Looking to upgrade my turntable

[highfigh]

You really have made a ten course meal of this! Hopefully you will be happy with the Fluance. However, good turntables have to be built with precision engineering and that is never cheap. Just talk to a skilled machinist.

It's a lot less expensive to buy precision parts than to make them. The setup time alone adds a significant cost to any operation and sometimes, special tooling is needed. I seriously doubt anyone making turntables now makes all of the parts needed. Any casting, whether plastic or metal, needs a large sales projection numbers in order to be viable.

It would seem practical for tonearm pivot points to contain industrial gemstones- even relatively inexpensive watches used those.

 

[Mike Up]

It's a lot less expensive to buy precision parts than to make them. The setup time alone adds a significant cost to any operation and sometimes, special tooling is needed. I seriously doubt anyone making turntables now makes all of the parts needed. Any casting, whether plastic or metal, needs a large sales projection numbers in order to be viable.

It would seem practical for tonearm pivot points to contain industrial gemstones- even relatively inexpensive watches used those.

Yes, I was just shocked by the level of cheapness the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT and Denon DP-300F are made. And it clearly shows by the motor noise defect on the Audio Technica and the speed problem defect on the DP-300F.

Looks like Teac, Music Hall, Dual, Audio Technica, Sony, Denon, and others are made by Hanpin for their cheaper offering and use Ya Horng for their more expensive offerings. Fluance, NAD, Yamaha and JBL turntables are made by Ya Horng. Leetac makes Victrola turntables.

Then you have Pro-Ject and U-turn that make their own turntables but their lower models are NOT upgradeable to different cartridges due to their fixed anti-skate. Only their more expensive offerings have an adjustable anti-skate. Technics makes their own turntables as well.

Looks like Fluance has the the least expensive and more feature rich turntables made by Ya Horng.

Only makes sense in this digital age where vinyl died a long time ago and was only recently brought back to life for the new Vinyl FAD. It's a good thing as it keep hardware going for us to listen to our vintage collections, but now it's either cheaply made or super expensive turntables with few offerings sitting in the middle.

Looks Like Music Hall just discontinued an inexpensive model the US-1 which has adjustable tracking force and anti-skate for cartridge upgrades and only is $250 made, by Hanpin. Funny it just started showing up for sale this week on some websites, looks very similar to my old Sony PS-LX350H except it's much lighter. Perhaps Sony used a steel plate attached to the bottom plastic like the Denon DP-300F does.

 

[TLS Guy]

Yes, I was just shocked by the level of cheapness the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT and Denon DP-300F are made. And it clearly shows by the motor noise defect on the Audio Technica and the speed problem defect on the DP-300F.

Looks like Teac, Music Hall, Dual, Audio Technica, Sony, Denon, and others are made by Hanpin for their cheaper offering and use Ya Horng for their more expensive offerings. Fluance, NAD, Yamaha and JBL turntables are made by Ya Horng. Leetac makes Victrola turntables.

Then you have Pro-Ject and U-turn that make their own turntables but their lower models are NOT upgradeable to different cartridges due to their fixed anti-skate. Only their more expensive offerings have an adjustable anti-skate. Technics makes their own turntables as well.

Looks like Fluance has the the least expensive and more feature rich turntables made by Ya Horng.

Only makes sense in this digital age where vinyl died a long time ago and was only recently brought back to life for the new Vinyl FAD. It's a good thing as it keep hardware going for us to listen to our vintage collections, but now it's either cheaply made or super expensive turntables with few offerings sitting in the middle.

Looks Like Music Hall just discontinued an inexpensive model the US-1 which has adjustable tracking force and anti-skate for cartridge upgrades and only is $250 made, by Hanpin. Funny it just started showing up for sale this week on some websites, looks very similar to my old Sony PS-LX350H except it's much lighter. Perhaps Sony used a steel plate attached to the bottom plastic like the Denon DP-300F does.

Honestly, your best bet for a good turntable at a good price is to buy a good vintage one. However the finest of the vintage turntables fetch a small fortune.

New turntables are not really a very good deal, they are pretty much junk or way overpriced.

 

[Mike Up]

Honestly, your best bet for a good turntable at a good price is to buy a good vintage one. However the finest of the vintage turntables fetch a small fortune.

New turntables are not really a very good deal, they are pretty much junk or way overpriced.

