Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[PENG]

I'd say Dr. Mark knows what he is talking about 99% of the time, some just don't like his bluntness. Hopefully this can be understood the longer you're around.

Agreed to a point, at least in this case/topic, but it would have been to a much larger extent if he had gone into engineering, preferably electrical (or electrical and electronics, or measurements/instrumentation etc.) in those days, instead of medicine lol..

He, or we, can't convince guys like PaulBe, who clearly is on the subjective side, he emphasized the importance/relevance of subjective measurements, that I fully agreed, but on trying to establish what he experienced as reported in the last few threads on phase, I would put much more importance on any of such subjective measurements done in blind AB, at least single blind if not double blind. That of course is nearly impossible to do for home entertainment environment, even Harman would have difficulty doing it to Dr. Toole's satisfaction (I don't know that but can imagine it).

There is some threads on this very topic, below is one, and I would think the OP, if interested, might want to read it to see the tons of different opinions, many based on their own research/reading, and experience.

As to "experts" @TLS Guy , I don't know who he would consider expert, but if Dr. Toole is one he might consider as an expert, then he would probably be please to see that Dr. Toole and him might agree on this topic:

Linear Phase in Studio Monitors - the responses of Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Wolfgang Klippel, Andrew Jones, and James Croft | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Here are a couple examples, noted/quoted by ASR members in the linked thread above:

Dr. Toole (again, just quoted by an ASR member, not sure if 100% accurate)

Naturally I did some tests, reversing polarities of loudspeakers, and introducing phase shift to distort musical waveforms — listening for big differences. They weren’t there. At least not in the music I was listening to, through the loudspeakers I was using, from the musical sources I employed. Maybe I was simply unable to hear these things. Yes, there were times when I thought I heard things, but they were subtle, and hard to repeat. Changing loudspeakers made huge differences. Changing recording companies or engineers made huge differences. But, the anticipated “dramatic” event of inverting polarity appeared to be missing, in spite of how appealing the idea of waveform integrity is from an engineering perspective.

(F. Toole).

A. Jones (another recognized by many as expert, assuming A. is Andrew)

One intriguing approach was pioneered by Bang & Olufsen (B&O), the “filler driver” concept. This was basically a conventional two-way speaker with a filler driver that corrected the phase error. Ingenious but just as flawed as the other approaches. Why flawed? Because all implementations of phase linear speakers other than those using concentric drivers achieve their phase linearity on only one axis. Every other angle, both horizontal and vertical, must introduce added differential delay and so eliminate phase coherency.

(A. Jones)

 

[TLS Guy]

Agreed to a point, at least in this case/topic, but it would have been to a much larger extent if he had gone into engineering, preferably electrical (or electrical and electronics, or measurements/instrumentation etc.) in those days, instead of medicine lol..

He, or we, can't convince guys like PaulBe, who clearly is on the subjective side, he emphasized the importance/relevance of subjective measurements, that I fully agreed, but on trying to establish what he experienced as reported in the last few threads on phase, I would put much more importance on any of such subjective measurements done in blind AB, at least single blind if not double blind. That of course is nearly impossible to do for home entertainment environment, even Harman would have difficulty doing it to Dr. Toole's satisfaction (I don't know that but can imagine it).

There is some threads on this very topic, below is one, and I would think the OP, if interested, might want to read it to see the tons of different opinions, many based on their own research/reading, and experience.

As to "experts" @TLS Guy , I don't know who he would consider expert, but if Dr. Toole is one he might consider as an expert, then he would probably be please to see that Dr. Toole and him might agree on this topic:

Linear Phase in Studio Monitors - the responses of Dr. Floyd Toole, Dr. Wolfgang Klippel, Andrew Jones, and James Croft | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Here are a couple examples, noted/quoted by ASR members in the linked thread above:

Dr. Toole (again, just quoted by an ASR member, not sure if 100% accurate)


A. Jones (another recognized by many as expert, assuming A. is Andrew)

That is exactly the point I made. Even with two single stereo drivers there will be phase shifts as you move around the room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Perhaps I haven’t explained myself very well. I am not a subjectivist. Measurements matter. Measurements that we commonly depend on do not tell a whole story, and often become strawmen for argumentation by both objectivists and subjectivists. Why they become strawmen has various answers.

