D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Maybe it does? For some reason I thought it might have had only one set. Don’t know why. Still, the extra money wasn’t worth it for me. I feel like it’s gonna be a great AVR. If I can EVER get to play...
Hey let us know your impressions on that Marantz I've always been kind off curious about them although I'm very happy with the Denon I have now
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hey let us know your impressions on that Marantz I've always been kind off curious about them although I'm very happy with the Denon I have now
If you are as curious as I am, just go get one from BB/Amazon and rotate them in your system like I did for a while. If you like both, keep both..:D
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
So since they are identical, I wonder why Denon and Marantz bother with the production of 2 separate product lines? Maybe they should just sell one or the other. :)
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
If you are as curious as I am, just go get one from BB/Amazon and rotate them in your system like I did for a while. If you like both, keep both..:D
Or I could just buy one for my bedroom system I'm building and move the old onkyo to the office setup :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Or I could just buy one for my bedroom system I'm building and move the old onkyo to the office setup :D
Good idea, I got so curious about the D Vs M because since 2015/16 they are getting so closed to being technically identical twins even on the audio side, almost like Onkyo vs Integra. My conclusion is that I cannot detect any sq difference in 2ch music sessions. For MCH movies, there is no way I would claim hearing a difference because there are just too much going on in movies to allow me to discern any minor audible differences that might be there.

Subjectively, I actually thought the Denon sounded more dynamic, as I seemed to get startled more often, but then such subjective feeling would have been deemed totally unreliable. So I spent hours and hours taking measurements and comparing schematics meticulously, almost line by line. At the end, I could not find any evidence to support the initial perceived difference in dynamics.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So since they are identical, I wonder why Denon and Marantz bother with the production of 2 separate product lines? :)
First, they are not identical. I said "close to", but definitely not identical. Sorry if I inadvertently stated my point too strongly. I consider it "close to being...." because there is practically just one additional buffer stage in the Marantz preamp and the DDSC HD and AL32 processing in the Denon. The video side is in fact identical (e.g. X4400H vs SR7012),the digital processing, the power supply and the power amp sections also look to be virtually (in case I missed something very minor) identical from what I can see. The 7.1 analog inputs and Denon link make no difference if not used, and I bet 99% users don't use them. The DDSC HD, AL32, like the HDAM were supposedly there to improve on transparency and accuracy, but like the DAC chip thing, the resulting differences may be measurable, but most likely not audible to most humans.

In theory, the HDAM modules, that make up one single circuit board (13 in my AV8801, and of course 15 in the AV8805),does represent a significant difference in the preamp's output buffer stage. That extra stage however, does not make an audible difference to me, nor did they make any measurable and significant difference revealed in available bench tests. If it automatically means better SQ then life would be great and simple. There are many much more older and expensive audiophile class Marantz amps that don't have any versions of HDAM, and Marantz fans still loved them. Why do they implement the HDAMthing then? Who knows, engineers/designers all have their opinions, preference and beliefs that can change over time. Also, I am sure just because they are there, some of the people who know about them will automatically hear a difference while some (like me) may not.

Maybe they should just sell one or the other.
Agreed, but there is a commercial side of the story.. If they stay together long enough though, they might do just that, and then simply change their names to Marnon, or Denrantz etc. Until then, keeping certain exclusive features for each line seems like a good marketing strategy that could help them keep the original customer base of both lines while pushing to expand and sell more overall.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
First, they are not identical. I said "close to", but definitely not identical. Sorry if I inadvertently stated my point too strongly. I consider it "close to being...." because there is practically just one additional buffer stage in the Marantz preamp and the DDSC HD and AL32 processing in the Denon. The video side is in fact identical (e.g. X4400H vs SR7012),the digital processing, the power supply and the power amp sections also look to be virtually (in case I missed something very minor) identical from what I can see. The 7.1 analog inputs and Denon link make no difference if not used, and I bet 99% users don't use them. The DDSC HD, AL32, like the HDAM were supposedly there to improve on transparency and accuracy, but like the DAC chip thing, the resulting differences may be measurable, but most likely not audible to most humans.

In theory, the HDAM modules, that make up one single circuit board (13 in my AV8801, and of course 15 in the AV8805),does represent a significant difference in the preamp's output buffer stage. That extra stage however, does not make an audible difference to me, nor did they make any measurable and significant difference revealed in available bench tests. If it automatically means better SQ then life would be great and simple. There are many much more older and expensive audiophile class Marantz amps that don't have any versions of HDAM, and Marantz fans still loved them. Why do they implement the HDAMthing then? Who knows, engineers/designers all have their opinions, preference and beliefs that can change over time. Also, I am sure just because they are there, some of the people who know about them will automatically hear a difference while some (like me) may not.