Yes, I agree. I remember when I was a kid we had a console stereo with built in turntable and AM/FM radio, and speakers. The turntable had a floating suspension and was pretty cool. Unfortunately it has 1 driver, full range speakers that didn't sound very good.

Yes, after finding these cheaply made turntables, I started researching and that is when I found that most under $1000 turntables are made by Ya Horng, and the cheaper under $550 are made mostly by Hanpin but a few made by Ya Horng.

The other less than $1000 makers are U-Turn, Pro-Ject, and Technics.

From the looks of it, the Ya Horng turntables look to be quality while the Hanpin are questionable. Just my take on it. I do keep reading of problems with the U-Turn tables while little issues with Pro-Ject. But their more affordable turntables aren't cartridge upgradeable with a fixed anti-skate. The Technics seem to be the golden standard.

If it weren't for the Fluance turntables, I think I would had just gave up and kept using the AT-LP60-USB turntable or put the albums into storage. The nicer Ya Horng turntables by various brands look nice, but they are expensive, at least to me. I do think I would try putting a new Stylus and belt onto the AT-LP60-USB just to see if it helps.

If the Fluance turntable works out for me, I may give the LP60-USB to my step son if he even would have any interest in it, as he's a digital guy.

The Sony PS-LX350H I had, except for design flawed drifting speed, was built better than the AT-LP3XBT or the Denon DP-300F yet back in the day seemed to be around $150 to $200. Looks to have the same Audio Technica made Cartridge with a 2.5mv output with 2.0 grams of tracking force. Even with the same flip down stylus protector! Most likely a modified AT91R.

 

[Mikado463]

Honestly, your best bet for a good turntable at a good price is to buy a good vintage one. However the finest of the vintage turntables fetch a small fortune.

New turntables are not really a very good deal, they are pretty much junk or way overpriced.

So Mark, where does this one fall in, 'vintage junk' ?

2025 Golden Ear: Garrard 301 Transcription Turntable by Audio Grail

£3250 (approx. $4300 excluding any tariffs) In 1954 the Garrard Engineering and Manufacturing Company of England introduced the 301 transcription

www.theabsolutesound.com

 

[TLS Guy]

So Mark, where does this one fall in, 'vintage junk' ?

2025 Golden Ear: Garrard 301 Transcription Turntable by Audio Grail

£3250 (approx. $4300 excluding any tariffs) In 1954 the Garrard Engineering and Manufacturing Company of England introduced the 301 transcription

www.theabsolutesound.com

SME are making the Garrard 301 again. That one looks like an SME new unit with an SME series II arm which they are also making again.

So that would be superb turntable. I still use my two original 301s. Despite their age they are superb and made with great craftsmanship.

That is a 301 with Decca pro arm, and Decca ffss H4E. There is also a Decca MK2 78 head. There is also a very rare Auriol lift which I restored. The preamp is an original Quad 22 there were optimized to mate with the Decca variable reluctance series of cartridges as they were by far the commonest set up at the higher end of the market in the UK back then.

I hate to think what that rig is worth, but it would be in the thousands. That is a very rare complete collection of vintage gear.

 

[Mike Up]

Got the Fluance RT82 today and got it all set up. This is a beast. It is a solid MDF wood Plinth wrapped in gloss walnut Vinyl. Looks really really nice and weighs in at 15 lbs. It has 3 adjustable noise isolation feet with a bubble level. Even came with white gloves.

It has the Ortofon OM 10 cartridge with removable headshell and adjustable Tracking Force and Anti-Skate.

It's not automatic but does have an auto stop at the end of the record. It does not raise the arm, just stops with the arm on the record.

Sounds amazing besting the Denon by a good margin in detail and resolution and has more top end but not bright. The bass is noticeably more controlled as well. From what I remember on the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT's AT-VM95c cartridge is that it sounded a lot alike the Denon's AT91R/DL-85 Cartridge but with more top end as the bass sounded the same.

Now the AT-VM95c was a conical stylus where the Ortofon OM 10 is an Elliptical Stylus. The OM 10 sound better than both noticeably.

I used the same 3 records I used on the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT and the Denon DP-300F. That being Billy Squiers Enough is Enough, Heart's Passion Works and my old and worn ZZ Top Tejas.

Also, the motor is dead quiet, even quieter than the Denon DP-300F!

