Looking for feedback/advice on a preamp/processor/receiver choice.

[lovinthehd]

Since I plan to cancel my order, I think I'll go ahead and resume building home made RCA interconnects. I'm using quality microphone cable and Amphenol connectors!

Is that your solution to the ground loop problems?

 

[PENG]

Hi PENG. I'm using a Yamaha Aventage RX-A810 as my AVR. The 1st message in the thread lists everything if you want to know the rest. Oh, with the exception that I forgot to list my Furman power conditioner.

Sorry I did read your first post but I saw that you mentioned a 1080P class AVR right in the beginning and missed the A810 part you did mention near the end.

Unbalanced connections may be more prone to ground loop, but unless it is caused by a defective device, you should be able to identify the root cause and fixed it. If I understand correctly you have in fact fixed your ground loop issue, though there may be a better way yet, than

You mentioned:

"and my SW amp does not support sensativity for 0.775V (line level RCA). It does support levels typically found on XLR balanced signals (2.4V etc.) though."

I read the manual of the CE1000 and saw no problem with the Denon AVRs with pre out capability up to about 4 V and still maintain THD+N or better than -90 dB. So unless there is something special about the CE1000A, if it is similar to the CE1000, I really don't know what you meant by it does not support 0.775V line level RCA, bridge mode or not. Would appreciate it if you can explain what the issue is, or post a link to Crown's explanations.

Again, not trying to discourage you from getting an AVP, its you money, but I am sure you want to get one that performs as good as an AVR if not better (it should be better..). I only mention AVRs as an interim low cost solution while waiting, and you also question it in your first post. For example, the AV7706's list price is $1,000 more than the AVR-X4700H, and you get more than 20 dB higher in THD+N so pay more and get less theoretical sound quality! The AVR-X4700H also has very good internal amps that can power your surround speakers while your Monolith amp powers the main 7 channels.

Then in one to two years you should be able to sell the AVR easily when you may be ready to choose between a potentially available CX-A5300, or AV7707 (may be 7708), assuming they would likely be much more bug free by then and upgraded to at least match Denon AVRs and the Marantz SR8015's performance. That's what I am doing myself, currently using an AVR-X4400H while waiting for the availability of an AVP that I can justify switching back to.

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

If they have not shipped it yet then they should let you cancel it. To be sure, I think you are right to contact the CC company first thing tomorrow morning.

I hope you won't let them talk you into getting something else such as the AV8805. Again, the recent AVPs are so feature rich, lots of thing can go wrong and in some cases you may never know its there for a long time or until you use the specific feature and under some specific conditions. So in my opinion, the more feature rich the product is, the more reason to buy brand new from an authorized dealer with full factory warranty and a good return/refund policy.

What are you using now anyway? And have you visit the ASR site to see the bench test performance? Below is the latest chart ranking by SINAD (THD+N):

Marantz AV7705 Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Edit: the first review I linked was incorrect, the correct is:

View attachment 51484

Note that the two units of the AV7705 have been bench tested, you can see that it ranks pretty low, the first one scored higher (92 dB SINAD) but that's measured at 1/2 the normal output voltage just to see if it did better at lower output, and it did. The normal standard is for 2 V RCA and 4 V XLR.

Thanks for the info. Interesting, NAD came out on top and the bottom. I used to use some NAD stuff back in my pre-multi-channel days. I had a C1700? preamp tuner, and a Power Envelope 2400 power amp. They were circa late 80s and sounded great with my La Scalas. The tuner in that NAD gear was 1st class; best tuner I have ever personally come across. I think the 2400 was at the start of the dynamic headroom marketing.

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

Is that your solution to the ground loop problems?

