Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not sure what you are asking.

Did you press the “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT” button?

Did the LCD Screen say “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT”?

On the AV10 and AV7706, there is a “PURE DIRECT” button behind the front panel door on top left.

There is also a button on the remote control.

This is used ONLY to test 2CH playback (NOT ATMOS) with absolutely no processing.

With ATMOS, there will be Sound PROCESSING in both AV10 and AV7706. So I can 100% understand if the AV10 sounds better in ATMOS than the AV7706.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm just skeptical somewhat with a subjective impression generally. It's sort of a backbone of the forum. It's possible there have been such massive changes as described but I tend to think of something described this way as more about the new gear/excitement side of things than tested fact.....but testing is hard and getting an audio oriented person not even a little excited is not the way we're built so much

I'm just somewhat doubting the change in dac/processing would produce such night and day type results....

Recall Marantz uses “HDAM” that @PENG warns about. It can “color” or “warm” the sound like tube amps.

So unless both units were compared in PURE DIRECT MODE 2CH, there will be Sound Processing. And the AV7706 might have worse HDAM effects than the AV10, which is a lot cleaner than the AV7706.

 

[TLS Guy]

Did you press the “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT” button?

Did the LCD Screen say “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT”?

On the AV10 and AV7706, there is a “PURE DIRECT” button behind the front panel door on top left.

There is also a button on the remote control.

This is used ONLY to test 2CH playback (NOT ATMOS) with absolutely no processing.

With ATMOS, there will be Sound PROCESSING in both AV10 and AV7706. So I can 100% understand if the AV10 sounds better in ATMOS than the AV7706.

I never used the pure Direct Button. The AVP screen has always said Dolby Atmos. The fact is this unit plays Dolby Atmos correctly and the others did not. I suspect most units from that stable do not play Atmos correctly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I never used the pure Direct Button.

Cannot believe you’ve been using Marantz for so many years and never used Pure Direct (PD) mode for 2CH music.

With Denon/Marantz, you can actually use PD mode and still have BASS/LFE management, unlike all other companies.

I sing Karaoke, so I know all about using PD mode.

If you use any other modes other than D/PD mode, there will always be sound processing which causes a slight delay in sound compared to live feed signal (Microphone).

 

[Trell]

I never used the pure Direct Button. The AVP screen has always said Dolby Atmos. The fact is this unit plays Dolby Atmos correctly and the others did not. I suspect most units from that stable do not play Atmos correctly.

How are the measurements going? A higher output level from an AVP should be straightforward?

 

[TLS Guy]

Cannot believe you’ve been using Marantz for so many years and never used Pure Direct (PD) mode for 2CH music.

With Denon/Marantz, you can actually use PD mode and still have BASS/LFE management, unlike all other companies.

I try and change as few buttons as possible. Set it and play is my moto. I have used pure direct occassionally.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I try and change as few buttons as possible. Set it and play is my moto. I have used pure direct occassionally.

I don’t use PD mode either unless I sing Karaoke.

But it is always good to COMPARE PD mode 2CH vs Stereo 2CH to see if you can hear the difference. Some components aren’t as transparent as others when it comes to processing sound, as in the case of your AV10 vs AV7706.

 

[Trell]

So we can’t just look at some DAC or some SINAD numbers and say that one AVP should sound the same as another?

This is a straw man that you've bandied around before. As a seller your comment make sense in order to protect your income at the expense of your marks, which, of course, makes totally sense.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is a straw man that you've bandied around before. As a seller your comment make sense in order to protect your income at the expense of your marks, which, of course, makes totally sense.

I think anyone who has known me for a long time on AH knows that I belong in the “all amps sound the same, any PROCESSORS NOT IN PD MODE can sound different” camp.

But IMO it’s not worth the time or energy to argue about the topic.

In TLS Guy’s case, there is logic to me - he did not compare the AVPs in DIRECT MODE 2CH.

Anytime you compare sound processing, there is potential for significant SQ difference, especially if the AVP uses things like HDAM or other processing.

 

[Trebdp83]

This is why documented comparisons using the same settings in a given pair of systems is so very important in solving a mystery. We have nothing of the kind here. Dialogue Normalization is still alive and well by the way.

Pure Direct and Direct will disable certain functions when selected for playback with a claim that Pure Direct will deliver better sound when turning off the display and video function. Refer to the Sound Mode and Surround Parameter charts for the functions available for use with each sound mode.

Without knowing anything about the settings, sources and input signals of every listening occasion on each system, there is no way to figure out why one system would deliver better perceived sound than the other. While the “early review and impressions” here are interesting, they are anything but scientific.

Improvements by Dolby to Dolby Atmos/Dolby Surround processing means new units will benefit from them. That does not mean older units did a bad job with prior iterations of Dolby processing.

The AV 10 is an extremely capable machine with its abilities limited only by a user’s lack of knowledge. I’m often surprised by many in various forums spending considerable amounts of money on advanced AVPs, AVRs, TVs and media devices about which they seem to know very little or nothing at all.

 

[TLS Guy]

So, you'll measure this to back up your claims?

I don't have those units anymore. However, I did take curves of the front three at 1 meter, mainly to show that BSC was correct and they looked the same as before. I got the room curve at the MLP to look the same as before. The big difference is that my curve no Audyssey, looked the same as before. I only put the mic at the MLP. The big surprise was that on this unit the reference curve looked virtually identical to my curve, and with the old units it did not.