Floyd Toole did say – I’ll paraphrase it – ‘We do not listen in waveforms’. The reproduced sound does Not need to be waveform matched to the original source to achieve great reproduction. That is a good thing. Reproduction is an analogy.

Waveform matching from source to reproduction, and phase matching between reproducers, are two different subjects.

I declared that phase matching matters with correlated sound, and reproducers. This should be self-evident. We use the same speakers for L&R. The most coherent sound from L&R comes from speakers with matched drivers and matched crossovers. Any speaker pair – or combination - that produces a phantom image relies on reproducer matching to produce the best phantom image. This is the kind of thing that the BBC knew 50 years ago, and they are hardly subjectivists.

All multi-channel recordings made in acoustic space – especially those made with a Decca Tree style mic setup - have correlating signals between any combinations of the channels. We don’t need to lock our heads in a vice to hear these correctly. The Mic Tree is manipulated to the production requirements. Sound correlation between channels is also done with electronic sources and has been done since early 2 channel stereo.

Again, one does Not need to put their head in a vice, nor distance match their speakers to a millimeter, to hear the effect. However, sitting at MLP matters. There is only one good seat in a HT or home listening room. This has always been the case since 2 channel stereo. A phase matched HT system will reproduce recorded details that can’t be reproduced in common unmatched layouts.

The phantom image is very delicate. The speakers do Not have to be linear phase. They have to be as similar as possible to create that fragile phantom image. The image does not need source/reproduction waveform matching. It needs reproducer phase/waveform matching between speakers that produce a phantom image. On the production side, recording engineers will use matched microphones to best record stereo in an acoustic space.

The interesting thing is this lack of phase match is the kind of problem that room correction like Dirac tries to fix. They are partially successful.

I’m done with this topic.

So what's the take-home message that perhaps everyone can agree upon?

That Phase-Matching is also important for sound quality, as with other things. But we don't have to be so "critical" about it since we are talking about a hobby, not rocket science or brain/heart surgery?

 

[TLS Guy]

So what's the take-home message that perhaps everyone can agree upon?

That Phase-Matching is also important for sound quality, as with other things. But we don't have to be so "critical" about it since we are talking about a hobby, not rocket science or brain/heart surgery?

Yes, phase is an important aspect in speaker design, and there are no perfect solutions. However there is a pecking order in priorities in that a flatter FR aces phasing issues. With spaced drivers there are no perfect solutions to the conundrum, only making the best of a bad hand. The biggest areas for improvement lie in good coaxial drivers that can cover at least the whole speech discrimination band and are an active design using digital crossovers with DSP. This is the approach used by Sigberg audio. In my view they are on the right track. With spaced drivers and or analog crossovers there is no perfect solution to the phase aberration problem only attempts to minimise the issue as much as possible.

I will say this, that the front three should be more similar than different in this respect. Unfortunately this is very seldom the case. The short version is that the front three should have the same crossover point if possible and the same order of crossover. MTM and coaxial designs do really help to mitigate this significant problem. My mains are MTM and crossed at 2,500 Hz, with second order bass/mid and third order tweeter.
The center coaxial has the same crossover point and the same order filters, and the time path to the MLP is the same. This does go a long way to mitigate the problem and the front stage is seamless as you walk across the sound stage.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I will say this, that the front three should be more similar

Is this the common denominator?

I think most of us will agree that ideally, the front 3 should be as similar to each other as possible.

Even better if all “bed” speakers are identical.

But the main front 3 are salient.

Can the AV10’s Dirac or Audyssey improve the Phase-matching ?

 

[TLS Guy]

Is this the common denominator?

I think most of us will agree that ideally, the front 3 should be as similar to each other as possible.

Even better if all “bed” speakers are identical.

But the main front 3 are salient.

Can the AV10’s Dirac or Audyssey improve the Phase-matching ?

No, but it sure lets you know if it is adrift.

This whole issue of speaker phasing and tilt, I think is understood by very few.

So even order filters have an acoustic axis in line with the drivers, all odd order filters have axis tilt.