No. I am currently using some uh err "commodity" RCA interconnects that I scrounged out of my parts drawers LOL, while I waited to receive parts I ordered to make proper ones. I'll link here to the parts I'm building from:

• Connector
• Cable

My ground loop issues are that any amp I hook to my AVR via RCA gets me that lovely 60Hz "warm" tone. Well, screw being warm! I want "clean", "pure", "uncolored", "honest"... you get the point LOL. Anyway I don't know how it measures for amplitude, but it's quite noticeable. Keep in mind my mains are 105db@1M sensitive though. Here are some notable facts surrounding this issue:

• Loop hum is present between the RX-A810 and CE-1000.
• Loop hum is present between the RX-A810 and Monolith 7X.
• The RX-A810 & CE-1000 are plugged into the same bank on the Furman.
• The Monolith 7X is plugged into it's own receptacle on the same electric circuit that the Furman is (the other member of the same dual gang in fact).
• I temporarily plugged the Monolith 7X into the Furman also, so that EVERYTHING was on the same bank of the Furman (apart from some DC wall-warts which are on the other bank). The loop hum persisted anyway so back it went to its own receptacle.
• The circuit all this equipment is on is a 20A which supplies only the home theater room, though it is not dedicated to just the rack gear. To rule out any interference from installed dim-able lighting, all steps were tested with all lights off too, with no change in result. **** the electricians were supposed to put in a 20A circuit. Looking at the service panel, I see it has a 15A breaker. I sure hope the actual wiring (now in the walls) is correct at 20A and the screw-up is just the wrong breaker.
• The loop was present between the CE-1000 and the previous AVR as well (a HTR-5280). The Monolith 7X wasn't around back then but I suspect it too would have experienced ground hum.
• This loop hum between the old HTR-5280 & CE-1000 also existed prior to the home theater room getting a make over and the supposedly new dedicated (to the room) 20A circuit.
• Both of the AVRs do not utilize a "safety" ground. I believe the Monolith 7X does (though not sure until I check again), and the CE-1000 definitely does.

My solution to the ground loop issues are:

• A 16 AWG conductor (one side of a lamp zip cord) connecting the ground lug on the Monolith 7X to the retention screw/nut on the RX-A810s RS232 port (which is of course a means of attaching to the metal chassis).
• An active (DC powered) box with an RCA connection to the AVRs SW output, and a XLR connection to the CE-1000. This box does two things, it serves as a intermediary amp for the signal, and also employs isolation transformers to break ground loops.

That's a bit of a mouthful, and why I was going to get into that in its own thread, but what the heck let's just roll with it now.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the info. Interesting, NAD came out on top and the bottom. I used to use some NAD stuff back in my pre-multi-channel days. I had a C1700? preamp tuner, and a Power Envelope 2400 power amp. They were circa late 80s and sounded great with my La Scalas. The tuner in that NAD gear was 1st class; best tuner I have ever personally come across. I think the 2400 was at the start of the dynamic headroom marketing.

Good observation, that M33 is not really an AVR or AVP and I have no idea why Amir group it together with AVR/AVP in that chart.

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

Sorry I did read your first post but I saw that you mentioned a 1080P class AVR right in the beginning and missed the A810 part you did mention near the end.

No worries. I'm not one to get uptight about that kind of thing so long as no one minds me pointing to something I have already presented rather than repeat.

I read the manual of the CE1000 and saw no problem with the Denon AVRs with pre out capability up to about 4 V and still maintain THD+N or better than -90 dB. So unless there is something special about the CE1000A, if it is similar to the CE1000, I really don't know what you meant by it does not support 0.775V line level RCA, bridge mode or not. Would appreciate it if you can explain what the issue is, or post a link to Crown's explanations.

There is no difference in these contexts between the CE-1000 & CE-1000A. I don't have measuring equipment, but it seemed the amp was not being given a hot enough signal to drive it to full power. It does have crude level indicators on it which seemed to corroborate that. Also, the CE-1000 manual states it has:

Sensitivity: A two-position switch located on​

the back panel next to the Mode switch.​

Switchable between 1.4 volts for full output​

into an 8-ohm load (default setting), or a fixed​

voltage gain of 26 dB. 0.775-volt sensitivity​

available as a Service Option.​

The manual for my Crown XLS-1002 (not previously mentioned, nor utilized in the home theater rack) has this to say about its sensitivity:

Selectable 1.4Vrms or .775Vrms input sensitivity to drive any source to full power​

Between all of this and other perhaps Internet lore I have come across in the past, I came to the understanding that typical RCA so called "line levels" were of the 0.775V variety and XLR found on pro gear and higher end consumer stuff was somewhere between 2VB to 2.4V. Though after my short time here on Audioholics, I'm rapidly starting to think I may have an improper education on the subject.