Agreed, but there is a commercial side of the story.. If they stay together long enough though, they might do just that, and then simply change their names to Marnon, or Denrantz etc. Until then, keeping certain exclusive features for each line seems like a good marketing strategy that could help them keep the original customer base of both lines while pushing to expand and sell more overall.
Ya your points were very strong especially since you own both. Voting for..... Denrantz :) LOL :)
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Agreed. @PENG always brings up good practical points. For me, the Marantz won because of the pre-OUTS, the look, and it was a little cheaper. I couldn’t care less about Auro right now so that wasn’t a big deal. I do have a 2ch amp for my mains so I’m not concerned with power, and if I do need more, I can buy another Yamaha amp! The denon is a great AVR and also a good deal but for the extra money, the denon just wasn’t worth it to me.
@StinkyPete what considerations do you have?
Did you get to watch any Atmos movies yet?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Did you get to watch any Atmos movies yet?
Actually I do have a bunch. First one was TMNT I bought at release. Looking forward to some good seat time. Wrapping up some things first. I think john wick or EQ2 tonight?
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Did you get to watch any Atmos movies yet?
I should read all the words. Thought you asked if I got any yet. Lol.
I watched the attack on hacksaw ridge last night at about 1:00am. Pretty quiet, but definitely liked what I heard.
 
F

Filmgeek47

Enthusiast
I’m in a similar boat as some of the previous posters. Stuck between the sr6012 vs the 7012 (I’m really happy with the Marantz I have now, but I’m looking to upgrade to 7.1.4 functionality which my 5010 can’t do). Can anyone comment on audible differences in sound quality between the two models. Anyone know if the 7012 runs cooler? I’m getting a bit spooked by all the comments about the 6012 running really hot in reviews. Thanks in advance!
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
They won’t sound different. And the difference in amp power is negligible. Don’t worry about the temp... just buy an ac infinity for it. Ya, sucks to spend an extra 100, but it’s worth it, and I would probably buy one for when I upgrade from my 6012 in a few years.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I’m in a similar boat as some of the previous posters. Stuck between the sr6012 vs the 7012 (I’m really happy with the Marantz I have now, but I’m looking to upgrade to 7.1.4 functionality which my 5010 can’t do). Can anyone comment on audible differences in sound quality between the two models. Anyone know if the 7012 runs cooler? I’m getting a bit spooked by all the comments about the 6012 running really hot in reviews. Thanks in advance!
I highly doubt you an hear a difference, even though the 7012 does have a better DAC. If you believe in REQ though, then the 7012 has the far superior XT32 Sub EQ HT, versus the 5010's older XT version. The 7012 won't run any cooler, not significant anyway either way, unless you turn on ECO mode.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Both the 6012 and 7012 have Audyssey XT32 so they will both sound the same whether in Bypass mode or with Audyssey.

The Denon X3400 and X4400 also have XT32. So all four of them will sound the same whether in Bypass mode or with Audyssey.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
A couple of points..
  • D&M Holdings was sold by Bain Capitol to Sound United because they were not profitable
  • Previously they used (2) separate design teams & assembly factories but now use the same one
  • Denon sales are 10X higher vs Marantz
  • Due to the financial pressures, now there are common hardware & software designs between the brands
  • Denon distribution channels are broader than Marantz, including internet and big-box retailers
  • Marantz distribution channels are more select and targeted to the independent and AV specialists
  • Typically the comparable Marantz AVR vs Denon AVR is priced up to 25% higher
Just my $0.02... ;)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Both the 6012 and 7012 have Audyssey XT32 so they will both sound the same whether in Bypass mode or with Audyssey.

The Denon X3400 and X4400 also have XT32. So all four of them will sound the same whether in Bypass mode or with Audyssey.
Agreed, like I said, he would only hear a difference by upgrading to either, due to XT32 over XT (he currently has the SR5010).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
  • Due to the financial pressures, now there are common hardware & software designs between the brands
From what I can see in the service manual, this (shared hardware and even pages of schematics/parts lists) started a few years ago, for sure since the SR6010/7010/AVR-X3200W/4200, did that lined up with the ownership change then? The 7.1 analog inputs and the HDAM board, especially the 11 channel ones, definitely justify a price premium, but 25% more seems a little extreme but then they knew they could count on the pseudo audiophile group.:D Denon's gadgets on the digital side are software based (except the Denon link) so any additional costs would be minimal.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
They won’t sound different. And the difference in amp power is negligible. Don’t worry about the temp... just buy an ac infinity for it. Ya, sucks to spend an extra 100, but it’s worth it, and I would probably buy one for when I upgrade from my 6012 in a few years.
Actually the Marantz sounds waaaay different than the denon. Oh wait, that’s because I’ve only heard the Marantz...

I agree with your post Ryan. Only thing I’d add is that while the 6012 does get pretty damn warms it does NOT get as hot as my pioneer. Not worried about my 6012(yay I can say that now!) since it does run cooler than the pioneer which is a 1019ahk. 8yrs old iirc? Old anyways. Agreed. Get the fan. Be happy.
 
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