Marantz AV 10 15.4CH AV Processor Bench Test Results!

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
In a true double blind test I'd be willing to bet my house no one could tell which signal has been digitized again and which hadn't
And I’d bet my house he couldn’t tell the difference between any external DAC and the AV-10’s internal DAC.
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
So moving right along....

...there was once a rumor that the AV10 may be Roon Ready certified in the next firmware. Has anyone heard any more about that? Of course, I wonder if the Harman acquisition will now put the kibosh on Anthem and D&M adopting Roon Ready? Heos is a dumpster fire, so I hope not.
 
Tankini

Tankini

Full Audioholic
"If @Tankini bought his Marantz already, and he wants to use his own external DAC for 2 channel stereo, he has no worry and we don't need to feel sorry for him. In anything, I feel sorry for potentially quite a few Marantz lovers who may have been worrying about something for no reasons."

@PENG :Maybe my comment came across a little curt or maybe a little crass, It surely wasn't my intention. I asked for a little more clarification of Deckard71 comment. I'll try to improve my wording when posting a follow-up comment to other members. I know on credible forums as, "AH or ASR", using, "wrong or assumption or assumed" could be taken as shot at someone's credibility when fact finding. But to my defense, the fire was started before I jumped in. Deckerd71, kicked that door opened when he challenged Gene to throw the gauntlet down.
 
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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
"If @Tankini bought his Marantz already, and he wants to use his own external DAC for 2 channel stereo, he has no worry and we don't need to feel sorry for him. In anything, I feel sorry for potentially quite a few Marantz lovers who may have been worrying about something for no reasons."

@PENG :Maybe my comment came across a little curt or maybe a little crass, It surely wasn't my intention. I asked for a little more clarification of Deckard71 comment. I'll try to improve my wording when posting a follow-up comment to other members. I know on credible forums as, "AH or ASR", using, "wrong or assumption or assumed" could be taken as shot at someone's credibility when fact finding. But to my owe defense, the fire was started before I jumped in. Deckerd71, kicked that door opened when he challenged Gene to throw the gauntlet down.
I don't think anyone felt you said or did anything wrong. As you correctly pointed out when that gentleman kept doubling down and was pretty rude about it even when posters where trying to be nice and discuss it with him that's when things heated up.

Usually everyone is without exception pretty nice to each other but every know and again you'll get a poster that just gets upset when something they believe doesn't match up with everybody else and they become defensive and confrontational. Members will try to be chill about it but eventually they will have enough of the person and start to push back.

But you don't ever come across that way your very easy to talk to.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I again confirmed with the engineer that designed this unit and all related Denon and Marantz product that there is a true analog bypass. My measurements also confirmed this.
Hello Gene, we always trust you as we know you have a contact in their technical group, in additional to of course their marketing team such as Phil Jones at Masimo, formally Sound United, and the fact that you are an EE with many years in audio/video electronics certainly helps reinforcing your credibility/authority in the technical matters related to audio/video. There is no need for you to get confirmation from the engineering group in D+M in this case, but thank you very much for doing it regardless, it just show how open minded you are, and that's reassuring for those who come to this site for answers to technical enquiries such as this analog bypass thing.

Now I do have a question for you, one of the reasons that I found often cited on forums, including AVSF and ASR, for people to doubt the D+M's analog bypass feature is, they wonder why then when put in direct mode, using analog inputs, they could see that limited bass management, that is, speaker small, distances, crossovers still seem to be in effect, yet Audyssey would, expectedly, by disabled.

I questioned him on that with my follow up:

Customer By Web (02/08/2020 02:38 PM)
Thank you for your response. So if in direct/pure direct the signal bypasses the ADC/DAC and DSP, then how come even when direct or pure direct are selected, the speaker distance/delay and crossover settings seem to remain in effect?

Thanks again

and got the following response:

Response By Email (NJ Customer Support) (02/10/2020 05:53 PM)

Looking at the end of the Volume IC trace, I do see there's a Tone Control (crossover) which would explain the low frequency output to the sub in Direct Mode.

Thanks,
Marantz NA

Customer By Web (02/08/2020 02:38 PM)
I then went back to your review on the AVR-5805 because you said something there, and found your comments as follow, under the preamp analysis section:

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review | Audioholics

The light blue trace represents analog output frequency response of the main channels via analog input signal with no bass management applied. The green trace represents the bass management applied with a crossover setting of 80Hz. Notice that no A/D to D/A conversion stage took place to apply bass management as indicated by the lack of brickwall filter response at high frequencies. At first, I didn't understand this until I pinged Denon and they informed me of a completely independent bass management system done in the analog domain to ensure a true analog signal path was maintained. Audiophiles and fanatics can rejoice. Now you can have a true analog bypass with proper bass management (if needed). This is a truly incredible and thoughtful feature.

