Mar a Lago raided by FBI

[Trell]

Interesting comparing what Republicans and Democrats said before and after Biden caight having classified documents after leaving the office as Vice President.

 

[Mikado463]

A little levity here - the commentary is hilarious!

what's sad about ole Sleepy is when asked awhile back he stated he owned a '68 Corvette, didn't even know the year of his own car ! As for the house in De with the classified docs and the '1967' Corvette I understand Hunter had been living there for a couple of years, very interesting........

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

And this is what I don't get about Trump. Just do the right thing douchebag.

Is that even possible for him? Did he ever in his life do that?

 

[Trell]

Now that the House GOP is huffing and puffing as to why they only will investigate Biden and not Trump for mishandling of classified documents, here we have Pence as well.

Time for a third Special Counsel.

Classified Documents Found at Pence’s Home in Indiana (Published 2023)

The documents were “inadvertently boxed and transported” to the former vice president’s home at the end of the Trump administration, Mr. Pence’s representative wrote in a letter to the National Archives.

www.nytimes.com

>>>Aides to former Vice President Mike Pence found a “small number of documents” with classified markings at his home in Indiana during a search last week, according to an adviser to Mr. Pence.

The documents were “inadvertently boxed and transported” to Mr. Pence’s home at the end of President Donald J. Trump’s administration, Greg Jacob, Mr. Pence’s representative for dealing with records related to the presidency, wrote in a letter to the National Archives.

The discovery of the classified documents in Mr. Pence’s home was reported earlier by CNN.
The letter, dated Jan. 18, said that the former vice president was unaware of the existence of the documents and reiterated that he took seriously the handling of classified materials and wanted to help.

Mr. Jacob wrote that Mr. Pence relied on an outside lawyer after classified documents were found in recent days at the residence and former private office of President Biden. Mr. Jacob also said the lawyer could not specify anything more about the documents because the lawyer had stopped looking once it was clear the documents had classified markings.
...
<<<

 

[mtrycrafts]

Now that the House GOP is huffing and puffing as to why they only will investigate Biden and not Trump for mishandling of classified documents, here we have Pence as well.

Time for a third Special Counsel.

Classified Documents Found at Pence’s Home in Indiana (Published 2023)

The documents were “inadvertently boxed and transported” to the former vice president’s home at the end of the Trump administration, Mr. Pence’s representative wrote in a letter to the National Archives.

www.nytimes.com

>>>Aides to former Vice President Mike Pence found a “small number of documents” with classified markings at his home in Indiana during a search last week, according to an adviser to Mr. Pence.

The documents were “inadvertently boxed and transported” to Mr. Pence’s home at the end of President Donald J. Trump’s administration, Greg Jacob, Mr. Pence’s representative for dealing with records related to the presidency, wrote in a letter to the National Archives.

The discovery of the classified documents in Mr. Pence’s home was reported earlier by CNN.
The letter, dated Jan. 18, said that the former vice president was unaware of the existence of the documents and reiterated that he took seriously the handling of classified materials and wanted to help.

Mr. Jacob wrote that Mr. Pence relied on an outside lawyer after classified documents were found in recent days at the residence and former private office of President Biden. Mr. Jacob also said the lawyer could not specify anything more about the documents because the lawyer had stopped looking once it was clear the documents had classified markings.
...
<<<

And now the FBI should invite themselves to inspect all his files in the house, attic, crawlspace, everywhere.

 

[jinjuku]

I stick by my statement of political comedy theater.

 

[cpp]

"documents', I would bet money, IF they went to every congressional home or office away from the Capital, they, this Govt Archive group would find some kind of classified documents. This country has worst problems than freaking documents at home. This is nothing but BS,. and one group trying to one up the next. Its getting old. Congress needs to Fix the broken govt, the debt as an example and these documents aren't it. A blind govt running blindly on the media, all for possible votes. Its broke, big time.

 

[Mikado463]

Yeah I wish they would get done with all BS as well. Hell, with all the commotion going on at Biden house in Greenville, De. my poor grandson can't fly his drone he got for Xmas !

 

[Trell]

Yeah I wish they would get done with all BS as well. Hell, with all the commotion going on at Biden house in Greenville, De my poor grandson can't fly his drone he got for Xmas !

He can donate his drone to Ukraine and I’m sure it’ll be put to good use.

 

[cpp]

He can donate his drone to Ukraine and I’m sure it’ll be put to good use.

