O

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic Chief
Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democratic candidate for President in 2020.

Medicare for all - Health care is a right.

No new taxes on the middle-class.

I'm in, you should be too.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
No thanks. Not today, not any day.

I've heard this story before. You see that small group of people over there? They're responsible for your lot in life. If we just confiscate their wealth, force them to break up and sell off their businesses, demonize them in the popular press and with propaganda, and if you support me I'll make sure you get what you deserve and they'll pay for it. I'm just fighting for you. [puke]

And that ill-conceived wealth tax to fund it all. So the minute it would pass Congress and she signs it the value of the US equity markets and much of the real estate that the tax would be applied to would go down by, the consensus is, about 25%, I think a lot more. The wealthy would probably stop buying assets in the target markets, so the valuations come in lower. Remember, there are much less than 1,000 billionaires in the US to tax, so conspiracies are practical. That means the revenues from the wealth tax would go down, but the cost of the promised programs wouldn't, so then there'd be a massive deficit which would have to funded, or massive inflation. Assuming Warren doesn't want inflation to reduce her own wealth, the tax base would have to be broadened, probably to include every old geezer with more than a million dollars in assets, which might mean you, because after the top 0.01% old geezers hold most of the country's wealth. And with good reason, they've had a lifetime to save for retirement. Remember, there are trillions in 401K and IRA accounts to tax, and most Americans don't have a million dollars. I can hear the arguments already.

Then there's the valuation problem with the wealth tax. The wealthy would hire massive numbers of highly-paid brilliant people to find workarounds to the new tax or lower valuations, while the government would be arguing back with the more typical GS-14s and GS-15s they are allowed to hire. It would be like bringing butter knives to a gun fight. How many here have been successful arguing against real estate valuations for property taxes and won? It is not difficult, and real estate valuation is simple by comparison to wealth in total.

And all of that health care you think you're getting for free? Well, get in line. A lot of doctors are likely to ignore the system, like they do now with Medicare, and go into concierge medicine. Meaning, they don't take insurance, because they want more for their services than Medicare pays, and Medicare rates are built into the assumptions of the Medicare For All plan. Or are we going to make independence illegal? And those hospitals you need to get treated by, some large fraction, certainly more than 25%, go out of business, and the ones that die are mostly in rural areas. And all of those new drugs you like? The Medicare For All bill includes provisions for the government to dictate prices and, if the drug companies refuse, the patents can be confiscated, licensed to competitors, the renumeration to the inventing company is determined by a government-appointed court, and the inventor has to provide research materials about the drugs to the licensees. So why would pharmaceutical industry investment stay high? I think it'll fall precipitously. I wouldn't invest.

The richest family in the country, probably the world, is the Walton family, poster children for unearned wealth. Their total net worth is about $200 billion. Confiscate it all and you still have only, what, $30 trillion or so to go? And that's just for Medicare for All.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Spartan
I agree that some form of universal health care in the USA is greatly needed.

But I also agree that Warren's proposal to pay for it won't come close to making it possible.

Universal health care cannot be successful without taking on the excessive political & financial clout of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries. That means defeating the politicians in Washington that they've purchased.
And all of those new drugs you like? The Medicare For All bill includes provisions for the government to dictate prices and, if the drug companies refuse, the patents can be confiscated, licensed to competitors, the renumeration to the inventing company is determined by a government-appointed court, and the inventor has to provide research materials about the drugs to the licensees. So why would pharmaceutical industry investment stay high? I think it'll fall precipitously. I wouldn't invest.
Irv – your protests go too far. Big pharma has for a long time abused & distorted the existing patent laws, getting their hired Washington pols to extent patent law far beyond it's original intentions. That abuse is among the major reasons for excessive drug prices in the US, big pharma's excessive profits, and for the difficulties our health care system now has.

I don't see Elizabeth Warren, or any other present politician, directly facing that problem.
 
O

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic Chief
England, France, Norway, Canada, Sweden, Australia, the list goes on and on of developed countries who have implemented universal health care for its citizens.

Whether it be single-payer or two-tier, we need to look at other nations, learn from them and create our own system. The US needs to change how it views health care and start seeing it not as an option, but as a necessity like education for example. Medicare For All will meet this need.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I agree that some form of universal health care in the USA is greatly needed.

But I also agree that Warren's proposal to pay for it won't come close to making it possible.
I think the US healthcare system is broken too. What we're having is a difference in opinion about what the fix should look like.

Universal health care cannot be successful without taking on the excessive political & financial clout of the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries. That means defeating the politicians in Washington that they've purchased.
Change is necessary. The question: is Medicare For All and Warren's funding proposal the answer? I think not.

