Marantz MM8003 or Emotiva XPA-2 + XPA-5 ?

[sharkman]

Well, let's get the fine print out of the way first. The following is obviously only my opinion so please treat it as such. That being said . . .

I brought the XPA-3 into my favorite local audio store to do a little critical listening with a pair of Monitor Audio PL100s. I owned these speakers previously so I am very familiar with how they sound. Anyway, it didn't take more than 30 seconds for me to be disappointed (I did a lot more listening than that, but my opinion didn't change). The sound was very harsh and grainy and unpleasant to listen to. I'm not trying to throw around fancy words here. I think these are pretty universal words to describe a particular sound without getting too esoteric. Anyway, we were comparing it to an old Nelson Pass designed Adcom two channel amplifier (no, not the 555 or variant). I brought up the fact that this wasn't a fair comparison (I really wanted to like the XPA-3 and was trying to justify buying it) because they are in two totally different price classes. However, that being said, why pay any amount of money for something that you think sounds bad?

I already have a Denon AVR-3808CI and it sounds better to me than the XPA-3 also. It was a no-brainer for me to send it back and continue my search for a better sounding amp. If you have even an average AV receiver, I just can't imagine someone adding this to their system and thinking they have made an improvement.

I wish I had a different opinion. Like I said, I wanted to like this amp. The ears don't lie, though.

From what my experience has been with my Onkyo 876, Denon 3803 and XPA-3 something was either wrong with your set up, or wrong with the XPA-3. I have found it outperforms my two high end receivers in dynamics and SQ. But Emotiva has even better options if you are wanting a dedicated 2 channel system for music, which is what it sounds like by your audition set up. But to each his own, buy what you want.

 

[racquetman]

Since you already have a Denon AVR-3808CI, you don't need an external amp.

I think any amp you get will be only an insignificant gain, if any at all, especially if your speakers are sensitive.

If you subscribe to the theory that all amps sound the same then you are right, I don't need an external amp (unless I require more power).

If everyone thought all amps sounded the same, though, there would be no market for external amplification (again, putting power requirements aside). Everyone would just buy an integrated amp or a receiver. Obviously that is not the case.

Since I just heard an obvious difference between two amps (and I wasn't expecting to), I will continue the search for the amp that sounds best to me, especially if I believe the sound can be superior to that of the Denon.

If you disagree, that's fine with me. You aren't going to convince me otherwise after what I just heard, though.

 

[j_garcia]

After what you just heard in a shop that would rather have you buy their gear than something you got off the web that costs considerably less? No offense, but unless you know these guys personally, I can't help but feel they may have done something to skew the test. Various Emotiva amps have been reviewed quite favorably here on AH. I have auditioned far more expensive amps and I can't say that they really offered much benefit for the increase in price comparatively.

I've had this amp for nearly a year now and I've owned a number of other amps. I'd have to say that it is the least colored of all of them, and certainly not a harsh sounding one, though my speakers are 4Ohm and are fairly mellow. I have had ribbon tweeters in the same setup with this amp and they sounded perfectly fine as well, so I am not sure what exactly you were listening to or for.

The PL100s are slightly lower sensitivity than my speakers and are also 4 Ohm, and I can't imagine they sound great being powered only by a receiver unless they are in a small room.

 

[Seth=L]

If everyone thought all amps sounded the same, though, there would be no market for external amplification (again, putting power requirements aside). Everyone would just buy an integrated amp or a receiver. Obviously that is not the case.

If everyone thought that all speaker cables sounded the same, though, there would be no market for exotic speaker cables (again, putting gauge & resistance requirements aside). Everyone would just buy lamp cord or cheap wire. Obviously that is not the case.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If everyone thought all amps sounded the same, though, there would be no market for external amplification.

I think all amps, preamps, wires/cables, DACs, CD players sound the same.

And yet I have 3 external amps: ATI AT3002, AT3005, and AT6012.

I also have the Denon AVP-A1HDCI & AVR-5308CI even though I don't think they sound any better than a $400 AVR.

I have a $2K Denon BD player and a $2K Denon Universal player even though I don't think they sound any better than the Oppo $500 player.

I do all this because I can.

So there is always a market out there regardless of what people believe.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You aren't going to convince me otherwise after what I just heard, though.

I don't think anyone here is expecting to be able to convince you.

But really, though, was the VOLUME LEVEL MATCHED?

C'mon, was it 100% volume level matched with a SPL meter or just "ear-level-matched"?

 

[j_garcia]

My XPA-3 doesn't sound better than my 8300. It DOES give me a LOT more clean SPL though, which is exactly why I have it. I like to listen to music at rather elevated levels

 

[racquetman]

After what you just heard in a shop that would rather have you buy their gear than something you got off the web that costs considerably less? No offense, but unless you know these guys personally, I can't help but feel they may have done something to skew the test.

This is a small store with one employee, the owner. He wasn't trying to sell me anything. We have become friends and he was nice enough to let me come in and listen to my gear next to stuff he has in his store.

 

[racquetman]

If everyone thought that all speaker cables sounded the same, though, there would be no market for exotic speaker cables (again, putting gauge & resistance requirements aside). Everyone would just buy lamp cord or cheap wire. Obviously that is not the case.

So we can agree that people believe they hear differences between different products. I don't dismiss these people because I don't hear what they hear. If someone thinks two different interconnects sound different, so be it. That doesn't bother me. I personally have never heard a difference and therefore I choose my interconnects accordingly.

Let your own ears be the judge and buy what you like. It is that simple.

 

[racquetman]

But really, though, was the VOLUME LEVEL MATCHED?

C'mon, was it 100% volume level matched with a SPL meter or just "ear-level-matched"?