Again, not trying to discourage you from getting an AVP, its you money, but I am sure you want to get one that performs as good as an AVR if not better (it should be better..). I only mention AVRs as an interim low cost solution while waiting, and you also question it in your first post. For example, the AV7706's list price is $1,000 more than the AVR-X4700H, and you get more than 20 dB higher in THD+N so pay more and get less theoretical sound quality! The AVR-X4700H also has very good internal amps that can power your surround speakers while your Monolith amp powers the main 7 channels.

Then in one to two years you should be able to sell the AVR easily when you may be ready to choose between a potentially available CX-A5300, or AV7707 (may be 7708), assuming they would likely be much more bug free by then and upgraded to at least match Denon AVRs and the Marantz SR8015's performance. That's what I am doing myself, currently using an AVR-X4400H while waiting for the availability of an AVP that I can justify switching back to.

I want you (and anyone else) to encourage or discourage me, as long as it is based upon my stated goals and preferences and not your own personal ones. I think you're doing a great job of exactly that and I totally appreciate it. Even then I'm still interested in the preferences and goals of others here relating to HiFi and their reasons for them. I may actually change my own based on what I learn, or I may retain mine as they are.

It seems to me I need to look into measured ratings of things better. I know manufacturers are not all that forthcoming on that front, but now I am learning about places like AH and some others that do independent measurements. Also, given what I'm hearing here, I may be more open to AVR (with only RCA pre-outs) if this ground loop nonsense can be tamed well and voltages are sufficient to achieve full rated power.

I foresee much more discussion here!

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

Update: Got an email from AC4L that my order cancellation request has been accomplished. That's relieving. I'll definitely consider them in the future. I notice they do sell some new stuff too and not just refurbs.

 

[PENG]

Though after my short time here on Audioholics, I'm rapidly starting to think I may have an improper education on the subject.

You come to the right place for that.

For the entry level (that has pre out):
Take a look of the following reviews/measurements:
Denon AVR-X3600H 9.2CH IMAX Enhanced AV Receiver Offers Best In Class Features | Audioholics

According to Gene:

With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering.

And for actual measurements, here's an example, the X6700H (the X3700H and X4700H should be similar because they have the same vol control and DAC ICs):

Note that it measured at 4.4 V @92 dB SINAD, that's 0.0025% THD+N

And the only Marantz AVR that came close to Denon AVRs is the SR8015, not the AV7705/7706, not even the $5,000 AV8805 AVP can do it:

Marantz SR8015 Review (Home Theater AVR) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Or you can read AH's bench test results, you will see that they are comparable to ASR's:

Marantz SR8015 Measurements & Conclusion | Audioholics

Gene's comment on the pre out of the SR8015:

The SR8015 is capable of outputting > 4Vrms unclipped from the multi-ch preamp outputs which is more than 2X voltage drive needed to make most external amplifiers reach full unclipped power.

4 V will drive your Crown amp to output 800 W 8 ohms or 1,600 W 4 ohms even if you set it the lower gain setting of 26 dB. Or, 2 V will drive the amp to 200 W 8 ohms and 400 W 4 ohms.

So I don't see any issues with that. For Yamaha, the RX-A800 series would likely have trouble driving your Crown amp to its full rated output, not sure about the higher end RX-A2080 and 3080, but the RX-A8A that Gene's just reviewed should be comparable to Denon's. It does have an issue with having inconsistent distortions measured that seemed to vary between channels iirc.

RX-A860 as an example:

Yamaha RX-A860 AVENTAGE 7.2 Atmos/DTS:X A/V Receiver Review | Audioholics

This is what Gene said about its preamp performance:

Sadly, it looks like Yamaha has taken a step backwards with the RX-A860. At 1.9Vrms output, the receiver shut down. When I checked at a slightly lower output (1.6Vrms), I noticed a pretty nasty FFT distortion profile. There simply is NO excuse for this in a day and age when opamps are cheap and supply voltage is plentiful.