Add some little missiles to it, for a tactical move.

 

[Mr._Clark]

"documents', I would bet money, IF they went to every congressional home or office away from the Capital, they, this Govt Archive group would find some kind of classified documents. This country has worst problems than freaking documents at home. This is nothing but BS,. and one group trying to one up the next. Its getting old. Congress needs to Fix the broken govt, the debt as an example and these documents aren't it. A blind govt running blindly on the media, all for possible votes. Its broke, big time.

It doesn't really matter what some politician in congress says. It's a little like the ads for the shingles vaccine "I exercise regularly" "Good for you, shingles doesn't care." My response to the politicians in congress blowing hot air about classified documents is "Good for you, the law doesn't care."

(Note to self: find a better meme).

In terms of your bet that they'd find classified documents in every congressional home or office, I'm not so sure. Every single one of them? All 535? Show me the evidence.

Assuming for purposes of discussion that you win the bet and all 535 have some kind of classified documents, not all classified documents and information is equal (I realize you didn't say they were, I'm going off on a tangent). Trump and Biden both mishandled Top Secret SCI documents.

Biden had them:

>>The classified materials included some top-secret files with the “sensitive compartmented information” designation, also known as SCI, which is used for highly sensitive information obtained from intelligence sources.<<<

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/09/politics/joe-biden-classified-documents-upenn/index.html

As did Trump:

>>>The specific nature of the sensitive material that Mr. Trump took from the White House remains unclear. But the 15 boxes Mr. Trump turned over to the archives in January, nearly a year after he left office, included documents from the C.I.A., the National Security Agency and the F.B.I. spanning a variety of topics of national security interest, a person briefed on the matter said. . . . At the conclusion of the search this month, officials left with 26 boxes, including 11 sets of material marked as classified, comprising scores of additional documents. One set had the highest level of classification, top secret/sensitive compartmented information.<<<

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/22/us/politics/trump-mar-a-lago-documents.html

It may be annoying, but the large volume of hot air coming from the Capitol Building doesn't change the facts or the law.

 

[cpp]

the law doesn't care."

Are you saying the law doesn't care about classified documents ? or members in congress don't care.

Its interesting that yesterday " The National Archives and Records Administration, or NARA, sent a letter to representatives of former presidents and vice presidents from the last six presidential administrations covered by the Presidential Records Act (PRA), to re-check their personal records for any classified documents or other presidential records.

 

[Mr._Clark]

Are you saying the law doesn't care about classified documents ? or members in congress don't care.

I meant that the law doesn't care what politicians say.

 

[cpp]

I meant that the law doesn't care what politicians say.

That's for sure.

 

[ryanosaur]

I meant that the law doesn't care what politicians say.

And apparently... Politicians don't really seem to care what the laws say, either. And of course, there are some lawyers that don't seem to phased by written law, either...

I believe this is something we might call a "quagmire," or "sticky wicket."

 

[panteragstk]

And apparently... Politicians don't really seem to care what the laws say, either. And of course, there are some lawyers that don't seem to phased by written law, either...

I believe this is something we might call a "quagmire," or "sticky wicket."

Giggity

 

[Mr._Clark]

I noticed that Robert Hur (the Biden special prosecutor) also prosecuted a case in 2019 involving SCI. The defendant was sentenced to nine years:

>>>U.S. District Judge Richard D. Bennett today sentenced Harold Thomas Martin, III, age 54, of Glen Burnie, Maryland, to nine years in federal prison, followed by three years of supervised release, for willful retention of national defense information. . . .

“For nearly 20 years, Harold Martin betrayed the trust placed in him by stealing and retaining a vast quantity of highly classified national defense information entrusted to him,” stated U.S. Attorney Robert K. Hur. “This sentence, which is one of the longest ever imposed in this type of case, should serve as a warning that we will find and prosecute government employees and contractors who flagrantly violate their duty to protect classified materials.” . . .

Martin held security clearances up to Top Secret and Sensitive Compartmented Information (SCI) at various times. A Top Secret classification means that unauthorized disclosure reasonably could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the United States. An SCI designation compartmentalizes extremely sensitive information. . . .

As detailed in his plea agreement, Martin retained the stolen documents and other classified information at his residence and in his vehicle. Martin knew that the hard copy and digital documents stolen from his workplace contained classified information that related to the national defense and that he was never authorized to retain these documents at his residence or in his vehicle. Martin admitted that he also knew that the unauthorized removal of these materials risked their disclosure, which would be damaging to the national security of the United States and highly useful to its adversaries.

