Mantown

[Alex2507]

The upside: I don't have to be wondering about a fail point somewhere in the cross over. That center stage being shifted to the left is gone completely. I had my g/f yelling over the music at me. Life is good.

I guess I'll just have to listen to everything again to see what it sounds like wired up right. It took a surprisingly long time to identify that something was off. I level matched everything but just realized I have gain controls on the sub amps that need to be leveled to each other before they get leveled to the mains.

The YPAO auto set up set the speakers to large with a xo of 40 Hz to the subs with a bass out setting of Both and the subs are reverse phase. I guess I'll have to investigate those as well. You can never be too sure ...

The difference between YPAO's EQ and no EQ seems to be an added bass bump that effectively brings the top end down as Dennis mentioned doing in the hp filter with different sized resistors. No EQ sounds more forward for the vocals and brighter as a quick first impression. When YPAO's EQ pulls the vocalist back, it sort of creates a bigger sound stage. I'm gonna give this a go for a while. The subs are no longer even remotely localizable.

It's been an uphill battle with these things but I think I have turned a corner here *heavy sigh*

 

[Swerd]

The upside: I don't have to be wondering about a fail point somewhere in the cross over. That center stage being shifted to the left is gone completely. I had my g/f yelling over the music at me. Life is good.

I guess I'll just have to listen to everything again to see what it sounds like wired up right. It took a surprisingly long time to identify that something was off. I level matched everything but just realized I have gain controls on the sub amps that need to be leveled to each other before they get leveled to the mains.

You've had a useful learning experience. You now know how hard it was to hear that something was off. In the MBOW1 2-way, if the mid-woofer and tweeter aren't wired with opposing polarity, there will be a large sound suck-out centered around the 2.6 kHz crossover frequency. See this graph from Dennis's DIY web site.

It looks huge on the graph but it was hard to notice.

I always remember one guy at a DIY speaker builder's meeting at Dennis's house, years ago. He was proudly demoing his 2-way speakers made with very expensive Seas magnesium 6½" mid-woofer and Seas Millenium tweeter. He bragged about using premium priced made-in-Germany capacitors, expensive flat ribbon inductor coils, and his boutique speaker cables. He claimed that he could easily hear improvements in sound from all of them.

It turns out that he had mistakenly wired his mid-woofer and tweeter with the wrong polarity. He had only finished them late at night several days earlier, as you now know, wiring the drivers to the XO board is one of the last things you do in the final assembly. It's late, you're tired and want to finish up – it's easy to screw up that last step.

Dennis heard the crossover frequency suck-out immediately, but the builder didn't. Dennis, ever polite to other builders, offered to measure them, and showed him the results. It looked similar to the above graph.

I wanted to ask him how he could hear subtle differences (if any) due to boutique cables or high-priced capacitors, but not hear the huge suck-out due to drivers wired in opposing polarity. I never did ask him, but I've always remembered that story as an example of how easy it is to fool yourself.

 

[Alex2507]

The subs check out. I'll have to find something to check listener preference on YPAO's sub polarity position. The battery trick is the balls. My first time doing that.

So the one mid being out of whack would have gone back ... who even knows at this point? I was actually kind of proud about the hp xo install on felt in the bookshelves. Then I boned on wiring the mid to the binding post. You know what? I'm still kind of proud about mounting that hp xo on felt in the bookshelves. That's some next level badassery, right there!

The thing with center stage, is that on top of being mostly left of center, it would wander. Whenever it did lean a little to the right I lept at the hope that all was well with the 1000 and 1 connections. I was scared sh!t of some undetermined issue in the cross overs that might be hard to diagnose not to mention access. So ... close one.

Anyway, center stage is fixed, locked, not wandering ... etc. I've got the subs in tolerable positions, level matched for the main listening position. There's not much left to do but listen ... and wonder about the 40Hz xo point with reversed sub polarity along with equalization.

It looks huge on the graph but it was hard to notice.

When it's one driver out of six it gets even harder to hone in on the problem.

So far (while writing the post) I've found that reversing the polarity on the subs does add a little more authority and distinction to the bass. It's all at low levels so it's pretty nuanced. The YPAO isn't nuanced at all. Maybe I'll be able to figure out the EQ info and apply a toned down version of their adjustments.