What I heard was not dependent on SPL. This difference could easily be heard at any volume.

 

[Ron Temple]

Ok, I'll chime in...awhile back I had 3 2 channel amps of similar specs, a Carver TFM 35, an Adcom GFA555 (of Nelson Pass fame) and a Luxman M-117. I could keep 2 of them, buy the Adcom and sell one of the others or give it back. I liked all 3 and each did different things with my speakers. The Adcom made them sound forward with greater micro detail. The Carver was extremely deep and very laid back and the Luxman split the difference. I tried that Adcom out for about a month, but decided ultimately that I preferred the Luxman running my fronts (SDAs) and the Carver running my surrounds (SDAs). I really liked the Adcom for some material, but it was too stark a difference when running with the other amps. I eventually sold the Luxman, after a long audition against a Carver TFM45 which is a more powerful amp @ 375 X 2. It was a tough decision, but there was a definite edge in dynamics with the Carver, as well as, a wider and taller soundstage. So, IME, some amps do definitely sound different, especially Carver and that Luxman amp, both modded by the manufacturer to emulate tubes. There have been other amps through here, that have less of a difference, even a couple that John Garcia brought over, but they did sound different.

I have no interest in level matching or DB testing to disprove what I hear in my own room. Don't have the time for it nor any inclination. BTW, I have heard John's XPA3 and his previous amps. I hear no downside in his rig, in fact, with the Emo, it's improved.

 

[jinjuku]

Hmmm...

I had hands on with the XPA-3, Nad C272, Parasound HCA1000A (I own), Adcom GFA 5503 (I own).

There really wasn't a bad amp in the batch. I mean the NAD was a little pronounced in the mid range out of the amps but nothing night and day. The XPA-3 did nothing that would want to make me switch out my Adcom (or vice versa)

I run the amps I do because I don't know what speakers I am going to be running from year to year. I simply want a power section that I know will drive them.

I would say there was a problem with the Emotiva you listened too.

 

[j_garcia]

Ok, I'll chime in...awhile back I had 3 2 channel amps of similar specs, a Carver TFM 35, an Adcom GFA555 (of Nelson Pass fame) and a Luxman M-117. I could keep 2 of them, buy the Adcom and sell one of the others or give it back. I liked all 3 and each did different things with my speakers. The Adcom made them sound forward with greater micro detail. The Carver was extremely deep and very laid back and the Luxman split the difference. I tried that Adcom out for about a month, but decided ultimately that I preferred the Luxman running my fronts (SDAs) and the Carver running my surrounds (SDAs). I really liked the Adcom for some material, but it was too stark a difference when running with the other amps. I eventually sold the Luxman, after a long audition against a Carver TFM45 which is a more powerful amp @ 375 X 2. It was a tough decision, but there was a definite edge in dynamics with the Carver, as well as, a wider and taller soundstage. So, IME, some amps do definitely sound different, especially Carver and that Luxman amp, both modded by the manufacturer to emulate tubes. There have been other amps through here, that have less of a difference, even a couple that John Garcia brought over, but they did sound different.

I believe it was that same Luxman that Ron let me borrow and it sounded good in my system as well, but definitely different than my other amps.

 

[jinjuku]

Uh, are you trying to tell people that every amplifier on the planet sounds the same as long as they are driven within "their operational limits?!" If so, I suggest you make a b-line to an audiologist.

As someone who has just auditioned an XPA-3, I highly suggest you spend your money elsewhere. The 30 day money back guarantee saved me, but I still lost almost $70 in shipping costs.

I would tell people not to expect a night/day blow your hair back difference between quality amps. I think an amp can be designed to sound 'different' and then that 'difference' marketed. But I never believed in amps or ic's or pre-pros that doubled as an EQ.

 

[Ron Temple]

I would tell people not to expect a night/day blow your hair back difference between quality amps. I think an amp can be designed to sound 'different' and then that 'difference' marketed. But I never believed in amps or ic's or pre-pros that doubled as an EQ.

I can agree with that. Ultimately, when you do a shoot out, you listen for differences and preferences and make a decision. In my case, I could hear the differences, but had a hard time identifying preferences.

 

[PENG]

+1.

They need to get rid of those 2 front side plates and those blue lights.

That would also SAVE the consumers some money.

+2. For me to buy one they would have to fit the guts into box that looks like a Bryston, as minimum. Bryston looks very dull, but at least not ugly or cheesy.

 

[PENG]

If everyone thought that all speaker cables sounded the same, though, there would be no market for exotic speaker cables (again, putting gauge & resistance requirements aside). Everyone would just buy lamp cord or cheap wire. Obviously that is not the case.

Well said, same kind of logic/illogic..

 

[PENG]

That being said, hearing the difference between amps can be extremely easy in many cases, even if they have very similar specs. I could prove that to anyone with an open mind in about 10 seconds if they wanted to travel to my location. I think people that claim otherwise must sit in front of a computer all day long and never listen to anything. I really don't have any other explanation for why someone would claim otherwise. Sorry if this offends anyone . . .

I have been mainly reacting to the above (I bolded the parts I reacted to), as well as the other one where he suggested Seth to see an audiologist. That being said, it is just his opinion, so that's fine. Other than that nothing else he said surprised me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What I heard was not dependent on SPL. This difference could easily be heard at any volume.

Have you tried Lexicon amps?

I heard they sound awesome.

I love the way Lexicon amps sound.

 

[GranteedEV]

^ I totally agree. I've compared the Lexicon ZX-7 with another amp of similar wattage ratings and the sound of the Lexicon just blew me away. I can't even begin to describe it! It was so liquid, seducing and the transparency was clearer than air. And yet it added so much warmth and energy to my speakers, it was like nothing I've ever heard!