1701605271185.png
So, my question is, are the current D+M models implementing the same technique and that's the reason why the basic bass management is preserved even in direct mode when using the stereo analog inputs? Could you get an answer from your contact in engineering? I don't know how you would frame your question to get them to give you the answer, but they should know that this unusual feature of preserving some bass management in direct mode/analog input is confusing even the technically savvy D+M users!

By the way, Gene, every time I read your review on the AVR-5800 I couldn't help but say to myself, this is not a review, it is a book on the most expensive and heaviest Denon AVR, or AVR ever made, including the Yamaha RX-Z9, complete with editorial, notes, bench test results and analysis into some important technical details.

I have to ask, how long did it take you to complete the review of the AVR-5805. I couldn't believe you even included an Q&A session with Chris Kyriakakis. That also reveal another internet hearsay that claimed Audyssey only deal with magnitude correction, below is that part of the Q&A:

Audioholics: How is this system different than others on the market that typically use a variable PEQ?
Chris: There are two fundamental differences:

(i) MultEQ is not a parametric method that uses IIR filters for a number of bands. Instead it uses FIR filters. The advantage is that this allows both time and frequency domain correction, whereas IIR-based PEQ methods can only correct the magnitude response


For those who don't want to pay for the DL licenses yet, should feel a little better, knowing that Audyssey does deal with the time domain/impulse response, since day 1!!

In my opinion, all serious audioholics, at least those interested in objective measurements, should read the AVR-5805 review, at least twice because there are too many details that require serious thinking to understand and interpret the test results, even with Gene's helpful explanation notes.

I have never seen such a detailed review by anyone else, not JA, not Amir.

Lastly, given your contribution to D+M over the years, why not ask them for a AVR-A1H and do what you did with the AVR-5805, that is, if you can still afford to spend so much to do such a review. If that happens, you probably should include an interview with Dirac Live's Dr. Johansson, not Audyssey this time.;)

Thanks again for such an incredible review/analysis.

So, let me post the link again:
It is a 1 to 2 hours reading though, or longer, depending on how technically oriented the reader is.

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review | Audioholics
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Hello Gene, we always trust you as we know you have a contact in their technical group, in additional to of course their marketing team such as Phil Jones at Masimo, formally Sound United, and the fact that you are an EE with many years in audio/video electronics certainly helps reinforcing your credibility/authority in the technical matters related to audio/video. There is no need for you to get confirmation from the engineering group in D+M in this case, but thank you very much for doing it regardless, it just show how open minded you are, and that's reassuring for those who come to this site for answers to technical enquiries such as this analog bypass thing.

Now I do have a question for you, one of the reasons that I found often cited on forums, including AVSF and ASR, for people to doubt the D+M's analog bypass feature is, they wonder why then when put in direct mode, using analog inputs, they could see that limited bass management, that is, speaker small, distances, crossovers still seem to be in effect, yet Audyssey would, expectedly, by disabled.

I questioned him on that with my follow up:




and got the following response:



I then went back to your review on the AVR-5805 because you said something there, and found your comments as follow, under the preamp analysis section:

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review | Audioholics



So, my question is, are the current D+M models implementing the same technique and that's the reason why the basic bass management is preserved even in direct mode when using the stereo analog inputs? Could you get an answer from your contact in engineering? I don't know how you would frame your question to get them to give you the answer, but they should know that this unusual feature of preserving some bass management in direct mode/analog input is confusing even the technically savvy D+M users!

By the way, Gene, every time I read your review on the AVR-5800 I couldn't help but say to myself, this is not a review, it is a book on the most expensive and heaviest Denon AVR, or AVR ever made, including the Yamaha RX-Z9, complete with editorial, notes, bench test results and analysis into some important technical details.

I have to ask, how long did it take you to complete the review of the AVR-5805. I couldn't believe you even included an Q&A session with Chris Kyriakakis. That also reveal another internet hearsay that claimed Audyssey only deal with magnitude correction, below is that part of the Q&A:

Audioholics: How is this system different than others on the market that typically use a variable PEQ?
Chris: There are two fundamental differences:

(i) MultEQ is not a parametric method that uses IIR filters for a number of bands. Instead it uses FIR filters. The advantage is that this allows both time and frequency domain correction, whereas IIR-based PEQ methods can only correct the magnitude response


For those who don't want to pay for the DL licenses yet, should feel a little better, knowing that Audyssey does deal with the time domain/impulse response, since day 1!!

In my opinion, all serious audioholics, at least those interested in objective measurements, should read the AVR-5805 review, at least twice because there are too many details that require serious thinking to understand and interpret the test results, even with Gene's helpful explanation notes.