Irv – your protests go too far. Big pharma has for a long time abused & distorted the existing patent laws, getting their hired Washington pols to extent patent law far beyond it's original intentions. That abuse is among the major reasons for excessive drug prices in the US, big pharma's excessive profits, and for the difficulties our health care system now has.

I don't see Elizabeth Warren, or any other present politician, directly facing that problem.
I agree that the Pharma companies have abused the patent system. But again, the Medicare For All proposal is a stupid answer. For one thing, it isn't really Medicare, it is universal free healthcare for anyone on US soil without deductibles or premiums, promised to be paid for by "someone else". That is what I'm arguing against. I'm not arguing for the status quo.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
England, France, Norway, Canada, Sweden, Australia, the list goes on and on of developed countries who have implemented universal health care for its citizens.

Whether it be single-payer or two-tier, we need to look at other nations, learn from them and create our own system. The US needs to change how it views health care and start seeing it not as an option, but as a necessity like education for example. Medicare For All will meet this need.
Have you looked at these other systems? They are not free and paid for by someone else, they are supported by stiff taxation, many have premiums, and most have co-pays.

Medicare For All is a scam.
 
O

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic Chief
Have you looked at these other systems? They are not free and paid for by someone else, they are supported by stiff taxation, many have premiums, and most have co-pays.
Have you looked at our private health care system? It is not free and it is paid for mainly by the employee. It is supported by stiff premiums, huge deductibles and large co-pays. And worst of all, denial of coverage.

Medicare For All is an improvement.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Have you looked at our private health care system?
I'm insured by the private health care system.

It is not free and it is paid for mainly by the employee.
That statement is false. It's more like 80/20, employer/employee:


It is supported by stiff premiums, huge deductibles and large co-pays. And worst of all, denial of coverage.
For some people deductibles are high. We're in a high-deductible plan from Aetna with an HSA, and our maximum family out of pocket expense per year is $7,900 for in-network providers. Is that high? For a lot of people it would be, but for us it made sense because HSA contributions are tax-exempt, which is like a 35% discount on $6500 per year, and premiums are a lot lower. For millions of people their plans are better, especially many local and state government workers, unionized workers, big company workers, and especially those in the competitive high-tech industry. I don't know what Amazon warehouse, Walmart store employees, and Starbucks employees are offered.

Denial of coverage is the one legitimate point you have. While I and my immediate family have never experienced this, not even once, the data shows that the national claim denial rate is 20-25%, and for individually purchased plans it's often 40% or more. I'm not sure what to say to that, other than it's time for fines and jail time for executives who run businesses that way. For ACA plans there is apparently an appeal process, but this is still a travesty nonetheless.

Medicare For All is an improvement.
Certainly not as Queen Elizabeth and Comrade Bernie have defined it. But I am in favor of having a public option, so long as the premium is commensurate with the cost, or subsidized based on income a la the ACA.
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
Have you looked at these other systems? They are not free and paid for by someone else, they are supported by stiff taxation, many have premiums, and most have co-pays.

Medicare For All is a scam.
No, universal health care is certainly not free but it is far less expensive (overall) than US health care and does not have a large part of the population without cover.
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
...
That statement is false. It's more like 80/20, employer/employee:

...
You are paying for the 80% employer contribution with a lower salary, so you could consider the employer contribution a tax on your salary.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
No, universal health care is certainly not free but it is far less expensive (overall) than US health care and does not have a large part of the population without cover.
We've been over this before in other threads. Your examples are from countries with far smaller and less diverse populations than the US, or countries with massive sovereign wealth funds, and these countries' drug pricing are subsidized by the US being an open market for drugs, and by the US defense umbrella.
 
O

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic Chief
I can still remember all the Republicans when I was a kid complaining about LBJ's Medicare, Medicaid plan.

Then they became hypocrites when they all turned 65 and signed up for it. Typical.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You are paying for the 80% employer contribution with a lower salary, so you could consider the employer contribution a tax on your salary.
That's socialist bullshit. The employer contribution is better for employees, since benefits in the US are not subject to income taxes, and the employers get a deduction because they're considered part of overall employee compensation.

