Loudspeaker Measurement Question?

[Swerd]

Any DIY'er has probably attended get-togethers where a particular speaker impressed people as non-irritating and easy to listen to, only to discover during a follow-up listening session that the tweeter had been wired backwards, causing a big dip at the crossover region.

Been there, done that . Fortunately, only once .

 

[speakerman39]

Here is an example of the distortion for the B&W CM1 that the NRC publishes. It shows two traces. The upper trace is the same speaker frequency response curve that you showed in your first post, but it's loudness is raised to about 90dB. The lower trace is Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N) measured over a range beginning as low as 50Hz and higher depending on the speaker being tested.

At any frequency where both traces are visible, you can see how much louder the response (upper trace) is compared to the THD+N (lower trace) by the vertical difference between the two traces. At 200-500 Hz where THD+N is low, the difference is about 40 dB (very good), and at 100 Hz the difference is about 22 dB (not bad). When THD+N is at least 25 dB quieter that the response, you essentially do not hear the distortion.

Sorry to hear about the surgery. I hope you get some relief afterwards.

Thanks Richard for the explanation. It gives me a little better understanding of reading graphs. But, I admit I still have a good ways to go. But, I am working on it as we speak. Thanks for your kind words as well.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I'm not Dennis, but I am familiar with what he thinks about any dips or raised responses across the mid range. He does not like them one bit. If a speaker he hears has the dreaded BBC dip, or a raised mid range as with inadequate baffle step compensation, it takes him only a few seconds before he recognizes it.

Depending on who's speaker it is, he might say something like "Oh, that speaker must be British – it sounds so very polite". That's if the owner is present and he doesn't want to offend him.

If the owner is absent, he might say something a bit more direct, such as, "That's quite enough of that. Turn it off please."

I don't believe I had ever heard a speaker with a truly flat response across the mid range until I first heard one of Dennis's DIY designs. At first listen, I thought it sounded bright, but oddly compelling. After listening for some time (at least ½ hour) I quickly got used to it, and my old speakers had suddenly become too warm sounding. I can absolutely hear this difference best when listening to voices. Some people adapt slower or faster than I did, and others never adapt, preferring other types of voicing.

Richard we are talking about the 1K Hz-4K Hz range right? That is where the mid-range albeit voices are the most critical. The only experience I have had with the BBC Dip is with the Wharfedale Dentons. I must admit that I really liked the Dentons as vocals really sounded very good to me. Maybe it was not due to the BBC Dip, but whatever it was sure worked for me.

I did place the Dentons as FR and FL speakers to see how they would do when watching a BR movie. Needless to say something was way off. I did NOT even make it through one movie. But, with music and in the near-field the Dentons were splendid to say the least. With movies they left plenty to be desired which left me rather confused in that regard.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

I do think our hearing changes as we age. Just 15-years ago I could not stand to listen to any Klipsch speaker at all. However, my local BB always has the Reference Series on display. After getting back into the hobby nearly 3-years ago, I actually kind of liked what I heard. Then, one day they had a set of the PR bookshelfs and I got to demo them. Holy smokes I was blown away. That is, the PR Series bookshelfs were NOT harsh at all and very detailed.

Cheers,

Phil

Your hearing may play some part of this, but I think the bigger part is that Klipsch has redesigned their speakers many times over the last 15 years.
I wish I again could listen to the Klipsch of 40 years ago that I so despised for their harshness (actually, at that time, I despised all speakers I had heard with horns for that reason) to see how they sound now that my ears are 40 years older, but I'm not sure the problem was specifically in the 14kHz plus region that I can no longer hear!
However I can definitely hear an improvement between the horn of my RF-82ii (which I find not to be harsh, but still a little too forward if I point the horn right at me). The RP series, I can point directly at me without any complaint! So I can vouch for improvement between the most recent and the current generation. I suspect that over the decades they have incrementally improved their horns and just as JBL has developed theirs, I believe Klipsch has attained similar improvements via a parallel horn technology.
This makes for an interesting bias situation as I know that for many many years I have been conditioned to cringe from horns pointed at me... especially, if loud. The problem is I still get "bit" at concerts where I don't even get the chance to size up the system before I reach to plug my ears then see the horn pointed at me.
So, I would venture that initially when i heard the rf-62ii's at @ATLAudio 's house, I was cringing (I went there to check out his PSA subs) and I bet when you are cringing, you are putting some mechanical pressure/tension on your ear drum which would compromise your ability to hear clearly. In my case, ATLAudio had spent plenty of time tuning his system and had the speakers toed so the horn effect was not offensive; and, as I was listening to the subs, my ears were not getting assaulted by the horns, and I relaxed and started to appreciate the qualities of the Klipsch (for music, but especially for HT)!
I pretty much considered my RF-82ii's as excellent HT speakers, but still wanted something else for critically listening to music in the same room. With the RP series, I am completely comfortable with them as music and HT speakers all-in-one. They might not be my best sounding music speaker, but if I am limited to a single speaker to use for both HT and music, I think the Klipsch RP series is a very good solution.