I have never seen such a detailed review by anyone else, not JA, not Amir.

Lastly, given your contribution to D+M over the years, why not ask them for a AVR-A1H and do what you did with the AVR-5805, that is, if you can still afford to spend so much to do such a review. If that happens, you probably should include an interview with Dirac Live's Dr. Johansson, not Audyssey this time.;)

Thanks again for such an incredible review/analysis.

So, let me post the link again:
It is a 1 to 2 hours reading though, or longer, depending on how technically oriented the reader is.

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review | Audioholics
Yeah. The Pure Direct + Sub/LFE output is one feature I truly miss from Denon/Marantz. If only Yamaha would copy this.
 
Tankini

Tankini

Full Audioholic
Don't bet the house just bet him the cow out front
Ooh wait, Cow isn't a Him, its a She. That's all I'll state about a Cows anatomy.

SO, @Danzilla31 got any Twizzlers sticks to chew on? I like the Red Cherry ones myself while I'm contemplating and collecting my thoughts before I comment on a post, doesn't always work. Sometimes stuff just spews out, character defect I guess. :) ;)

@Danzilla31 Okay, I see where your going with this comment, (Don't bet the house, just bet him and the cash cow out front".) fixed it.:)
 
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M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
Look out...he's back. Now he's up on avsforum ranting his same non-sense. Good lord.
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Look out...he's back. Now he's up on avsforum ranting his same non-sense. Good lord.
At least he's not here doing it. I peeked over onto that thread. Your doing a good job keeping him wound up over their good job providing distraction for us

If you keep it up we will give you something as a show of gratitude

@AcuDefTechGuy will give you the cow that lives on his front lawn.

;)
 
M

multisport4me

Junior Audioholic
At least he's not here doing it. I peeked over onto that thread. Your doing a good job keeping him wound up over their good job providing distraction for us

If you keep it up we will give you something as a show of gratitude

@AcuDefTechGuy will give you the cow that lives on his front lawn.

;)
I need to stop as well - I'm letting him draw me in. I don't know why he bugs me, but he does. I frankly can give a rats a&$ if it has analog passthrough or not. If it doesn't, that would mean, as Peng said, the ADC was significantly upgraded. But I doubt it - so now I'm wondering if he has his speakers set to small with a crossover? That would require going through the DSP. Then his whole rant about 7.1 inputs...omg...next thing you know he'll be griping that it doesn't have an s-video input. Just buy something else and move on!!!!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I need to stop as well - I'm letting him draw me in. I don't know why he bugs me, but he does. I frankly can give a rats a&$ if it has analog passthrough or not. If it doesn't, that would mean, as Peng said, the ADC was significantly upgraded. But I doubt it - so now I'm wondering if he has his speakers set to small with a crossover? That would require going through the DSP. Then his whole rant about 7.1 inputs...omg...next thing you know he'll be griping that it doesn't have an s-video input. Just buy something else and move on!!!!
Just for a good laugh guys, check this out:
Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review | Page 9 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

eventually, he go this, as expected:

Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review | Page 9 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
So moving right along....

...there was once a rumor that the AV10 may be Roon Ready certified in the next firmware. Has anyone heard any more about that? Of course, I wonder if the Harman acquisition will now put the kibosh on Anthem and D&M adopting Roon Ready? Heos is a dumpster fire, so I hope not.
That would make the AV10 a strong contender for Best AVP Ever! Unfortunately, I suspect D+M is too heavily invested in HEOS to add Roon support. They don't even support Chromecast built-in, which is similar to RAAT in terms of broad concept (containerized execution). The Harman acquisition probably doesn't help.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Hello Gene, we always trust you as we know you have a contact in their technical group, in additional to of course their marketing team such as Phil Jones at Masimo, formally Sound United, and the fact that you are an EE with many years in audio/video electronics certainly helps reinforcing your credibility/authority in the technical matters related to audio/video. There is no need for you to get confirmation from the engineering group in D+M in this case, but thank you very much for doing it regardless, it just show how open minded you are, and that's reassuring for those who come to this site for answers to technical enquiries such as this analog bypass thing.

Now I do have a question for you, one of the reasons that I found often cited on forums, including AVSF and ASR, for people to doubt the D+M's analog bypass feature is, they wonder why then when put in direct mode, using analog inputs, they could see that limited bass management, that is, speaker small, distances, crossovers still seem to be in effect, yet Audyssey would, expectedly, by disabled.

I questioned him on that with my follow up:




and got the following response:



I then went back to your review on the AVR-5805 because you said something there, and found your comments as follow, under the preamp analysis section:

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review | Audioholics



So, my question is, are the current D+M models implementing the same technique and that's the reason why the basic bass management is preserved even in direct mode when using the stereo analog inputs? Could you get an answer from your contact in engineering? I don't know how you would frame your question to get them to give you the answer, but they should know that this unusual feature of preserving some bass management in direct mode/analog input is confusing even the technically savvy D+M users!