So you cannot generalize, have to look at the specific model's measured performance.

It seems to me I need to look into measured ratings of things better. I know manufacturers are not all that forthcoming on that front, but now I am learning about places like AH and some others that do independent measurements. Also, given what I'm hearing here, I may be more open to AVR (with only RCA pre-outs) if this ground loop nonsense can be tamed well and voltages are sufficient to achieve full rated power.

I do believe that as long as THD+N is better than even -80 dB, that is 0.01%, it should be below the threshold of audibility for normal people. Just keep in mind those measurements you see are typically measure with a 1 kHz sine wave at 2 V RCA/4 V XLR, so you may want to read the fine print such as the graphs attached above so you can see the distortion levels at both low and highest output voltage. And then you may want to also compare the IMD levels, SNR/DR and other measurements between models, not just THD+N. Also, if one wants to argue that 0.01% or 0.001% makes no difference anyway, then I would say if that's the philosophy, then why not save money by going with the cheapest one that has the needed features, and spend the saving on other things that matters.

 

[lovinthehd]

No. I am currently using some uh err "commodity" RCA interconnects that I scrounged out of my parts drawers LOL, while I waited to receive parts I ordered to make proper ones. I'll link here to the parts I'm building from:

• Connector
• Cable

My ground loop issues are that any amp I hook to my AVR via RCA gets me that lovely 60Hz "warm" tone. Well, screw being warm! I want "clean", "pure", "uncolored", "honest"... you get the point LOL. Anyway I don't know how it measures for amplitude, but it's quite noticeable. Keep in mind my mains are 105db@1M sensitive though. Here are some notable facts surrounding this issue:

• Loop hum is present between the RX-A810 and CE-1000.
• Loop hum is present between the RX-A810 and Monolith 7X.
• The RX-A810 & CE-1000 are plugged into the same bank on the Furman.
• The Monolith 7X is plugged into it's own receptacle on the same electric circuit that the Furman is (the other member of the same dual gang in fact).
• I temporarily plugged the Monolith 7X into the Furman also, so that EVERYTHING was on the same bank of the Furman (apart from some DC wall-warts which are on the other bank). The loop hum persisted anyway so back it went to its own receptacle.
• The circuit all this equipment is on is a 20A which supplies only the home theater room, though it is not dedicated to just the rack gear. To rule out any interference from installed dim-able lighting, all steps were tested with all lights off too, with no change in result. **** the electricians were supposed to put in a 20A circuit. Looking at the service panel, I see it has a 15A breaker. I sure hope the actual wiring (now in the walls) is correct at 20A and the screw-up is just the wrong breaker.
• The loop was present between the CE-1000 and the previous AVR as well (a HTR-5280). The Monolith 7X wasn't around back then but I suspect it too would have experienced ground hum.
• This loop hum between the old HTR-5280 & CE-1000 also existed prior to the home theater room getting a make over and the supposedly new dedicated (to the room) 20A circuit.
• Both of the AVRs do not utilize a "safety" ground. I believe the Monolith 7X does (though not sure until I check again), and the CE-1000 definitely does.

My solution to the ground loop issues are:

• A 16 AWG conductor (one side of a lamp zip cord) connecting the ground lug on the Monolith 7X to the retention screw/nut on the RX-A810s RS232 port (which is of course a means of attaching to the metal chassis).
• An active (DC powered) box with an RCA connection to the AVRs SW output, and a XLR connection to the CE-1000. This box does two things, it serves as a intermediary amp for the signal, and also employs isolation transformers to break ground loops.

That's a bit of a mouthful, and why I was going to get into that in its own thread, but what the heck let's just roll with it now.

When I started using XLS Crown amps (gen 1) with my setup back in my previous house, I also had ground loop issues. I could lift the ground on the XLS with a cheater plug, found later it came thru the cable box. Seems the cable company installation established a secondary ground to that of the house. I moved shortly thereafter and just continued to use the cheater plugs until I moved in that case. No problems in my new place, but everything, including cable, looks to be hooked into the main ground for the house...

