Mar a Lago raided by FBI

cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
And Trump apparently obstructed justice as well.

If Trump just had delivered all the papers when asked this would have gone away a long time ago.
So correct on both. His arrogance took over, like always.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
More potentially wonderful news for Trump. What a cluster F. To avoid doubt, I'm not defending Trump on the basis that Biden F'd up. Nevertheless, my fear is that the Biden F ups will make it more difficult for the DOJ to charge Trump.

>>>Another batch of classified government records were found by President Joe Biden’s legal team, following the initial discovery of classified documents at his former think tank office in Washington this past fall. According to people briefed on the matter, the additional classified documents were found in a second location during searches that took place after lawyers found the initial classified documents. That effort led to the discovery of additional documents of interest to federal officials reviewing the matter, one of the sources said.<<< (emphasis added)


There are clearly significant differences between the Biden and Trump situations, but the Biden F ups create headaches for the DOJ.

As discussed in the article by Tribe at justsecurity.org (link below), there are at least three document-related laws that Trump could be charged with: willful removal under section 2071, theft of a government document under Section 641, and Espionage Act Violations (Section 793). Based on the facts available to the public, there is quite a bit of evidence to support an obstruction of justice count as well.


Section 2071 is the one that is most difficult to distinguish (just my opinion, of course).

To the extent one is relying on the fact that Biden apparently returned the documents as soon as he became aware of them (assuming he somehow didn't know about them previously), the question is: where does Section 2071 state that returning the documents negates removing the documents in the first place?


Here's a DOJ statement with regards to Section 2071:

>>>There are several important aspects to this offense. First, it is a specific intent crime. This means that the defendant must act intentionally with knowledge that he is violating the law. See United States v. Simpson, 460 F.2d 515, 518 (9th Cir. 1972). Moreover, one case has suggested that this specific intent requires that the defendant know that the documents involved are public records. See United States v. DeGroat, 30 F. 764, 765 (E.D.Mich. 1887).

The acts proscribed by this section are defined broadly. Essentially three types of conduct are prohibited by 18 U.S.C. § 2071(a). These are: (1) concealment, removal, mutilation, obliteration or destruction of records; (2) any attempt to commit these proscribed acts; and (3) carrying away any record with the intent to conceal, remove, mutilate or destroy it. It should be noted that all of these acts involve either misappropriation of or damage to public records. This has led one court to conclude that the mere photocopying of these records does not violate 18 U.S.C. § 2071. See United States v. Rosner, 352 F. Supp. 915, 919-22 (S.D.N.Y. 1972).<<< (emphasis added)

Again, where does it say that returning documents negates taking them?

Failure to return the documents could constitute an additional crime (obstruction), but Section 2071 does not state that returning the documents absolves one of all potential liability. There's no doubt it would be factor that the DOJ would consider in it's decision, but it's not a slam dunk.

There is of course a decent argument that Trump must have known he was violating the law (since it is not possible to read minds, the fact question of his mental state would ultimately go to a jury and they'd infer whether or not the evidence established beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew he was violating the law).

Is there evidence that Biden must have known he was violating the law? At this stage it's unclear, but how could he not know the law as a fomer senator and after 8 years as the Vice President of the United States? How could the documents end up in his possession without his knowledge?

Here's the basic "problem" for the DOJ as I see it. If you are Garland, do you indict Trump for all of the document-related crimes and obstruction but not indict Biden for anything? (in reality a sitting president cannot be indicted under DOJ guidelines, so the real question would be "do you state that the facts wouldn't justify an indictment of Biden?"). It's entirely possible, but it's a bit, shall we say, awkward. The DOJ would need some lawyerly massaging of the law in order to conclude that Biden is blameless, or close enough to avoid charges (don't get me wrong, there are plenty of ways to do this).

In terms of indicting Trump, Garland does not appear to be especially anxious to do so due to the issues involved (i.e. even though Garland says all decisions will be based on the facts and the law, there's no doubt he is considering the entire situation). My sense is that Garland is looking for a way to avoid a full blown criminal trial of Trump, but Trump has been pushing Garland in that direction (Garland: "Are you feeling lucky punk?") .

It remains to be seen exactly how many government documents were in Biden's possession (assuming he didn't lose possession of any) and the circumstances concerning how it occurred. And of course we don't know what the special prosecutor will report to Garland in the Mar-a-Lago case, or what the U.S. attorney reviewing the Biden documents situation will have to say.

At this stage, the only thing that is certain is that the orange person in Florida will howl incessantly about the Biden documents.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I seem to remember mentioning geese and sauce... We'll see. I don't know if this is simply an oversight or they just went the omission route. At least it wasn't a forced issue for getting the documents back where they belong.

