.

Feel free to cite which of those is answerable with "no".
Done.

You seem to love to make claims, but not to support those claims. In this case, you assert I'm twisting facts... ok. I've picked a fact from my previous post... let's see who is twisting it.
You can't even remember your posts versus mine.

I'm not sure why you insist on vague lies. If I were doing so, it would be trivial to call me out on it (see all the examples of me doing that to you this thread).
Done. You don't know the difference between some layers of a networking protocol stack and the internet. And you still don't know what you're talking about.

And I'd love to stick to Healthcare, as it's the topic. Let's wander back to that then.

I will quote you.

You said more money "Costs go up"
You said fewer hands "healthcare insurance industry workers (~500,000 of them) who will just be out of work."
You did say less income "healthcare workers (they'll have to take a ~25% pay cut)"

It's not possible to give more money to fewer people while paying individuals less.
Net costs go up because the income from premiums, co-pays, and deductibles goes away. Been there, said that. Where do you think that money is going to come from? Right now Medicare is, what, a $580B+ USG budget line item, and Medicare has deductibles, co-pays, and premiums. The Sanders bill has none, for anyone. So the cost of the medical insurance program overall GOES UP. You are arguing that it doesn't really go up on a cost to society basis, because the nation as a whole pays, but that's only true if people don't demand more services because they're free to them (but not to the nation). This is basic macro economics. Unless the service level to individuals goes down, the cost of medical care per individual will go up.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
No. CERN is a nation-independent agency in Switzerland funded by "member states". It is not an agency of a government.
This is how you are arguing this isn't the result of governments?!?

Here's the member states.
Belgium, Denmark, France, the Federal Republic of Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, Austria (1959), Spain (1961-1969, re-joined 1983), Portugal (1985), Finland (1991), Poland (1991), Czechoslovak Republic (1992), Hungary (1992), Bulgaria (1999), Israel (2014), Romania (2016) and Serbia (2019). The Czech Republic, and Slovak Republic

Those are governments.

You can't even remember your posts versus mine.
I really can't... but fortunately, I know how to work a scroll wheel; which seems more than you are capable of.

What are you now pretended I asserted was said by one of us but actually said by another? Feel encouraged to list post number.

Done. You don't know the difference between some layers of a networking protocol stack and the internet. And you still don't know what you're talking about.
Yes. I also know the difference between

I addressed that in post #363
"You then follow that claim with a long explanation on how the internet is founded on government-funded projects.
You are also being pedantic given the real thrust of the post you are responding to."

This is a semantic argument, and thereby a logical fallacy.

Net costs go up because the income from premiums, co-pays, and deductibles goes away.
Premiums, co-pays, and deductibles are "costs" already.

So the cost of the medical insurance program overall GOES UP. "
Done. You don't know the difference between costs and costs to a some portion of the medical system.

You are arguing that it doesn't really go up on a cost to society basis, because the nation as a whole pays, but that's only true if people don't demand more services because they're free to them (but not to the nation). This is basic macro economics. Unless the service level to individuals goes down, the cost of medical care per individual will go up.
There are so many falsehoods in that little sub-paragraph.

Some things that can lower overall costs without lowering services.
1) That layoff you say will happen.
2) That loss of per-person income you say will happen.
3) Better prices on, for example, drugs and products, as we see in the non-US first-world.
4) A movement from more expensive services (like treating someone in renal failure) to less expensive services (like treatment to prevent renal failure).
5) Economy of scale resulting from better utilization.

And yes, utilization can go down... as people get preventative care.

That whole "If you make it cheaper more people will use it" is an assault on the poor and form of "us vs them" prejudice.

Germany doesn't have half the per-capita costs we do because they use half the services.

No matter where you set the costs to make a given income "have skin in the game to limit but not block access to care", people above that income will consume as much as they feel like and people below that will be denied care.