I can't speak for any other country, but in the US if you really want a program screwed up, let a government run it. Free enterprise isn't perfect, but the profit motive. open markets, and competition generally increase the quality of services. And you know my feeling about modeling the US after Europe, which I think is an economic mess.
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
We've been over this before in other threads. Your examples are from countries with far smaller and less diverse populations than the US, or countries with massive sovereign wealth funds, and these countries' drug pricing are subsidized by the US being an open market for drugs, and by the US defense umbrella.
I don't exactly recall your arguments completely convincing as France, Germany, UK and Japan has universal health care. If US has such an open market for drugs there seems to be some very serious market failure with respect to price competition, but the fact is that we don't let the pharmaceutical industry exploit us the the extent allowed in USA.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I don't exactly recall your arguments completely convincing as France, Germany, UK and Japan has universal health care. If US has such an open market for drugs there seems to be some very serious market failure with respect to price competition, but the fact is that we don't let the pharmaceutical industry exploit us the the extent allowed in USA.
There is price competition in the US once patents expire and "generic" versions of drugs are available. Sometimes the patent holders prevent generics from emerging by profit-sharing with other companies to artificially extend patent life, by getting them to agree not to produce generics. (This is what Swerd is talking about.). Patents are, as you know, government enforced monopolies, and for the most part companies can charge whatever they please in the US. For example, there's a new class of injectable statins available (PCSK9 inhibitors) that are purported to have few fewer side effects than other statins do, but I'm told they cost about $100K per year, and many insurance companies won't approve them except in exceptional situations. So what would you do? Force the price down, as Medicare for All proposes? Then when R&D investment falls, because drug R&D is lengthy and risky so investors want the promise of big returns, what then? The government does drug research? I know everything looks so simple when you're sitting in Europe and you can just dictate to foreign companies who want to participate in your markets, like China does, but it isn't that simple in the US.

Here's an excerpt from a report on the Euro Pharma industry:

In 2017 North America accounted for 48.1% of world pharmaceutical sales compared with 22.2% for Europe. According to IQVIA data (MIDAS May 2018),64.1% of sales of new medicines launched during the period 2012-2017 were on the US mar- ket, compared with 18.1% on the European mar- ket (top 5 markets).


And remember, the EC population and GDP is larger than that of the US.

Edit: Sorry for the out-dated information. While the EC population is indeed larger than that of the US (514 million versus 325 million),the EC GDP is somewhat smaller, $18.8T versus $20.5T. Yet another example of European economic superiority, not.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I've read it the day she published it. She is deluding you into thinking she can pay for it by just taxing the very wealthy. That is dumb, and shame on you for being supportive of her demonizing the successful. Her cost model is profoundly flawed, since care for millions are added, all deductibles and co-pays are eliminated, and the difference exceeds the profits of the entire healthcare industry. The plan is a scam, as is her wealth tax. But she does make Biden look good by comparison. She even makes Trump look good by comparison.
 
O

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic Chief
She is ahead of Biden in the polls. And, better read it again.
 
O

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic Chief
Nonsense. I don't want civil war, I just want affordable universal health care.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
First off, I am neither a democrat nor republican, rather an independent. One will never open their eyes until they realize. 95% of all our politicians are crooked. They few goods there are, are not enough to change anything. And will continue to focus on nonsense one party vs the other, to keep the public distracted from the real issues. Democrats always seem to have these wild and crazy ideas, and will lie and cheat just to get the vote and maintain power. Republicans seem to have common sense ideas for a normal law abiding society, but then cower down when it comes to fighting for those ideas. Behind the scenes the majority of the politicians only care about lining their pockets. And couldn't give two cents about the general public.

All that being said, anyone who could take anything Warrens says seriously is not taken an honest look at the person she is or who has always been. We had a great health care system till Obama stepped in and messed it up. Causing most people premiums to skyrocket 400% to 700%. When you mandate health insurance, you do nothing but now give insurance companies to raise the rates. After all the know you have to have it. We have always had a system where those who could not afford it could walk into an emergency room and get treatment. But now with all these mandates in place, hospitals and medical companies , can now charge astronomical prices for every little thing. Competition is what keeps price down where they can be afforded.
As for the other countries you spoke of, look more closely and you see that the health care system you spoke of and want, is exactly why they are slowly going bankrupt.
We can not afford a universal healthcare medicare/medicade system for all. Then more and more people will just keep the flooding into the country. Even though they try and tell you there is only 350 million people in America, that number is based on the census taken. And even Obama's own administration admitted if we are luck one in four fills out the census form. So simple math should tell you, we have well over a billion population.
People need to stop and wake up. They are brainwashing a lot of the population. All the information is out there you just have to be willing to find it. Open your eyes and your mind. Look at most of the college kids today, with an average IQ of 120 (so sad) no nothing of history or how the world works. Praise socialism and mistrust capitalism. I don't care what side of the isle you fall, even you can not see the left has been brainwashing the children for the last 30 yrs, you need to reevaluate your mental capabilities. They took Hitlers playbook and used it to their advantage. Start young, and you can make the minds believe anything you want, no matter how Ludacris it may be. On the flip side, our conservative politicians new this was happening and let it happen. They could not or did not realize how quick and successful they dems would be in their plan. Ok, I could go on and on, however I will end my rant here. Just remember, without open dialogue, we will end up in another civil war sooner rather than later.
Talk about wild and crazy ideas....
 

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