It's nice having the hardware issues addressed.

 

[Ponzio]

... and now for something completely different.

 

[Alex2507]

I managed to do everything but level match so nothing I think could even begin to count but I'm thinkin' it anyway.

Since this is Mantown after all, here's what else goes on over the course of eons. I couldn't resist this nail gun back in 08/13/2018 for $55 @ 05:55 PM. The receipt was in the case. The nailer is ~$120 new so I couldn't resist.

http://imgur.com/Kdby6X9

A similar find on a quiete-ish, oil-less compressor made its way into the fold years ago for around $100. It's like $170 new but for use in condo-land, the lower SPL was the big draw. As a matter of fact, the girl was working on the phone when this little compressor kicked in: it wasn't overly disruptive.

http://imgur.com/Aevwksj

... all resulting in these little strips of Cherry being glued and nailed after getting a coat of satin poly. This has been hanging around in one form of not being finished or another for years. And now it's over. This pic is right before glue up. I was too lazy to be trying to photograph pin nails.

http://imgur.com/9hQ29Fv

Now there's a compressor and a nail gun hanging around.

YPAO isn't to my liking. I don't know why I thought it was at first.

I guess I'm going to listen to some records.

 

[Ponzio]

.YPAO isn't to my liking. I don't know why I thought it was at first.

Probably needs to be tweaked, manually. YPAO usually does a pretty decent room EQ but I've always had to smooth it out afterwards.

What model? The reason I ask is the newish models, RX-Axx40 and up, give you the ability to fine tune it, via the web GUI on your browser.

 

[Alex2507]

Probably needs to be tweaked, manually. YPAO usually does a pretty decent room EQ but I've always had to smooth it out afterwards.

What model? The reason I ask is the newish models, RX-Axx40 and up, give you the ability to fine tune it, via the web GUI on your browser.

The 2600! You had one for sale until you got sentimental IIRC.

I did drop my xo point to 60 Hz and I inverted my sub phase based getting 'closer' to the YPAO settings. I won't be happy until I run REW in here but don't anybody hold their breath for that. If I keep going back to Mem 3 where auto eq is stored, I'll better understand the other affected parameters and maybe learn to 'ease' my way toward those settings (after I understand them).

The best reason I have to avoid YPAO setting for a 40Hz xo point where 'Both' get the bass signal is my preference of being able to cut out the bottom end at night by turning off the subs. It's my act of contrition for the periodic, short lived outbursts that I subject the neighbors to from time to time.

 

[Ponzio]

That's right, I had a RX-V2600 at one time. I ended up keeping the RX-V2700 instead, for my garage, and sold the 2600.

You have a good memory. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.

Good luck with your experimentation.

 

[Alex2507]

Good luck with your experimentation.

Experimentation happens in college ... according to a friend.
At this stage it would have to be called a life choice.

So I bi-amped the 3-ways 'cause I could. The rec'r allows for it with the surround back channels and some 'Advanced' menu, Maxwell Smart stuff you do on the rec'r's front panel. Yes, I was that bored and the rack is that easy to slide around on the carpet.

My tweeter is on it's own amp in this arrangement because of the way this was wired from the start and the fact that I placed a huge cap from the bandpass board onto the low pass board to even out the board sizes. Anyway the more sensible arrangement for a nonsensical bi-amping scheme would be the mid and tweet on one amp and the 10" woofer on another amp.

Maybe having the tweeter on it's own isn't a bad thing in light of the can of worms opened by the tweeter that stopped working. I keep playing with the xo point, polarity and LF distribution. Of course I accidentally wiped out the YPAO settings. I had the distances and levels in safe keeping on another memory setting. Going off my memory I made a couple of 1 and 2 db adjustments to fill in a perceived dry zone down low. Turns out my dry zone isn't my dry zone, it's the source that's different. My Dire Straits BIA is the 20th SACD anniversary edition but I was using a streamed 1985 streamed CD for comparison. Finally I decided to quit f^%&ing around and plugged the SACD in to see who's who. That changed things regarding the bass integration and over all balance or presentation of at least a couple of songs. It seems like you could spend a life time tweaking this and listening for that. No wonder people who are into audio are prone to nutty notions about what they can hear.