So a first order filter has 6db/octave driver attenuation and 15 degrees of tilt, downwards if the tweeter is above the bass/mid. So there is lot of driver interaction. The phase shift is only 90 degrees and so are considered for all intent and purposes to be transient perfect. I actually don't think that is the case, because of driver separation.

A second order filter has 12db per octave attenuation and no tilt, but the drivers are 180 degrees out of phase at crossover, which is a significant issue.

A third order crossover has 18db per octave attenuation and 15 degrees of tilt and the phase shift is 270 degrees, so 3/4 of a cycle.

A fourth order filter has 24db per octave attenuation no tilt, and 360 degrees of phase shift, which puts the bass mid a whole cycle behind the tweeter at crossover.

So those are significant problems.

So my front three all have second order low pass and third order high pass at 2,500 Hz. That keeps them very well time aligned and phased. The left and right are MTM which corrects the phase shift tilt, and the center is coaxial and coincident. So, those speakers work as a coherent whole very well indeed with a seamless front stage.

The cross to the bass section is acoustic on the high end. The upper woofer is a mix of the sub channel and the BSC to the mids, to offload them. The lower bass drivers handle only the sub channels.

For the sides and backs I was just lucky. The sides are first order low pass, with second order high pass, with a slight downward tilt. So being mounted just above the seating position radiate to the listening position. These were my location monitors and they were on stands that tilted them to the mixing desk position.

The rears were my previous studio monitors. They are four ways, with first order pass to the lower and upper mids and the tweeters. The lower mid is third order low and high pass at 180 Hz active.

So the tilt is slightly downward, and axis right to the listening position. Being four ways they are very tall and the sound field covers the listening position well. I will never do a speaker with first order crossovers like that again. Theortically simple with good transient response. However getting a good smooth response was an absolute nightmare, that went on four years at least. As mentioned before this was a project I did jointly with Dynaudio, who designed a similar speaker. This was in the first order phase coherent speaker craze. However, they put their tweeters at the bottom with the axis tilted up to the listening position. The problem was it sounded as if the sound was coming up from the floor!

My ceiling speakers are good full range drivers. They work fine for this and don't draw attention to themselves. Most of the time they are just reproducing part of the ambient field, but if called upon in movies they sound very natural.

The front speakers sound and measure well, the waterfall plots do reveal the inevitable slight discontinuity of analog filters at 2,500 Hz, but it is well managed and something you have to accept with analog filters.

The whole issue of center speakers is the biggest problem. The horizontal MTM is just wrong. So the other options are coaxial (best) or a three way design.

For the inwall system I chose the three way design. However I ran into a problem, which I should have anticipated better. The left and right are two ways. The center was a three way, second order filters. This put the center mid out of phase with the woofers and tweeter at the crossovers. So the usual practice of reversing the phase of the mid, did not work. This put the center mid 180 degrees out of phase with the left and right speakers. This showed in measurements, and Audyssey objected strongly. So I had to put the center mid in phase. I was lucky as there was only a narrow null at the upper crossover, that is not audible, I don't think. Audyssey was happy and the measurements are better. I should have foreseen this problem from the beginning, but these speakers were designed in a hurry, when I had a lot going on. This system was done at the insistence of my wife, and had to meet her design spec. of not taking up any floor space. I am glad she pushed my on this, as we use this system a lot, and everyday.

 

[TLS Guy]

Nice post.

Here is my incomplete full range with 15" bass and coaxial 15" mid/compression tweet. Intended crossovers are 150-300Hz, and 1.5Khz. I still need to finish these:
View attachment 74056

If you are going to use passive crossovers and not active, then don't go below 400 Hz with a passive crossover. If you want lower then you need an active crossover.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I want to know how Mozart could write a symphony at the age of 5, and create it better than anything I could write in an entire lifetime...

I hope Mozart will answer that question for me one day.

 

[Verdinut]

I want to know how Mozart could write a symphony at the age of 5, and create it better than anything I could write in an entire lifetime...

Mozart wasn't the only one who composed music at the age of 5. The French composer, Camille Saint-Saens composed at around 5, and our Canadian, Andre Mathieu, started composing at 4. There are probably more of those child prodigies.

Here is one of the CDs featuring Mathieu's music which I recommend:

Amazon.com

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Camille Saint-Saens composed at around 5...