FWIW the Crown XLS gen 1 did not have the sensitivity adjustment, they were just 1.4V for such. My other power amps aside from the Crowns I've had for using rca have also been 1.4V. Using the .775V setting on the gen 2 XLS has a slight penalty in SNR if I recall correctly, too (wouldn't worry about it for a sub tho).

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

Looks like the AVR-X3600H is getting harder to find (at an authorized retailer = full warranty). The AVR-X3700H is more available. I just got done pouring over the science review for the 3700 and I just couldn't figure out if the preamp-outs would support as hi a voltage as the 3600. It shows it will support 1.4Vrms. My Monolith 7X would like to see at least 1.49Vrms. Can the 3700 do better if some amps are shut off like the 3600? If so, how much better?

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

When I started using XLS Crown amps (gen 1) with my setup back in my previous house, I also had ground loop issues. I could lift the ground on the XLS with a cheater plug, found later it came thru the cable box. Seems the cable company installation established a secondary ground to that of the house. I moved shortly thereafter and just continued to use the cheater plugs until I moved in that case. No problems in my new place, but everything, including cable, looks to be hooked into the main ground for the house...

Ya know, your post here made me think of something. I don't have a cable, satellite, or whatever box as I cut the cord a decade or so ago. But I do have a UHF/VHF/FM antenna I installed on the roof to compensate for that and... I have my TVs connected to it, but I also have my AVRs FM antenna port connected to it too! That roof antenna is connected to a thick bare copper grounding cable in the basement. There certainly could be a difference in ground potential between the electrical outlet my AVR is on and that ground cable. Hmm... I'll have to check that out.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ya know, your post here made me think of something. I don't have a cable, satellite, or whatever box as I cut the cord a decade or so ago. But I do have a UHF/VHF/FM antenna I installed on the roof to compensate for that and... I have my TVs connected to it, but I also have my AVRs FM antenna port connected to it too! That roof antenna is connected to a thick bare copper grounding cable in the basement. There certainly could be a difference in ground potential between the electrical outlet my AVR is on and that ground cable. Hmm... I'll have to check that out.

They can sneak in thru various gear....how's your internet connected if it is? The antenna sounds worth checking out. Better to solve the actual problem than try and address it with different gear/cables....

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

They can sneak in thru various gear....how's your internet connected if it is? The antenna sounds worth checking out. Better to solve the actual problem than try and address it with different gear/cables....

I have symmetric Gigabit via fiber-optic.

 

[lovinthehd]

I have symmetric Gigabit via fiber-optic.

Try things without the Furman?

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

Try things without the Furman?

It began way before I even had that.

 

[PENG]

Looks like the AVR-X3600H is getting harder to find (at an authorized retailer = full warranty). The AVR-X3700H is more available. I just got done pouring over the science review for the 3700 and I just couldn't figure out if the preamp-outs would support as hi a voltage as the 3600. It shows it will support 1.4Vrms. My Monolith 7X would like to see at least 1.49Vrms. Can the 3700 do better if some amps are shut off like the 3600? If so, how much better?

The x3700h has the same vol control and dac chips as the x3600h. It can output up to about 4.2 V. Did you see the graph I posted for the x6700h?
The 3700 will do about the same.

I think you misunderstood Amir's remarks on the 1.4V thing That is not the limit, but is the point when SINAD would peak and would start falling gradually as the out voltage increases because at that point the power amp (the internal Amps) would start to clip and the resulting distortions would in turn causes the pre out distortions to increase. So the clipping Amir referred to was the internal power amp, not the preamp. This behavior applies to most AVRs including Yamaha's. Gene explained that too in the x3600h review I linked earlier. if you read the whole article you would understand.

The x3700h has the preamp mode that allows you to disconnect the internal power amp input to the pre out so that the pre out will output well over 2V, up to about 4V with THD+N remain as low as -90 dB.

