Measurements not Revealing Significant Differences Between AVRs and AVPs

m. zillch

m. zillch

Junior Audioholic
I modified my previous post to show the red column in the image was not done by me and appeared in his original image because that was what was being reviewed. The fact that it is even highlighted is immaterial to my point. The SINAD numbers across the top are what are pertinent.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I modified my previous post to show the red column in the image was not done by me and appeared in his original image. The fact that it is even highlighted is immaterial to my point. The SINAD numbers across the top are what are pertinent.
Okay, understood, but those were facts, assuming measurements don't lie. If he were to say best sounding amp or something like that, then I probably would take issue, but to refer to "those listed on the THD+N at 5 W output column bar graph", I don't think there's much to object to. It specifically refer to measurements of that particular metric, that out of the so many power amps measured on ASR, the listed ones are the "Best", by that metric alone.

It is no different than if the likes of caranddriver magazine's list of the fastest cars measured by 0-100km acceleration time, as long as the magazine is not saying those are the "Best cars period.."

I guess you and I have slightly different interpretations of what's on ASR, that's normal too.

In my opinion, Amir could have done better in his presentation in terms of the written narrative (sometimes just a matter of his choice of words, besides the naturally objective measurements, but I have to say he, and Gene, are among the very best if not the best, in doing what they have been doing. They both measured the relevant metric to the level of details that allows us to appreciate how much the DUTs exceeded (or below) the generally accepted threshold of audibility, and both would also, occasionally, mentioned that some of those non SOTA performance in metrics such as SINAD/THD+N, FR, Jetter wouldn't mean there audible issues, with remarks such as "scoring 100 dB with again, inaudible distortion ".
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Junior Audioholic
It specifically refer to measurements of that particular metric,
No, his chart uses the term "Best Amplifiers" and does not stipulate "Best in regards to SINAD measurements" however by my read that's exactly what he means: Best in regards to SINAD under his standard 5w/4Ω conditions.
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Junior Audioholic
UPDATE: The supplied text associated with that chart of "Best Amplifiers (@5w/4Ω)" also never utters the term "SINAD", because it is obvious to his readers that's the metric which here ranges from 101-120) and only mentions the reviewed product's "performance" (and that of its close relative, "LA90 non-Discrete") are perched "on top of all other amplifiers ever tested":

1760720239160.png
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
The music I listen to has a huge dynamic range and yes, the noise floor of the 7705 and 7706 was easily audible at the listening position and the noise floor of the AV 10 is not. It does not take much noise to affect the quality of low level pianissimo sounds, even if you can't identify it through the signal. You can't hear a sound from all my 18 Quad amp channels even in a totally silent room, and that is the standard for quality equipment. So, now I have an AVP than is a proper match for my Quad power amps. There is no doubt about it, that the AV 10 is the first multi channel AVP I have had that is of commensurate quality to the rest of my system.
Live music may have a huge dynamic range, most recordings don't. Thought you had claimed you had no audible issues with your older pre-pros, tho. I still tend to think it's your imagination than anything particularly remarkable.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Live music may have a huge dynamic range, most recordings don't. Thought you had claimed you had no audible issues with your older pre-pros, tho. I still tend to think it's your imagination than anything particularly remarkable.
Well I suppose I just rationalized as at the time I bought the previous ones, they were the best available. it was stupid to buy the 7706 though.

It is not imagination. The other units did a very poor job with Dolby Atmos streams compared to the AV 10. It is also great to have no audible sound in a quiet room with no signal. To me that is a plus.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well I suppose I just rationalized as at the time I bought the previous ones, they were the best available. it was stupid to buy the 7706 though.

It is not imagination. The other units did a very poor job with Dolby Atmos streams compared to the AV 10. It is also great to have no audible sound in a quiet room with no signal. To me that is a plus.
Rationalization sounds about right. Not particularly stupid to buy the 7706, you may just have had some poor consumer luck (as we all are subject to, no brand is immune from a few bad apples). You haven't compared directly so hard to take your comments more seriously than the guy who bought more expensive cables, or optical disc player, or turntable, etc.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Rationalization sounds about right. Not particularly stupid to buy the 7706, you may just have had some poor consumer luck (as we all are subject to, no brand is immune from a few bad apples). You haven't compared directly so hard to take your comments more seriously than the guy who bought more expensive cables, or optical disc player, or turntable, etc.
Well turntables certainly do not sound the same, not even close. That tends to be a feature of mechanical transducers. For instance Studer tape heads do not sound the same as Bogen tape heads. One microphone will sound different from another.
There is one caveat, in that you may not tell, because the sound of the speakers is so dominant they reproduce their errants ways over everything they play. They are far more sonically aberant speakers than truly neutral ones.

You are not going to AB an AVP as there are too many inputs and outputs to switch. That would be an impossible task.

However major differences are another matter. And in this case we are not talking about splitting hairs differences.