Saint-Saens "Le Cygne" (The Swan) is another piece I listen to almost everyday.

But I don't think anyone, not even Beethoven and Bach, is considered to be as big of a musical genius as Mozart.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My all time favorite pieces are the Bach solo cello suites. Lately I've been playing "The Bach Project, Cello Suites, J.S.Bach, From the Odeon of Herodes Atticus Athens, by Yo-Yo Ma" - almost daily. It's a Blu-ray AV concert done in DTS-HD MA 5.1.

I never get tired of them. The Bach Solo Cello Suites are a desert island selection to me.

So you and TLSGuy are Bach fans.

Who doesn’t like Bach and Mozart? But everyone has their own favorites.

 

[ryanosaur]

Who doesn’t like Bach and Mozart?

*raises hand

I'd rather listen to Penderecki than Mozart.

Not that Wolfy isn't clearly a skilled and prolific composer with great mastery of music theory... but his music is boring A.F! It's like if you could only have sex missionary style with a Blancmange level of boring!

J.S. I'm down with. No problems there.

But Wolfy?

C'mon. We can do better outside of Music Theory 101 and 102 than Wolfy.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have now been listening via my AV 10 for a significant time on a variety of content. I have to report to my surprise that the AV 10 is not just a bit better than previous units, but a lot better.

I had always thought that as usual my speakers where the weakest link. Now I find to my surprise that they were not, but those AVPs were.

The sound from all sources is much better, it is smoother and with a far more realistic sound stage. I am now convinced this is not just processing. I am not sure what this is all due to, but I think it has to do with dynamic range in large part. But there must be others I don't understand. In the quiet sections I think the significantly improved SNR is at play. The other huge factor when you look at the measurements of the AV 10 versus the 7706, you can see distortion rising at a much lower level when you look at it dynamically. With the 7706 it is starting to become significant when the dynamic exceeds 72db or so. where as the AV 10 can get to just over 100db before encountering the same issue. So when you look at it closely the 7706 and I suspect other similar AVPs and receivers can not actually handle a 16 bit digital recording without some issues.

There may be other issues involved I can't fathom, but the improved SQ is definitely real and something I was not anticipating. But the newness factor as now worn off and I am certain the AV 10 is a far bigger upgrade than I anticipated.

This makes me think that those that have come on here using high end two channel systems and switching to receivers a AVPs for AV may well have a point.

So my conclusion is that AVRs and previous AVPs are just not good enough.

The Metropolitan Opera have just put up on MetPlayer their latest stunning production of Verdi's Aida. Both the visual and audio quality is beyond belief. I really felt I had actually been at the Met and have never enjoyed an AV production more.

Members are encouraged to open a trial membership. Aida is a truly gripping drama visually and sonically.

 

[Verdinut]

The Metropolitan Opera have just put up on MetPlayer their latest stunning production of Verdi's Aida. Both the visual and audio quality is beyond belief. I really felt I had actually been at the Met and have never enjoyed an AV production more.

Members are encouraged to open a trial membership. Aida is a truly gripping drama visually and sonically.

I entirely agree with you on this. I have been subscribing to these Met opera recordings for several years. Those are streamed via a Roku device

Last Saturday, I watched that Aida performance. This year, the Met used an entirely new decor. They had been using a previous decor for several productions over the years for this opera. Absent this time were real horses in the second act march.

 

[TLS Guy]

I entirely agree with you on this. I have been subscribing to these Met opera recordings for several years. Those are streamed via a Roku device

Last Saturday, I watched that Aida performance. This year, the Met used an entirely new decor. They had been using a previous decor for several productions over the years for this opera. Absent this time were real horses in the second act march.

The animal rights activists have banned live animals on stage. Heck, the Met used to bring elephants on stage for the "Grand March" like Verdi did at the first performance in Cairo to celebrate the opening of the Suez canal.

 

[TLS Guy]

Tomorrow is the first concert of the 2025 Proms Season. All concerts are broadcast and about two per week televised. So I am looking forward to a great two months of music.

 

[Squishman]

Tomorrow is the first concert of the 2025 Proms Season. All concerts are broadcast and about two per week televised. So I am looking forward to a great two months of music.

Enjoy that!