And this is what I don't get about Trump. Just do the right thing douchebag.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I seem to remember mentioning geese and sauce... We'll see. I don't know if this is simply an oversight or they just went the omission route. At least it wasn't a forced issue for getting the documents back where they belong.

And this is what I don't get about Trump. Just do the right thing douchebag.
There's geese and sauce, and...apples and oranges. While this is a needless and clumsy own goal by the Biden administration, the differences between the two cases are vast. What's not to get about Trump? He's as thick as a brick; the anti-Forrest Gump.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
There's geese and sauce, and...apples and oranges. While this is a needless and clumsy own goal by the Biden administration, the differences between the two cases are vast. What's not to get about Trump? He's as thick as a brick; the anti-Forrest Gump.
The root problem is exactly the same dude. It's the response that is different.

Classic example of being hoisted by your own petards. I never knew political theater was this entertaining.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
The root problem is exactly the same dude. It's the response that is different.

Classic example of being hoisted by your own petards. I never knew political theater was this entertaining.
It appears that Biden (and/or his staff) had the docs while he was entitled to have them, then they were overlooked, resulting in the failure to return them. They were voluntarily - without prompting - returned.

Trump essentially stole docs, then refused to return them when ordered to, resulting in the FBI having to go in and get them.

The Biden administration has egg all over its face and it complicates prosecuting Trump. But, it is not the exact same root problem.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
It appears that Biden (and/or his staff) had the docs while he was entitled to have them, then they were overlooked, resulting in the failure to return them. They were voluntarily - without prompting - returned.

Trump essentially stole docs, then refused to return them when ordered to, resulting in the FBI having to go in and get them.

The Biden administration has egg all over its face and it complicates prosecuting Trump. But, it is not the exact same root problem.
Then we aren't in disagreement with the base tenements: They both had classified documentation when they shouldn't have. That part needs to be treated equally.

Doing a proper follow and disclosure and having transparency is where things diverge.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Garland has appointed a special prosecutor to investigate Biden's handling of classified documents. And so the document world turns.

>>>WASHINGTON — Attorney General Merrick B. Garland appointed a special counsel on Thursday to look into President Biden’s handling of classified documents from his time in the Obama administration. The appointment of Robert K. Hur, a veteran prosecutor who worked in the Trump administration, came after the White House revealed this week that documents from Mr. Biden’s time as vice president had been found in two locations.<<<

 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
^
Had to be done, no way around it. Will be interesting to see the outcome.

Frankly, I hope this keeps [helps] Biden [decide] from running again and opens the door to a new group of candidates.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
It appears that Biden (and/or his staff) had the docs while he was entitled to have them, then they were overlooked, resulting in the failure to return them. . . . Trump essentially stole docs
Here's a blurb from the NY Times:

>>>As president, Mr. Trump is said to have periodically taken records from the Oval Office to the residential areas of the White House. During the chaos of his last days in office after he sought to cling to power, those files were apparently packed up with personal items like clothing and mementos and shipped to Mar-a-Lago.

It is not yet publicly known how records from the Obama administration wound up at the Penn Biden Center and Mr. Biden’s house, but the White House has suggested that boxes of files may have been shipped to both locations “in the course of the 2017 transition.” (It has also said, however, that Mr. Biden only began using the think tank office in “mid-2017.”)<<<


If this is accurate, in one case the files that had been in the residential areas of the White House were packed and shipped during Trump's last days in office and in Biden's case the files were (possibly) shipped in the course of the 2017 transition (I have not seen any reports about when the Biden documents were packed).

On the face of it, returning the documents (Biden) vs obfuscation/lying/flooding the zone with sh*t (orange thing) strikes me as being the major difference.
 
davidscott

davidscott

Audioholic Ninja
Investigate Biden and bring this to trial if deemed so. Maybe Joe and Trump could be cellmates :)
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I think the reason Garland appointed a special counsel is right here:

>>>Mr. Biden, [Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary] said, “was kept informed throughout,” but does not know what is in the documents. “The search is complete, he is confident in this process, and I will leave it there,” she added.

But her account of the discovery of the original batch of documents appeared at odds with the Justice Department timetable. “We did this by the book, and what I mean by that is the moment that the lawyers discovered that the papers, the documents were there, they reached out to the archives, they reached out to the Department of Justice,” she said.

In fact, according to the department, the White House informed the National Archives and Records Administration but not Justice. The department learned about the documents only when notified by the archives. A person familiar with the Biden team’s thinking, who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive legal matters, said the president’s lawyers had contacted the archives with the understanding that it would inform other agencies that needed to know.<<<


More directly, here it is: "they reached out to the archives, they reached out to the Department of Justice.” This is a lie. Lying about something that involves the DOJ doesn't fly at the DOJ.

Do want your own special counsel? Lie about the DOJ.