This Ortofon OM 10 cartridge produces more Voltage than the Denon's cartridge and being so, was 3db louder which is pretty significant with how low volume these turntables are.

I only had 2 concerns with this turntable, the biggest was I had some skipping on Enough is Enough and Tejas.

I rebalanced the tonearm and did the tracking force 3 times and also rotated the anti-skate several times from min to max to get any kinks out of it.

After doing all that, I no longer have any skipping. Now Tejas does have a mild warp in it which it skipped badly at first and wouldn't even play. Now it plays like it's a new record and sounds like it.

The other concern was that my tracking Force counter weight was really far up the tone arm when calibrated and could only get a max of 2.5 grams tracking force. I only needed 1.5 grams but that was a concern. Not anymore as I found 2 other people on the internet with the same issue and this Ortofon OM 10 is only 5 grams heavy, which is the lightest cartridge that this tonearm assembly is compatible with, up to 7.5 grams of the heavier 2M Red and Blue cartridges. So I guess it's normal.

Being I really like this Cartridge, I doubt I'd change it but if I did, I would just have to stay within that 5g to 7.5g cartridge weight and 20 degree Vertical Tracking Angle.

Amazing how quality built this turntable is compared to the Junk AT-LP3BT and DP-300F I tried. This turntable sounds really good. Another thing, the pops and crackles aren't really any worse with this OM 10's Elliptical Stylus than on the conical stylus cartridges of the other turntables. That's a big plus.

Now this table has features and build quality compared to other makers $650 - $750 and up turntables. Shocking at the low $333 price I paid. The Denon DP-300F was $350 and the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT was $400! Those were just plastic junk.

 

[dolynick]

I'm glad to hear you're liking the Fluance. I'm not surprised that you find the plinth re-assuring. It was one of the reasons I opted for it over some of the others as well when I was shopping for my father.

I had a little trouble getting his set up and the tonearm adjusted on his as well. The instructions are such that it wasn't quite obvious exactly what you were meant to do. It makes sense once you do it right but I got it all wrong the first try. I kind of chalked that up to it being first time I'd had to balance a tonearm in general though. Once I did it correctly though, all seems well.

 

[Mike Up]

I'm glad to hear you're liking the Fluance. I'm not surprised that you find the plinthy re-assuring. It was one of the reasons I opted for it over some of the others as well when I was shopping for my father.

I had a little trouble getting his set up and the tonearm adjusted on his as well. The instructions are such that it wasn't quite obvious exactly what you were meant to do. It makes sense once you do it right but I got it all wrong the first try. I kind of chalked that up to it being first time I'd had to balance a tonearm in general though. Once I did it correctly though, all seems well.

All is good now. I think my tonearm and balancing was ok as I was within .1 grams all 3 times I did it. The Anti-skate is aggressive as I forgot to put it back to zero when I was balancing again and the arm pulled hard back to it resting area. That may have been why it was skipping as it was skipping back, not forward. Twisted the anti-skate knob back and forth a few times and all has been good ever since.

I have done this routine numerous times with the cheap plastic audio technica and Denon turntables. Those were like toys with all the plastic and poor quality parts.

I really like the Ortofon OM 10, it seems more neutral than the AT cartridges plus is more detailed with more refinement in the bass.

 

[TLS Guy]

All is good now. I think my tonearm and balancing was ok as I was within .1 grams all 3 times I did it. The Anti-skate is aggressive as I forgot to put it back to zero when I was balancing again and the arm pulled hard back to it resting area. That may have been why it was skipping as it was skipping back, not forward. Twisted the anti-skate knob back and forth a few times and all has been good ever since.

I have done this routine numerous times with the cheap plastic audio technica and Denon turntables. Those were like toys with all the plastic and poor quality parts.

I really like the Ortofon OM 10, it seems more neutral than the AT cartridges plus is more detailed with more refinement in the bass.

I think you have a pretty good rig now. Unfortunately the OM 10 is now discontinued, so if you really like the cartridge, you might want to pick up a spare stylus.

Like all those cheaper cartridges the upper end resonance is not well controlled so they have a 3 db rise towards the top end of the range. Really FR flat cartridges tend to be pricey, but the best value I know is the Ortofon Blue. So as funds permit, an Ortofon Blue would be a worthwhile upgrade.

 

[Mike Up]

I think you have a pretty good rig now. Unfortunately the OM 10 is now discontinued, so if you really like the cartridge, you might want to pick up a spare stylus.