 

[speakerman39]

Your hearing may play some part of this, but I think the bigger part is that Klipsch has redesigned their speakers many times over the last 15 years.
I wish I could listen to the Klipsch I so despised for their harshness (actually I despised all speakers I had heard with horns for that reason) to seee if I can tolerate them now that my ears are 40 years older, but I'm not sure the problem was specifically in the 14kHz plus region that I can no longer hear!
However I can definitely hear an improvement between the horn of my RF-82ii (which I find not to be harsh, but still a little too forward if I point the horn right at me). The RP series, I can point directly at me without any complaint! So I can vouch for improvement between the most recent and the current generation. I suspect that over the decades they have incrementally improved their horns and just as JBL has developed theirs, I believe Klipsch has attained similar improvements via a parallel horn technology.
This makes for an interesting bias situation as I know that for many many years I have been conditioned to cringe from horns pointed at me especially loud. The problem is I still get "bit" at concerts where I don't even get the chance to size up the system before I reach to plug my ears then see the horn pointed at me.
So, I would venture that initially when i heard the rf-62ii's at @ATLAudio 's house, I was cringing (I went there to check out his PSA subs) and I bet when you are cringing, you are putting some mechanical pressure/tension on your ear drum which would compromise your ability to hear clearly. In my case, ATLAudio had spent plenty of time tuning his system and had the speakers toed so the horn effect was not offensive; and, as I was listening to the subs, my ears were not getting assaulted by the horns, and I relaxed and started to appreciate the qualities of the Klipsch (for music, but especially for HT)!
I pretty much considered my RF-82ii's as excellent HT speakers, but still wanted something else for critically listening to music in the same room. With the RP series, I am completely comfortable with them as music and HT speakers all-in-one. They might not be my best sounding music speaker, but if I am limited to a single speaker to use for both HT and music, I think the Klipsch RP series is a very good solution.

I got out of this hobby in the upper mid 2000's and stayed out for a good 6-years or so. A year or so before getting back in I started going to visit my local BB a bit more. They had your typical Polk, Sony, and Klipsch speakers on display. It turns out that BB had the Klipsch Reference Series out for demo. Honestly, I was a bit surprised with how well they sounded. Especially, since I had always had a problem with them in the past.

The biggest surprise to my ears was how well the Sony Cores sounded. Much better than the AJ Pioneers that were also on display. But, the Klipsch held their own very well. At the end of the day, however, I still preferred the Sony Cores. But, at the very least my mind was opened up with respect to Klipsch.

Once getting back into the hobby in Late 2015, the Klipsch speakers on demo sounded even better to me. Got the chance later on to demo a set of the RP bookshelfs and was absolutely amazed. IIRC, it was the RP160's, but not 100% certain on that. It could have very well been the RP150's. Either way, I was no longer anti-Klipsch. They were a bit expensive though from what I remember.

I agree in that our hearing becomes less sensitive to higher frequencies over time. At least, that has been my own experience. Like you, I would be very content with a Klipsch RP Series bookshelfs for both HT and music. Right now I plan to save my money up so I can opt for the BMR's. Unfortunately, it will be a while due to my current circumstances.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Not finding any real measurements of the Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary speakers at all. Very curious to see how their measurements would look like compared to the B&W CM1 S1's. More specifically, I would like to see if the Dentons have the "BBC Dip". If not, then what is it then that made them superb w/vocals? Trying to put my finger on it, b/c that is what I really like given my preference is on music anyways. Any ideas on how to find some measurements of the Dentons?


Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Not finding any real measurements of the Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary speakers at all. Very curious to see how their measurements would look like compared to the B&W CM1 S1's. More specifically, I would like to see if the Dentons have the "BBC Dip". If not, then what is it then that made them superb w/vocals? Trying to put my finger on it, b/c that is what I really like given my preference is on music anyways. Any ideas on how to find some measurements of the Dentons?


Cheers,

Phil

If they haven't been measured by a third party, then there won't be any measurements of them to refer to. There are only a handful of publications that actually do measurements. I doubt there are going to be any measurements that you can see of the Dentons. I do like what I heard from the Diamond 11 series, and I might be interested in doing a review of them sometime in the future, although nothing is planned at the moment.

 

[Winkleswizard]

Check this out: https://www.google.com/search?q=wharfedale+denton+specs&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS752US752&hl=en-US&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjg_PL1sIjbAhUo4oMKHSZSDNQ4ChD8BQgQKAI&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=j_WwyjyAXixckM:

Not seeing the BBC dip, but both have comparable bass emphasis...

Ww

 

[KEW]

For the record, on the topic of "harsh" speakers and age, according to info provided by Independent Recording Net, a recording engineer would cut frequencies between 2kHz and 6kHz to reduce "harshness".
So, if our sensitivities to harshness decreases as we age, it is not due to the loss of high frequency hearing as I had been thinking!
2-6kHz is considered "high midrange"!

 

[speakerman39]

Here are the measurements of the Wharfedale Diamond 220's via the NRC:

I really liked the 220's b/c everything sounded good on them. Even with less than ideal recordings. The top end was buttery smooth and the low end was quite extended when compared to the Dentons. Of course, the B&W CM1 S1's easily won out once again in that regard. BTW, I am most certain that I can NOT hear much, if any, above 16K Hz. From 10K to 16K it looks to be a dip of about 4dB. Is that why the top end was buttery smooth? The low end looks to be -3dB @80Hz, -6dB@65 Hz, and -12dB@40 Hz. Am I right? My eyes are kind of playing tricks on me....LOL!!!!! Room gain would allow for more extension?

https://www.soundstage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1490:nrc-measurements-wharfedale-diamond-220-loudspeakers&catid=77&Itemid=153



Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

So when is your surgery?
I'll be sending positive energy your way (aka praying for you)!
Are you in the anxiety (before) or recuperation phase?
I was listening to a story where the hospital allowed patients to select the music to be played during their procedure. Interesting idea! I don't think you could expect your provider to change their procedures for you, but you might give some thought to what you would choose given a choice and pre-operation, run it through your mind as a form of meditation/distraction/relaxation.

 

[Winkleswizard]

Sorry, my earlier post was a Denton 2...

Then my internet went down. Will give another shot when I don’t have to use my phone.

Ww

 

[speakerman39]

If they haven't been measured by a third party, then there won't be any measurements of them to refer to. There are only a handful of publications that actually do measurements. I doubt there are going to be any measurements that you can see of the Dentons. I do like what I heard from the Diamond 11 series, and I might be interested in doing a review of them sometime in the future, although nothing is planned at the moment.

Shady, hope that you do a review of the 11.1's as I would be interested to see what you find. Not to mention measurements. One thing I do notice is that the Diamond 11 Series is using foam surrounds as opposed to rubber on the 200 Series. Rubber tends to last longer. Not sure if it holds any advantages in terms of SQ though.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

So when is your surgery?
I'll be sending positive energy your way (aka praying for you)!
Are you in the anxiety (before) or recuperation phase?
I was listening to a story where the hospital allowed patients to select the music to be played during their procedure. Interesting idea! I don't think you could expect your provider to change their procedures for you, but you might give some thought to what you would choose given a choice and pre-operation, run it through your mind as a form of meditation/distraction/relaxation.

Surgery is on the 28th of next month, but it was supposed to be a few weeks earlier. However, I am moving to a bigger and better place by the end of the month. That is why my surgery was pushed back a few weeks. I will be totally knocked out as the neurosurgeon is taking out the discs and putting bone in its place, then connecting the vertebraes with titanium plates with screws. The surgeon also said he has to trim out some bone to make more room for my spinal cord. I have a very bad pinched nerves on the left side of my neck creating all kind of issues including severe pain.