This also triggered my "lawyer bull sh*t detector": "A person familiar with the Biden team’s thinking, who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive legal matters, said the president’s lawyers had contacted the archives with the understanding that it would inform other agencies that needed to know."

Nice try, anonymous spin person, but that dog don't hunt. No, the lawyers contacted the archives hoping the archives would not notify the DOJ and hoping the whole thing would not be made public. (by the way, the real reason this person is not saying this on the record is because they don't want to get publicly torched if the facts come out).

We're being fed huge pile of smoking spin. Biden was hoping to sweep the whole thing under the rug without it ever becoming public.

I can't prove the above, but is sure as h*ll looks like that's what happened.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I think the reason Garland appointed a special counsel is right here:

>>>Mr. Biden, [Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary] said, “was kept informed throughout,” but does not know what is in the documents. “The search is complete, he is confident in this process, and I will leave it there,” she added.

But her account of the discovery of the original batch of documents appeared at odds with the Justice Department timetable. “We did this by the book, and what I mean by that is the moment that the lawyers discovered that the papers, the documents were there, they reached out to the archives, they reached out to the Department of Justice,” she said.

In fact, according to the department, the White House informed the National Archives and Records Administration but not Justice. The department learned about the documents only when notified by the archives. A person familiar with the Biden team’s thinking, who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive legal matters, said the president’s lawyers had contacted the archives with the understanding that it would inform other agencies that needed to know.<<<


More directly, here it is: "they reached out to the archives, they reached out to the Department of Justice.” This is a lie. Lying about something that involves the DOJ doesn't fly at the DOJ.

Do want your own special counsel? Lie about the DOJ.

This also triggered my "lawyer bull sh*t detector": "A person familiar with the Biden team’s thinking, who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive legal matters, said the president’s lawyers had contacted the archives with the understanding that it would inform other agencies that needed to know."

Nice try, anonymous spin person, but that dog don't hunt. No, the lawyers contacted the archives hoping the archives would not notify the DOJ and hoping the whole thing would not be made public. (by the way, the real reason this person is not saying this on the record is because they don't want to get publicly torched if the facts come out).

We're being fed huge pile of smoking spin. Biden was hoping to sweep the whole thing under the rug without it ever becoming public.

I can't prove the above, but is sure as h*ll looks like that's what happened.
It looks like the dissembling and obfuscation may be worse than the actual possession of the documents - at least from a political standpoint.
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I think the reason Garland appointed a special counsel is right here:

>>>Mr. Biden, [Karine Jean-Pierre, the White House press secretary] said, “was kept informed throughout,” but does not know what is in the documents. “The search is complete, he is confident in this process, and I will leave it there,” she added.

But her account of the discovery of the original batch of documents appeared at odds with the Justice Department timetable. “We did this by the book, and what I mean by that is the moment that the lawyers discovered that the papers, the documents were there, they reached out to the archives, they reached out to the Department of Justice,” she said.

In fact, according to the department, the White House informed the National Archives and Records Administration but not Justice. The department learned about the documents only when notified by the archives. A person familiar with the Biden team’s thinking, who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive legal matters, said the president’s lawyers had contacted the archives with the understanding that it would inform other agencies that needed to know.<<<


More directly, here it is: "they reached out to the archives, they reached out to the Department of Justice.” This is a lie. Lying about something that involves the DOJ doesn't fly at the DOJ.

Do want your own special counsel? Lie about the DOJ.

This also triggered my "lawyer bull sh*t detector": "A person familiar with the Biden team’s thinking, who requested anonymity to discuss sensitive legal matters, said the president’s lawyers had contacted the archives with the understanding that it would inform other agencies that needed to know."

Nice try, anonymous spin person, but that dog don't hunt. No, the lawyers contacted the archives hoping the archives would not notify the DOJ and hoping the whole thing would not be made public. (by the way, the real reason this person is not saying this on the record is because they don't want to get publicly torched if the facts come out).

We're being fed huge pile of smoking spin. Biden was hoping to sweep the whole thing under the rug without it ever becoming public.

I can't prove the above, but is sure as h*ll looks like that's what happened.
The hard part to know is whether or not it is the responsibility of the archives or the lawyers to reach out to the DOJ. If the 'owners' of the documents are the archives, then it absolutely would fall under their ownership to inform specific other parties that may need to be involved of any such incidents as they arise. It is not Biden, or his team that owns that burden of responsibility. Kind of like if someone steals you car, then returns your car to you (for some reason), it is then up to YOU to notify the police, it is not a requirement of the person who stole your car.

Lawyers can argue otherwise, and then courts will decide. But, suggesting that the group who has been tasked with ownership and maintenance of records is not the one who also reports mishandling seems crazy. Not that the government isn't crazy in all directions.