By the way, Gene, every time I read your review on the AVR-5800 I couldn't help but say to myself, this is not a review, it is a book on the most expensive and heaviest Denon AVR, or AVR ever made, including the Yamaha RX-Z9, complete with editorial, notes, bench test results and analysis into some important technical details.

I have to ask, how long did it take you to complete the review of the AVR-5805. I couldn't believe you even included an Q&A session with Chris Kyriakakis. That also reveal another internet hearsay that claimed Audyssey only deal with magnitude correction, below is that part of the Q&A:

Audioholics: How is this system different than others on the market that typically use a variable PEQ?
Chris: There are two fundamental differences:

(i) MultEQ is not a parametric method that uses IIR filters for a number of bands. Instead it uses FIR filters. The advantage is that this allows both time and frequency domain correction, whereas IIR-based PEQ methods can only correct the magnitude response


For those who don't want to pay for the DL licenses yet, should feel a little better, knowing that Audyssey does deal with the time domain/impulse response, since day 1!!

In my opinion, all serious audioholics, at least those interested in objective measurements, should read the AVR-5805 review, at least twice because there are too many details that require serious thinking to understand and interpret the test results, even with Gene's helpful explanation notes.

I have never seen such a detailed review by anyone else, not JA, not Amir.

Lastly, given your contribution to D+M over the years, why not ask them for a AVR-A1H and do what you did with the AVR-5805, that is, if you can still afford to spend so much to do such a review. If that happens, you probably should include an interview with Dirac Live's Dr. Johansson, not Audyssey this time.;)

Thanks again for such an incredible review/analysis.

So, let me post the link again:
It is a 1 to 2 hours reading though, or longer, depending on how technically oriented the reader is.

Denon AVR-5805 AV Receiver Review | Audioholics
Much appreciated on your compliments. The 5805 deserved that level of coverage. I absolutely adored that machine for many years. It took me a couple of months to write up that review and double check my measurements and get the interview stuff organized and finally fact checked by Denon. I wish I could spend that much time on a product today but I'm wearing too many hats trying to run this business. I'd welcome a local EE to come and help with measurement reports but that's be a difficult thing to find.

I doubt the AV10 has an analog direct with bass management option but I did send this question to the Marantz engineer so I will follow up here if he answers. I didn't bother to check that bc almost nobody would use this gear like that. As for Dirac, I don't believe it's currently implemented correctly on the Denon/Marantz products. It could NOT nail the channel delays on my mains or subs and I ran it 3 separate times. I admittedly didn't pursue this topic hard enough with D&M due to time constraints and the fact I achieved really good results with Audyssey MultEQ XT w PC. I will revist once D&M gets a Dirac upgrade, hopefully to ART in the future....
 
Tankini

Tankini

Full Audioholic
So moving right along....

...there was once a rumor that the AV10 may be Roon Ready certified in the next firmware. Has anyone heard any more about that? Of course, I wonder if the Harman acquisition will now put the kibosh on Anthem and D&M adopting Roon Ready? Heos is a dumpster fire, so I hope not.
"...there was once a rumor that the AV10 may be Roon Ready certified in the next firmware."

So, Marantz AV10 isn't Roon (Room) certified at release for consumers? Over on Genes, Yamaha thread, many we're bashing Yamaha for releasing a product not yet ready.. "Beta"
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'd welcome a local EE to come and help with measurement reports but that's be a difficult thing to find.

and I wish I was local, and would actually love to do some measurements for you. In fact, I would buy the $500 QA403 (Matt might have one, or the older model)... The only thing that hold me back is, after I finished measured my own a dozen preamps, power amps, processors and dacs, where would I find gear to measure, unlike you, manufacturers won't be sending any to someone unknown to them, and who is located north of the border.:D
I doubt the AV10 has an analog direct with bass management option but I did send this question to the Marantz engineer so I will follow up here if he answers. I didn't bother to check that bc almost nobody would use this gear like that. As for Dirac, I don't believe it's currently implemented correctly on the Denon/Marantz products. It could NOT nail the channel delays on my mains or subs and I ran it 3 separate times. I admittedly didn't pursue this topic hard enough with D&M due to time constraints and the fact I achieved really good results with Audyssey MultEQ XT w PC. I will revist once D&M gets a Dirac upgrade, hopefully to ART in the future....
Thank you for your insight. I was skeptical about reports that Dirac had issues with their implementation of D+M, thanks to you and Matt, that would likely help speed up a fix soon, and thanks again for clearing that up.
 

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