What honestly scares me is that the surgeon is going in from the front middle of my throat to do his magic. I will be placed in a neck collar for 2-3 weeks. But yes, my anxiety is rather high as we speak. Thanks for the prayers and prayer is powerful and effective according to scripture. My Philippine Sister's Mother is going to look after me for a few days after my surgery. That is, if there are no serious complications.

My JBL 305's are already at her house so I can listen to some music here and there. I don't take to pain very well. But, I also refuse to take any of the Opioids. Things are going to get quite bumpy and/or painful for me. But, I plan to take it one day at a time for I know no other way. The rest is in Jesus's hands. But, HE has the whole world in HIS hands just like the song says. I think that I am in very good hands.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Sorry, my earlier post was a Denton 2...

Then my internet went down. Will give another shot when I don’t have to use my phone.

Ww

Yeah, was just noticing that.....LOL!!! Oh well, at least you tried. Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Winkleswizard]

Only thing I found so far was from a UK hifi pub.

Kind of odd looking, but still no BBC dip...



Link to the whole review: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/loudspeakers/65-reviews/519--wharfedale-denton-80th-anniversay-edition.html?start=3

Ww

 

[speakerman39]

Only thing I found so far was from a UK hifi pub.

Kind of odd looking, but still no BBC dip...

View attachment 24225

Link to the whole review: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/loudspeakers/65-reviews/519--wharfedale-denton-80th-anniversay-edition.html?start=3

Ww

Yeah, I did find this too. But, I could not ascertain much from it. As such, I did not even bother....LOL!! Do appreciate you looking for me though. But, I think Shady is right in that there is not much out there as far as measurements go. Find that a bit odd though.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Shady, hope that you do a review of the 11.1's as I would be interested to see what you find. Not to mention measurements. One thing I do notice is that the Diamond 11 Series is using foam surrounds as opposed to rubber on the 200 Series. Rubber tends to last longer. Not sure if it holds any advantages in terms of SQ though.


Cheers,

Phil

Foam and rubber can both work well as surrounds, although they have different compliances. Surrounds that use foam nowadays use butyl rubber foam, and this doesn't have the longevity problems of the type of foam that was common years ago that didn't last. Butyl rubber foam supposedly has comparable longevity to regular rubber.

 

[KEW]

Surgery is on the 28th of next month, but it was supposed to be a few weeks earlier. However, I am moving to a bigger and better place by the end of the month. That is why my surgery was pushed back a few weeks. I will be totally knocked out as the neurosurgeon is taking out the discs and putting bone in its place, then connecting the vertebraes with titanium plates with screws. The surgeon also said he has to trim out some bone to make more room for my spinal cord. I have a very bad pinched nerves on the left side of my neck creating all kind of issues including severe pain.

What honestly scares me is that the surgeon is going in from the front middle of my throat to do his magic. I will be placed in a neck collar for 2-3 weeks. But yes, my anxiety is rather high as we speak. Thanks for the prayers and prayer is powerful and effective according to scripture. My Philippine Sister's Mother is going to look after me for a few days after my surgery. That is, if there are no serious complications.

My JBL 305's are already at her house so I can listen to some music here and there. I don't take to pain very well. But, I also refuse to take any of the Opioids. Things are going to get quite bumpy and/or painful for me. But, I plan to take it one day at a time for I know no other way. The rest is in Jesus's hands. But, HE has the whole world in HIS hands just like the song says. I think that I am in very good hands.


Cheers,

Phil

Is titanium what they use by default for your procedure?
I ask because a friend recently had to get pins in her knee after a motorcycle accident and she is allergic to nickel so got to get titanium instead.
So, are you going to change your name to "bionicspeakerman39"?

Just some fun nostalgia:

It sounds like you have a pretty good support group and the pinched nerves you are currently experiencing can't be fun!
How are your 305's setup? What source? Playlists?

 

[speakerman39]

Foam and rubber can both work well as surrounds, although they have different compliances. Surrounds that use foam nowadays use butyl rubber foam, and this doesn't have the longevity problems of the type of foam that was common years ago that didn't last. Butyl rubber foam supposedly has comparable longevity to regular rubber.

I see. That is interesting. Never heard of butyl rubber foam. Just hope that you can get around to reviewing the 11.1's. Of course, there is also the new Impression Series from RBH that is probably high on your list as well. Face it Shady, you got a lot of work to do. Wished we could help you as I am sure many here would be happy to do so.


Cheers,

Phil