But even if, despite all of that, costs did go up. OK. That's fine with me. I'm tired of taxes that go into things useless to the population at large. Easing human suffering is about the best use of my tax dollar I can think of because I am not a monster of some sort.

Not to mention the economic boosts to a healthier population.

Net costs go up because
Where does that money go to?

Remember, you have fewer employees (your claim) and each employee makes less (your claim).

So if more is being paid, where does it go?!?

Do you even math bro?
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I really can't... but fortunately, I know how to work a scroll wheel; which seems more than you are capable of.

What are you now pretended I asserted was said by one of us but actually said by another? Feel encouraged to list post number.
#353

The World-Wide Web wasn't invented until the late 1980s, by an Englishman named Tim Berners-Lee, while working at CERN in Europe, who led the definition of HTTP (HyperText Transfer Protocol), that web browsers use, and the first web browser. There's a huge long list of technologies and protocols that came after that, most defined by engineers in private industry who were financed by private investment, and they collaborated in a number of international standards groups.
You've worn me out again with your silly arguments.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Speaks to the same thing I later spoke about; but is not something one of us said that I then misattributed.

I wasn't referencing your comment. I was making a statement on the WWW as an example of the importance of governments in the creation of the internet. I literally had not read that far down in 353 until you referenced it above.

You've worn me out again with your silly arguments.
It's your pattern

You assert BS
I call you out on it.
You insult me and attempt to change the subject.
I hold you to support your BS.
You say you are tired of me and never support your BS.

Later you put out new BS and the cycle beings again.

You cannot
1) increase the money being spent,
2) decrease the number of people getting that money, and
3) have each person get less.

To increase spending you must either spend it on more people or increase the amount the average person gets.
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
This says it all.
I think this actually says it all:

It's your pattern

You assert BS
I call you out on it.
You insult me and attempt to change the subject.
I hold you to support your BS.
You say you are tired of me and never support your BS.

Later you put out new BS and the cycle beings again.

You cannot
1) increase the money being spent,
2) decrease the number of people getting that money, and
3) have each person get less.

To increase spending you must either spend it on more people or increase the amount the average person gets.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Samurai
Another thing that keeps getting mentioned by the right and then glossed over because it hurts their cause...

Right now, people without insurance, or who otherwise cannot afford full access to medical care, get emergency care and those costs are passed on to people who *do* pay full price.

They mention that. Here's the parts they gloss over.
1) This hurts even the people in that group as you can look at outcomes (infant mortality among uninsured and under insured for example) and they are bad.
2) It is, for all intents and purposes a fixed tax.

Lets say "SUM (Unpaid Bills)" / "number of people who *are* paying bills" = $2000.

So when Jeff Bezos pays his premiums, he's getting charged $2000... the kind of money he might spend taking his private jet to eat at a favored resturaunt.

When I pay my premiums, I'm getting charged $2000... the sort of money I might budget for a summer vacation or home improvement project.

And when a guy making $20k a year pays his premium; he's giving up 10% of his income to this tax.

Is there really anyone advocating that the appropriate way to tax things is to take a fixed dollar value and make everyone pay it.

I'm sorry.. not everyone. Only the people not only capable of getting coverage but also responsible enough to do so. When 10 of your neighbors decide to skip insurance, and one gets catastrophically ill, you are splitting his bill between you and him while the 9 others watch bemused.

That's reasonable... right?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes. That's one of the great things about government. They can fund and create seeds that no one would invest in on their own that reap rewards far beyond the government program itself.
At the time, the general population didn't need anything like the internet at the very beginning and most wouldn't have known what to do with it if it had been a public 'thing', anyway. Its beginning was in 1959, long before any kind of high speed wired communication existed for anyone other than research and military.
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Samurai
I'm not going to weigh in either way because, let's face it, nobody's (sound) mind has ever been changed by a rant on an internet forum. :rolleyes:
1582293322663.png

That being said, @JerryLove you sound (write) exactly like I how I imagined your avatar would! :p
 

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