The BPO anniversary dics are a case in point. On the last rigs they were so bad I put them away out of sight. With AV 10 it is totally different. For a start they play at least 10 db louder than before, but that is the least of it. They now sound absolutely glorious this is in no way a minute difference. I even had correspondence with the engineers about it, and they stood by their work. So I will have to get in touch with them and again to correct the record. Again we are not talking about splitting hairs difference here, but a chasm.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
No, his chart uses the term "Best Amplifiers" and does not stipulate "Best in regards to SINAD measurements"
If you insist on taking things out of context that's your choice. To me, people should read the whole review, Amir usually have text narratives in each graphs, and as such I would think that the narrative pertain to the specific graph mostly, if not only.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
UPDATE: The supplied text associated with that chart of "Best Amplifiers" also never utters the term "SINAD" and only mentions the reviewed product's "performance" (and that of its close relative, "LA90 non-Discrete") are perched "on top of all other amplifiers ever tested":

View attachment 76331
C'mon, are you taking it out of context now? The graph clearly shows SINAD measured at 5 W output into a 4 ohm test load, it is obvious, also obvious that the "Best Amplifiers" referred to those measured at least 101 dB SINAD, or -101 dB THD+N for those who prefer THD+N based on that particular SINAD measurements. That does not mean anyone, including Amir, would conclude that just because those Amir considered the "Best Amplifiers" are the Best Amplifiers in all metrics he used for his measurements.

Amir is an EE, and should have the knowledge to know that he should not declare amplifiers that did >100 dB SINAD at 5 W output into a 4 ohm resistor test load would make them the "Best" overall!! Give the man some credit that he is not ignorant and/or stupid. What if that same amp, measured 20 dB SINAD at 50 W into 8 ohms with test frequency of 2 kHz instead of 1 kHz, or FR shows 10 dB roll off from 10 kHz, would he consider that amp is one of the best amps he measure? The fact that he used so many other metrics, including FR, frequency dependent distortions, cross talks, multitone input, SNR, DR, reactive load tests etc., in his bench tests, should make it clear that he would not consider an amp the best if it only scores well on one metric.

You seem to get fixated on the "text" in that one graph/chart of many other graphs/charts , having been participating on forums for so long, I am used to agree to disagree anyway. So, I guess I will move on to other topics. Have a nice weekend!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
the "Best Amplifiers" referred to those measured at least 101 dB SINAD, or -101 dB THD+N for those who prefer THD+N based on that particular SINAD measurements.
I recall you mentioning the Chinese-made Topping LA90 amp a few times in the past.

SINAD 120dB. 320W x 1Ch 4-ohm Bridged. So a lot cheaper than Benchmark and even better SINAD? :D

So “made in China” can be among “the best”. :D

So if people only cared about having the best SINAD, they can just buy the Topping LA90 amps. :D
 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Junior Audioholic
So if people only cared about having the best SINAD, they can just buy the Topping LA90 amps. :D
The best, um , I mean the one with the largest SINAD number (in a color category deemed "excellent") is now a different (mono) Topping (although the order listed may simply be due to its alphabetic name). Double click this link to enlarge:


Within a dB or two I think we are quickly approaching the limits of the resolution of his current analyzer!

His list is constantly evolving as he tests new ones but this one is from March, this year. Many reviewers establish SINAD under different conditions so Amir's specs may not align perfectly with other sources.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Wow.

The best, um , I mean the one with the largest SINAD number (in a color category deemed "excellent") is now a different (mono) Topping (although the order listed may simply be due to its alphabetic name). Double click this link to enlarge:


Within a dB or two I think we are quickly approaching the limits of the resolution of his current analyzer!

His list is constantly evolving as he tests new ones but this one is from March, this year. Many reviewers establish SINAD under different conditions so Amir's specs may not align perfectly with other sources.
So if a guy only cares about the highest SINAD on Amir’s ASR website, he could just get a Chinese Topping B200 200W-8-ohm-4-ohm Mono Amp for $600 with 120dB SINAD, instead of the $3,500 Benchmark amp w/ 113dB SINAD.

So what’s the secret recipe? :D

Costco’s Kirkland should contract Topping to build a much prettier standard size 17” 200x2 Amp and call it “Kirkland Signature SINAD-120 200x2” Amp. :D

It’s gonna look like this. :D

 
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m. zillch

m. zillch

Junior Audioholic
The opening word "wow" in my previous post was accidentally left in from a post I never made but failed to fully erase when I then re-wrote my post. sorry. I have deleted the word.
 
m. zillch

m. zillch

Junior Audioholic
So if a guy only cares about the highest SINAD on Amir’s ASR website, he could just get a Chinese Topping B200 200W-8-ohm-4-ohm Mono Amp for $600 with 120dB SINAD, instead of the $3,500 Benchmark amp w/ 113dB SINAD
Well you'd need two B200 for stereo so $1200 total, and keep in mind the Benchmark used to be $3000, has markedly more power, and is built in the US.

I doubt they'd sound different if both are kept within their operational range though playing music in normal conditions.
 
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