Is there any doubt in my mind that Biden's lawyers specifically didn't inform the DOJ? Nope! I get that completely. But, unless it is clearly specified, which is highly unlikely, that those who may be in violation of classification laws must notify the DOJ and not merely reach out to inform the archives, then this becomes a grey area, at the very least.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated as this is an obvious problem. It is a problem that needs some pathway to solve this problem. Trump had classified documents, Biden had classified documents... WHY DID THIS HAPPEN? What steps need to be implemented to STOP this from occurring in the future?

Should criminal charges be filed against either person? That depends heavily on the specifics of the situations. They are vastly different and most definitely not all classified documents are the same. Secret and TS/SCI documentation is vastly different and contains significantly different levels of information. I was once told that a design that was done for an audiovisual system was classified secret. It was done using STANDARD AV design practices and a laptop and the engineer not having any clearance whatsoever. So, what may be considered 'secret' by some, is often just rubbish. So, yeah, context actually does matter.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
The hard part to know is whether or not it is the responsibility of the archives or the lawyers to reach out to the DOJ. If the 'owners' of the documents are the archives, then it absolutely would fall under their ownership to inform specific other parties that may need to be involved of any such incidents as they arise. It is not Biden, or his team that owns that burden of responsibility. Kind of like if someone steals you car, then returns your car to you (for some reason), it is then up to YOU to notify the police, it is not a requirement of the person who stole your car.

Lawyers can argue otherwise, and then courts will decide. But, suggesting that the group who has been tasked with ownership and maintenance of records is not the one who also reports mishandling seems crazy. Not that the government isn't crazy in all directions.

Is there any doubt in my mind that Biden's lawyers specifically didn't inform the DOJ? Nope! I get that completely. But, unless it is clearly specified, which is highly unlikely, that those who may be in violation of classification laws must notify the DOJ and not merely reach out to inform the archives, then this becomes a grey area, at the very least.

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be investigated as this is an obvious problem. It is a problem that needs some pathway to solve this problem. Trump had classified documents, Biden had classified documents... WHY DID THIS HAPPEN? What steps need to be implemented to STOP this from occurring in the future?

Should criminal charges be filed against either person? That depends heavily on the specifics of the situations. They are vastly different and most definitely not all classified documents are the same. Secret and TS/SCI documentation is vastly different and contains significantly different levels of information. I was once told that a design that was done for an audiovisual system was classified secret. It was done using STANDARD AV design practices and a laptop and the engineer not having any clearance whatsoever. So, what may be considered 'secret' by some, is often just rubbish. So, yeah, context actually does matter.
My theory is the White House lied and said they contacted the DOJ in an effort to avoid questions about why the DOJ was involved.

I suspect the archives people asked Biden's lawyers if there were any more documents after they received the first batch of documents. They were probably told something to the effect that "We're not aware of any more documents."

I don't think Biden initially had any intention of searching for additional documents because wanted to able to say he wasn't aware of any more documents (the hear no evil see no evil approach).

The archives people were probably not satisfied with the answers they were getting, so they referred it to the DOJ (see CNN link below). Once the DOJ got involved and started asking questions, Biden was essentially forced to do additional searching because he didn't want to stonewall the DOJ and force them to take action.

That's just a theory.

Also, one of Biden's personal attorneys stated that the first batch of documents were discovered by Biden's personal attorneys while closing out the Penn Biden Center.

>>>“The documents were discovered when the President’s personal attorneys were packing files housed in a locked closet to prepare to vacate office space at the Penn Biden Center in Washington, D.C. . . . “The discovery of these documents was made by the President’s attorneys,” Sauber added. . . . In November, NARA sent a referral to the Justice Department to look into the matter, a source with knowledge of the situation told CNN.<<<

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html

It's curious that he would hire his personal attorneys to close out his private office. Lawyers have an ethical duty not to disclose a client's confidential information, and communications between lawyers and clients are protected by attorney-client privilege. If Biden knew or suspected there might be something "bad" at the office, hiring lawyers to pack up everything would make sense. That's speculative, of course. Hiring lawyers might not mean much of anything.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
The hard part to know is whether or not it is the responsibility of the archives or the lawyers to reach out to the DOJ. If the 'owners' of the documents are the archives, then it absolutely would fall under their ownership to inform specific other parties that may need to be involved of any such incidents as they arise. It is not Biden, or his team that owns that burden of responsibility. Kind of like if someone steals you car, then returns your car to you (for some reason), it is then up to YOU to notify the police, it is not a requirement of the person who stole your car.
I doubt that there's a specific law or rule, but there's a difference between run of the mill government documents and classified documents. Classified documents potentially impact national security. To my mind Biden does have the burden to report improper storage of classified documents to the DOJ so they can evaluate the situation.

The archives may also have a duty to notify DOJ, but relying on the archives in this situation seems like poor judgement, if nothing else.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top