In court documents and at today’s sentencing hearing, the government noted that crimes such as Martin’s not only create a risk of unauthorized disclosure of, or access to, highly classified information, but often require the government to treat the stolen material as compromised, resulting in the government having to take remedial actions including changing or abandoning national security programs. In addition, Martin’s criminal conduct caused the government to expend substantial investigative and analytical resources. The diversion of those resources resulted in significant costs.<<< (emphasis added)

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/former-government-contractor-sentenced-nine-years-federal-prison-willful-retention-national

The facts of each case are different, of course. Still, unlawfully retaining SCI information at an unsecured location is not a trivial matter, no matter how you slice (or spin) it.

 

[Mr._Clark]

And apparently... Politicians don't really seem to care what the laws say, either. And of course, there are some lawyers that don't seem to phased by written law, either...

I believe this is something we might call a "quagmire," or "sticky wicket."

Some politicians do seem to display a rather cavalier attitude to the law. On the other hand, quite a few have been convicted of crimes over the years.

List of American federal politicians convicted of crimes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

David Petraeus was not an elected official, but his case is relevant to the topic at hand. He lied to the FBI but only got probation.

>>>Mr. Petraeus had been a vocal advocate for the close protection of classified information by government officials. “Oaths do matter,” he said in October 2012 after a C.I.A. officer accepted a plea agreement for disclosing sensitive information, “and there are indeed consequences for those who believe they are above the laws that protect our fellow officers and enable American intelligence agencies to operate with the requisite degree of secrecy.”

The officer later received a 30-month sentence. . . . F.B.I. officials were particularly angry over what they viewed as Mr. Holder’s not backing up their agents and allowing Mr. Petraeus to get away with lying to them. <<<

David Petraeus Is Sentenced to Probation in Leak Investigation (Published 2015)

The former C.I.A. director and general in Iraq and Afghanistan was given two years’ probation, which was a disappointment for F.B.I. officials, and a higher-than-expected $100,000 fine.

www.nytimes.com

The NYT article mentions that Petraeus was represented by David Kendal (Kendal represented Clinton in the lawsuit Trump filed naming her as one of many defendants).

 

[Trell]

Someone is in (more?) trouble when the Justice Department wants to use the the crime-fraud exception to compel a Trump lawyer to answer questions before a grand jury.

Prosecutors Seek Trump Lawyer’s Testimony, Suggesting Evidence of Crime (Published 2023)

The Justice Department cited the crime-fraud exception to attorney-client privilege in demanding testimony from a lawyer representing former President Donald Trump in his documents case.

www.nytimes.com

>>>Federal prosecutors overseeing the investigation into former President Donald J. Trump’s handling of classified documents are seeking to pierce assertions of attorney-client privilege and compel one of his lawyers to answer more questions before a grand jury, according to two people familiar with the matter, adding an aggressive new dimension to the inquiry and underscoring the legal peril facing Mr. Trump.

The prosecutors have sought approval from a federal judge to invoke what is known as the crime-fraud exception, which allows them to work around attorney-client privilege when they have reason to believe that legal advice or legal services have been used in furthering a crime. The fact that prosecutors invoked the exception in a sealed motion to compel the testimony of the lawyer, M. Evan Corcoran, suggests that they believe Mr. Trump or his allies might have used Mr. Corcoran’s services in that way.
...
Mr. Corcoran recently appeared before a grand jury in Federal District Court in Washington and is believed to have asserted attorney-client privilege on behalf of Mr. Trump in refusing to answer certain questions related to his representation in the documents investigation, according to three people familiar with the matter.
...
It was also not immediately clear whether the Justice Department suspects misconduct by Mr. Corcoran and Mr. Trump, by Mr. Trump and others or by Mr. Trump alone.
...<<<

 

[Trell]

>>>Attorney Evan Corcoran recused himself from representing former President Donald Trump in the special counsel investigation related to the Mar-a-Lago documents given that he testified for investigators, two sources familiar with the matter told CNN.

Corcoran’s exit, which was first reported by The Washington Post, was an expected development after special counsel Jack Smith’s office forced him to testify without the shield of attorney-client privilege in front of the grand jury and prosecutors accused Trump of using his attorney to advance a crime. …<<<

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/04/15/politics/evan-corcoran-donald-trump-mar-a-lago-case/index.html