 

[Alex2507]

My little wall mounted Infinity Primus 140 speakers just got taken down for an Aperion Intimus 5BD upgrade. I had mentioned somewhere that the 140s sounded like the sound was coming out of a can compared to the MBOW1 3-ways which were more comparable to the sound coming from an open field. The Aperions sound like bigger cans. They have more drivers pointed in all different directions but they are somewhat corner bound.

http://imgur.com/8cFvuq9

http://imgur.com/JedJzIh

The odd angles on the drivers actually lines me up pretty close to on axis.

Whatever ... the bar just got raised for computer speakers. A solution that didn't have a problem as it were. Listening to music from the computer chair just got a lot better. As with the last pair of these that I owned, I don't see myself taking these apart for a peak under the hood. They're that nice.

 

[Alex2507]

I'm not going to go buy this ... because ...

ATI AT1202 Two-Channel Stereo 180W Power Amplifier - electronics -...

Condition is Used. Original owner, don't need it since we moved. Works great, low hours. Cosmetic...

boston.craigslist.org

... I want to pay off my credit card debt first! I shouldn't be driving into beantown. I don't really want to explain another black box to SWMBO. But man, ATI ... *sigh*.

Probably due to it being an 'Advanced' function, Biamping doesn't turn on and off with the memory presets so the 3-way's tweeters were firing while in Memory 2 for the wall mounted computer jobs. Back to not biamping off the rec'r's surround back channels then. I put the effort into banana plugs a ways back so swapping wires was painless. I discovered the glitch playing with the speaker selector switch.

Having the two speaker pairs in the same room on one rec'r is kind of neat. The subs work with either pair and have speaker specific bass management settings stored into memory. I think I have this to where I'm not gonna be listening to it f^%&ed up for the next 4 months. The initial back and forth comparisons from different listening positions has me happy with both sets of speakers. Even the wall mounting hardware landed on studs. The wiring was already in-wall ...

... but no amp. Besides ... only 120 watts per channel? I'm not running a f^%&ing sorority over here.

 

[adk highlander]

I wonder how far he dropped the amp. I was all good with the 280 until I saw the corner damage.

 

[Alex2507]

I wonder how far he dropped the amp. I was all good with the 280 until I saw the corner damage.

Hey, good point! I wouldn't have thought of that. I just assumed it worked and would continue to do so. New ATI amps are thousands so a few hundred as an asking price mesmerized me. Thanks for snapping me out of it.

 

[Alex2507]

Cool points on the Aperions: -3db @ 100 Hz but still -6db @ 80 Hz.
Recommended Power: 50 - 300 watts.
Weight: 39 lbs.

I found my misplaced EQ curve misapplied to Mem 2. I sorted it out.
Getting more familiar with the basic functions of an outdated device with each passing year.

At the keyboard the Aperions sound best due to something resembling nearfield stereo positioning while the 3-ways are off to one side, at my back. They have a completely different main listening position. However outside the room, the 3-ways which are closer to the door, rock the hell out of the place with an oomph lacking in the Aperion's lower midrange. But that's not how we listen in condo-land. It is interesting seeing how the different speakers behave with power thrown at 'em even if it is for short bursts.

Oh, since ditching the unwanted EQ'ing on Mem 2, the most obvious differences lost their prominence but the speakers still maintain most of their character presumably because the EQ was focused on the bottom end. But I have the YPAO EQ curve for the MLP of Mem 1 to use as a guide for tweaking the 3-ways going forward. That's way forward.

4 months of not fiddling around with the gains starts today ... v.2.
I'm not bullshitting you this time.

 

[Alex2507]

Bored enough to make a door ...

 

[Alex2507]

Not bored enough to read the books behind it ...

 

[ryanosaur]

Not bored enough to read the books behind it ...

But... Trees of the World is a real page turner!

 

[everettT]

Not bored enough to read the books behind it ...

Is that twister 101?

 

[Alex2507]

Is that twister 101?

The advanced field guide.

 

[everettT]

The advanced field guide.

Man that's the one with the camera and microphone layout for stereophonic recording, jealous.