ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Actually the Marantz sounds waaaay different than the denon. Oh wait, that’s because I’ve only heard the Marantz...

I agree with your post Ryan. Only thing I’d add is that while the 6012 does get pretty damn warms it does NOT get as hot as my pioneer. Not worried about my 6012(yay I can say that now!) since it does run cooler than the pioneer which is a 1019ahk. 8yrs old iirc? Old anyways. Agreed. Get the fan. Be happy.
When I was running Audyssey test with the app, I had the Infinity fans off, but the display on... temp read 113F. Definitely much happier with it on... now if only I could switch it to the rear vent rather than forward!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
D&M Holdings was sold by Bain Capitol to Sound United because they were not profitable

Previously they used (2) separate design teams & assembly factories but now use the same one
So they use the same factory in Japan for the higher-end models of Marantz/Denon and use the same factory in Vietnam for the lower-end models of Marantz/Denon?

Hopefully they didn't go cheap on the parts to make more profit.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Actually the Marantz sounds waaaay different than the denon. Oh wait, that’s because I’ve only heard the Marantz...
I don't think it is because of that, if it is, I would have heard the "waaaay different." too but I didn't. Some do, some don't, it is a subjective thing. After spending hours and hours try to sort out the difference, or whether such perceived difference are real when done properly, or otherwise just due to other factors, I decided to go with verifiable facts via measurements, but that's just me.. If people are to go with subjective experience, who should they believe?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I don't think it is because of that, if it is, I would have heard the "waaaay different." too but I didn't. Some do, some don't, it is a subjective thing. After spending hours and hours try to sort out the difference, or whether such perceived difference are real when done properly, or otherwise just due to other factors, I decided to go with verifiable facts via measurements, but that's just me.. If people are to go with subjective experience, who should they believe?
Sorry @PENG, I think you missed my joke. I never even tried the denon. I will say that XT32 sounds/works much differently than the older XT in my Onkyo.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
From what I can see in the service manual, this (shared hardware and even pages of schematics/parts lists) started a few years ago, for sure since the SR6010/7010/AVR-X3200W/4200, did that lined up with the ownership change then? The 7.1 analog inputs and the HDAM board, especially the 11 channel ones, definitely justify a price premium, but 25% more seems a little extreme but then they knew they could count on the pseudo audiophile group.:D Denon's gadgets on the digital side are software based (except the Denon link) so any additional costs would be minimal.
Regarding the timing of having common design/assembly resources this happened a few years back...
The basic D&M problems were both marketing & financial...
The Denon brand got trounced when they attempted to sell everyone and expand market share which cost them the loyalty/support of the AV specialist. While Marantz was struggling to balance their costs but unfortunately the select specialist channels don't move the higher quantities required to cover development/tooling costs... As I have posted previously, very, very few people are aware of the financial burdens for developing/tooling/validating an AVR... This can run well into 7 figures and today few financial/capitol sources will make the deep $ investments in the CE biz due to subpar profit margins.
There are (2) factories in Vietnam that are capable of building AVRs, I know both of them very well and have visited each plus done some major consulting/product development tasks for each. Hopefully, Sound United with their diversified brand portfolio including car alarms & loudspeakers will be enough to make a reasonable financial return.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Sorry @PENG, I think you missed my joke. I never even tried the denon. I will say that XT32 sounds/works much differently than the older XT in my Onkyo.
That's a good one, but seriously, if you do an AB, unless you do it blind, you will likely hear a difference even if the test is done level matched, no EQ etc. I invested in a mic and learn REW for a few reasons, trying to quantify any such often claimed difference between very similar amps is one of the main reason...:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hopefully, Sound United with their diversified brand portfolio including car alarms & loudspeakers will be enough to make a reasonable financial return.

Just my $0.02... ;)
Me too, I really hope they can survive without further cost cutting unless such efforts won't result in reduction in quality. Their current product lines now are quite reasonable in terms of a good balance between cost, features and sound quality. They are now using controlled forced air cooling resulted in the much needed weight reduction as they are forced to pack more channels and processing power in one box. The eco mode is also nice, and there is potential to make it more adaptive/intelligent such that it won't limit power output so much as the current design does.