Not sure how you could measure Atmos, but the result is night and day different. On the AV 10 Atmos performs like Dolby claims. On the old units it did not and the change is so massive no one could miss it. It is in no way a small or subtle improvement.

 

[TLS Guy]

Did you press the “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT” button?

Did the LCD Screen say “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT”?

On the AV10 and AV7706, there is a “PURE DIRECT” button behind the front panel door on top left.

There is also a button on the remote control.

This is used ONLY to test 2CH playback (NOT ATMOS) with absolutely no processing.

With ATMOS, there will be Sound PROCESSING in both AV10 and AV7706. So I can 100% understand if the AV10 sounds better in ATMOS than the AV7706.

Actually I seldom use direct mode. The only time I use it consistently is when and engineer wants to check some vile rock mix.

In classical recording you don't add artificial echo, or any adulteration like that. I do not play music I find totally unpleasant and frankly badly engineered no matter what the credentials of the engineer that produced the vile racket.

So in what I listen to, you really don't want all the ambience coming from the front speakers. I find that the Dolby upmixer in fact works very well, especially these days when recording engineers recording classical concerts are reducing their mic counts continuously. Some, are at last not sticking mics in front of soloists which is particularly bad for piano concertos. I think they are realizing that a lot of listeners are using upmixers now, and they don't work properly if you put mics all over the place. That was a mistake I never made, in my radio recording broadcast days. The conductor, or chamber musicians should be in charge and control the balance and not a recording engineer. So for well recorded music I listen with the Dolby upmixer that works very well, and gets the ambient field largely coming from the correct directions. Lastly all my front side and back speakers are very capable speakers. Even the smaller, but not small surrounds are capable speakers and high spl when required. The four bass/mids have 2.5" VCs. I used to use those as my portable monitors and they are very capable.

I should mention that my variable BSC setting needed to be kept the same as before and was spot on. I should mention that variable baffle step compensation is a game changer as far as I'm concerned. It solves a lot of problems that people regard as room problems. I have found, and others, that BSC is in fact very speaker position in the room and room dependent. I regard variable BSC as a highly significant advance towards accurate reproduction in the room.

The Atmos from the AV 10 is a totally different league from anything I have encountered before on a good Atmos stream or disc.

 

[Trebdp83]

The potential reasons for the differences in Dolby Atmos presentation are many. Saying the 7705 and 7706 somehow present Dolby Atmos badly isn’t fair to either of them since the reasons for the differences are basically unknown.

 

[TLS Guy]

The potential reasons for the differences in Dolby Atmos presentation are many. Saying the 7705 and 7706 somehow present Dolby Atmos badly isn’t fair to either of them since the reasons for the differences are basically unknown.

I am pretty sure I know the reason, it is to prevent blowing up receivers with power supplies to puny to drive all the amps crammed in properly. I can bet that is the reason.

 

[PaulBe]

I am pretty sure I know the reason, it is to prevent blowing up receivers with power supplies to puny to drive all the amps crammed in properly. I can bet that is the reason.

Good power supplies are important. However, if the ATMOS presentation is limited by the amps power supplies, all you have to do is lower the volume and the ATMOS presentation would dramatically improve.

The last time I heard a dramatic improvement in sound by lowering the volume is when I was listening decades ago to an old Wurlitzer jukebox at a bar. Lower the volume and the crappy old power supply no longer modulated the sound with 60&120Hz linear power supply hum.

My amps actually run cooler at average sound levels than they do at idle - i.e. they are using less power at average sound levels than at idle.

 

[Trebdp83]

You seem to always know the reason for anything concerning AVPs and AVRs without ever offering up actual evidence to back up your claims.

I believe you when you say you believe you have improved sound with the AV 10. The reasons why are many and still unknown.

You have offered up nothing more than your belief that there is a significant difference between. You wouldn’t accept as much from another making such claims without proof on paper.

I’m glad you are enjoying the system and believe you could improve on it still with some tweaks after learning more about its features and capabilities. That goes for the TV as well.

 

[PaulBe]

Some things that may contribute to sound improvements in the AV10:
1. Better board layout
2. Better grounding
3. Better isolation
4. Better parts
5. 4 layer HDAM circuit boards and improved analog audio circuitry – cascode
6. Better decoding/FW
7. All of the above
8. See #7.

 

[Squishman]

I am looking forward to stopping by soon so I can hear the new set-up. I am sure you will select something that will be a good demo. This Saturday works for me if it does for you. I will have a couple of LP's with me too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some things that may contribute to sound improvements in the AV10:
1. Better board layout
2. Better grounding
3. Better isolation
4. Better parts
5. 4 layer HDAM circuit boards and improved analog audio circuitry – cascode
6. Better decoding/FW
7. All of the above
8. See #7.

Better overall quality of everything is understandable.

Also more transparent HDAM and Processing capability, which also ties in with the better overall quality of everything.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am looking forward to stopping by soon so I can hear the new set-up. I am sure you will select something that will be a good demo. This Saturday works for me if it does for you. I will have a couple of LP's with me too.

I was planning to call you later. Saturday will not work, as I have to cook. We have close friends coming over. Sunday, I think will work.