Like all those cheaper cartridges the upper end resonance is not well controlled so they have a 3 db rise towards the top end of the range. Really FR flat cartridges tend to be pricey, but the best value I know is the Ortofon Blue. So as funds permit, an Ortofon Blue would be a worthwhile upgrade.

Thanks, I went with the OM 10 over the 2M Red because all the research I read stated the OM 10 was more neutral and better sounding than the brighter 2M Red. The 2M Blue is said to tame the brightness of the 2M Red.

I also read that the OM 20 sounds just as good as the 2M Blue if not more neutral as well. Seems the Ortofon wanted to switch directions and make brighter sounding cartridges. The Super OM 10/20/30/40 was said to add brightness to the standard OM cartridges. Then the 2M series which is suppose to the direct replacement of the OM series carried on the characteristics of the Super OM by also being brighter than the OM series.

Not sure why Ortofon shifted to brighter sounding cartridges but I wanted a more neutral sounding cartridge and why I chose the Fluance RT82 over the RT83.

Only differences was the RT82 had the OM 10 and RT83 had the 2M Red. For that matter, same with the RT84 which had the 2M Blue. The RT85 carries on with the 2M Blue but upgrades the aluminum platter and rubber mat for an Acrylic Platter.

My thoughts were if I ever wanted to upgrade, I would upgrade my OM 10 to a OM 20 Stylus as the core cartridge is the same among the OM 10, 20, 30, 40. The OM 20 Stylus is actually more than the 2M Blue stylus by $50, but the 2M Blue Cartridge and the OM 20 Stylus are the same price being a wash if I switched to the 2M blue. Down the road would be cheaper for Stylus with the 2M Blue though.

 

[Mike Up]

Here's the turntable, I think the Walnut looks awesome.

 

[Mike Up]

I just found out I have some of the early pressings of Jimi Hendrex Experience Smash hits. Cleaned it and has minimal pops and crackles but it is very old at maybe 50 years old (last longer than all my cassettes!) with light scratches.

Well the stereo mix and sound quality was terrible. The stereo mix goes from Left to right with hard pans, sibilance and distortion but only on this record maybe. I have another early Hendrix album I haven't listened to.

Did a search and this was a common characteristic of the early pressing of Smash hit during the infancy of Stereo. Later pressings corrected this as well as later masters.

I did a search on google with the plant stamp and it is an original pressing from 1969! 56 years old, how cool!

So I think it's pretty cool to have one of the original pressings even if it does sound terrible. Had to listen to other albums after to make sure it wasn't the turntable.

I didn't have to do a wet cleaning on it as the dry cleaning using the velvet brush and static brush did really good. No sticky residue on this one.

I never really listened to these old records on the Audio Technica AT-LP60-USB as I just listened to the newer albums. I don't remember much how these old records sounded on the Sony PS-LX350H as that was over 15 years ago.

I have a lot of old pressings of 3 dog night, Kinks (mono I think), and others. Unfortunately I remember that my Beatles White album was unlistenable it was so bad, but kept it as it's likely an original pressing. I have a lot of Deep Purple, The Who, and others that I'm looking forward to revisiting.

Also been comparing turntables that are likely built by the same company the Fluance are, with similar plinths, motors and such. Looks like the new JBL turntable is but is like a RT80 with the reference motor and bluetooth, but a lower end cartridge.

Also looks like some others around the $800 and $900 range have the plinth designs and motors. Pretty obvious when you look as similar design and motor placements are used.

Makes me wonder why Fluance isn't more popular when they are competing against other brands that are 2-1/2X their price (maybe Tariffs).

 

[m. zillch]

I have a lot of old pressings of 3 dog night, Kinks

Pinning down what is causing distortion in audio chains became especially difficult thanks to the Kinks. HAHA

---

I once was pulling my hair out trying to figure what was causing distortion on a particular jazz track and after endlessly searching I finally came to the conclusion it was John Coltrane's "spit" in his sax gurgling around due to the airflow. [It is euphemistically called "spit" but it is actually the condensation of the very humid content of air breathed out. This same humidity is what fogs mirrors and eyeglasses when we breathe on them. A fairly "clean" form of water, I might add, so great when you need a small amount for eyeglass cleaning and don't want to leave any residue of other compounds, assuming you don't accidentally get any saliva mixed in with it by mistake.]