The only thing is, I wonder if they would try to match Yamaha's reliability features such as certifying HDMI compatibility etc., even if that means they have to increase the price a little. I am guessing that a lot of their fans won't mind paying a little more for much improved reliability, i.e. targeted to last 9 years instead of 8 years (it may gain them back at least 1 ex fan boy..).;);)
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Me too, I really hope they can survive without further cost cutting unless such efforts won't result in reduction in quality. Their current product lines now are quite reasonable in terms of a good balance between cost, features and sound quality. They are now using controlled forced air cooling resulted in the much needed weight reduction as they are forced to pack more channels and processing power in one box. The eco mode is also nice, and there is potential to make it more adaptive/intelligent such that it won't limit power output so much as the current design does.

The only thing is, I wonder if they would try to match Yamaha's reliability features such as certifying HDMI compatibility etc., even if that means they have to increase the price a little. I am guessing that a lot of their fans won't mind paying a little more for much improved reliability, i.e. targeted to last 9 years instead of 8 years (it may gain them back at least 1 ex fan boy..).;);)
Hmmm..
Matching Yamaha for reliability and HDMI/HDCP comparability will be challenge..
Possible, but very hard to achieve if they don't have their own factories..
Regarding ECO Mode, note that this was a mandatory feature required if the product was sold in Europe as to meet stand-by power consumption standards. Since its introduction the marketing boys have tried putting more marketing fluff/spin on it...

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
That's a good one, but seriously, if you do an AB, unless you do it blind, you will likely hear a difference even if the test is done level matched, no EQ etc. I invested in a mic and learn REW for a few reasons, trying to quantify any such often claimed difference between very similar amps is one of the main reason...:D
Iirc, you weren’t t able to measure anything that could prove what you heard. I’ll have to go by your findings as I won’t be able to do an experiment like that here.
Also, so far I’m very pleased with my 6012. However one nit to pick is the volume ramp speed is too fast. is there a way to change that, I was gonna call CS but have been very busy.
Also, it seems I need a higher relative volume level compared to my 808. I don’t feel like I’ve pushed it to where it’s run out of steam yet, but an interesting observation.

Watched john wick yesterday. Very well done.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Me too, I really hope they can survive without further cost cutting unless such efforts won't result in reduction in quality. Their current product lines now are quite reasonable in terms of a good balance between cost, features and sound quality. They are now using controlled forced air cooling resulted in the much needed weight reduction as they are forced to pack more channels and processing power in one box. ;)
Since when have D & M started using controlled forced cooling in their AVRs? I presume that they started last year. One of my friends has one SR5011 and two SR5012s. He told me that the 5012s run cooler.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Since when have D & M started using controlled forced cooling in their AVRs? I presume that they started last year. One of my friends has one SR5011 and two SR5012s. He told me that the 5012s run cooler.
The 2017 models have temperature controlled fans for sure, I suspect it started in 2014 or 2015 but not sure.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Iirc, you weren’t t able to measure anything that could prove what you heard. I’ll have to go by your findings as I won’t be able to do an experiment like that here.
Also, so far I’m very pleased with my 6012. However one nit to pick is the volume ramp speed is too fast. is there a way to change that, I was gonna call CS but have been very busy.
Also, it seems I need a higher relative volume level compared to my 808. I don’t feel like I’ve pushed it to where it’s run out of steam yet, but an interesting observation.

Watched john wick yesterday. Very well done.
I have never owned an Onkyo AVR so I don't know how fast their volume control ramp rate is. I can tell you the ramp rate of the 5 Denon and 2 Marantz AVR/AVPs I have owned, appeared to be about the same and I don't think you can change the rate. It is only a problem if you press and hold, so it really isn't that bad right?
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I have never owned an Onkyo AVR so I don't know how fast their volume control ramp rate is. I can tell you the ramp rate of the 5 Denon and 2 Marantz AVR/AVPs I have owned, appeared to be about the same and I don't think you can change the rate. It is only a problem if you press and hold, so it really isn't that bad right?
My Onkyo 809 seems to be the same or very similar to my Denon 1300 and 4300 when it comes to the volume rate. FWIW
 

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