You are not the only one who got confused by Amir's ambiguous wording on his 1.4V remark. He didn't bother fixing it, partly because anything lower than 90 dB SINAD is a disaster for him. That's why he made those negative comments about the AV7705 and the other Marantz AVRs, except the 8015. Even if you don't use the preamp mode, at 2V the x3700h's distortions will still be lower than that of the AV7705. In preamp mode it will be 20 dB lower.

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

The x3700h has the same vol control and dac chips as the x3600h. It can output up to about 4.2 V. Did you see the graph I posted for the x6700h?
The 3700 will do about the same.

I think you misunderstood Amir's remarks on the 1.4V thing That is not the limit, but is the point when SINAD would peak and would start falling gradually as the out voltage increases because at that point the power amp (the internal Amps) would start to clip and the resulting distortions would in turn causes the pre out distortions to increase. So the clipping Amir referred to was the internal power amp, not the preamp. This behavior applies to most AVRs including Yamaha's. Gene explained that too in the x3600h review I linked earlier. if you read the whole article you would understand.

The x3700h has the preamp mode that allows you to disconnect the internal power amp input to the pre out so that the pre out will output well over 2V, up to about 4V with THD+N remain as low as -90 dB.

You are not the only one who got confused by Amir's ambiguous wording on his 1.4V remark. He didn't bother fixing it, partly because anything lower than 90 dB SINAD is a disaster for him. That's why he made those negative comments about the AV7705 and the other Marantz AVRs, except the 8015. Even if you don't use the preamp mode, at 2V the x3700h's distortions will still be lower than that of the AV7705. In preamp mode it will be 20 dB lower.

LOL, I did read the whole article but still wasn't sure enough to make yet another snappy buy. As it stands, I can get a 3600 from some oddball seller on Amazon. I can get the 3700 from Amazon as the seller, or from Best Buy where I have a local store. I do know that BB is a Denon authorized reseller.

If you're still hanging around in the next little while, I would like to get your opinion as to which route you would take if you were in my shoes. I am heavily leaning towards a 3700 from BB.

 

[PENG]

LOL, I did read the whole article but still wasn't sure enough to make yet another snappy buy. As it stands, I can get a 3600 from some oddball seller on Amazon. I can get the 3700 from Amazon as the seller, or from Best Buy where I have a local store. I do know that BB is a Denon authorized reseller.

If you're still hanging around in the next little while, I would like to get your opinion as to which route you would take if you were in my shoes. I am heavily leaning towards a 3700 from BB.

No problem, just give me 8 to 9 hours, its almost mid night where I am. I can explain the technical stuff and help you interpret the bench test results if necessary. In the end you obviously have to make an informed decision.
You do have very nice speakers, and that's the most important piece for sound quality.

 

[Zero Snake Oil]

No problem, just give me 8 to 9 hours, its almost mid night where I am. I can explain the technical stuff and help you interpret the bench test results if necessary. In the end you obviously have to make an informed decision.
You do have very nice speakers, and that's the most important piece for sound quality.

Don't knock yourself out over it. From what I can tell there was one area that the 3600 came out on top by a little. But then the 3700 has 1 8k in and none on the 3600. The big thing for me though is on bigger purchases like this I like to avoid more sketchy sellers. So even if the 3600 is the better choice, it would still have to be available via a reputable seller with full warranty intact etc.

 

[PENG]

If you're still hanging around in the next little while, I would like to get your opinion as to which route you would take if you were in my shoes. I am heavily leaning towards a 3700 from BB.

My preamble: Everyone has their own preference for looks and features, as well as sound signature though once you get pass the entry level devices, sound signature should just be neutral, or transparent. Most claims of the so called sound signature differences would likely disappear in a tightly controlled comparison listening tests when no DSP (ie. direct mode) functions are used. The latter is well documented by various tests and studies but people just don't want their bubbles burst and hearsay, expectation bias, even Placebo continue to do a good job perpetuating such talks, and helped by the internet in recent year.

With that made clear, I am going to focus on objective measurements. In my understanding, subjective measurements would be fine for those who believe that it is one's ears and brain that matter, not specs and bench tests/measurements.

I do not mean to pick on the AV7705, or the SR7015, but since it was you first pick so I am going to use them for reference in comparing specs and measurements. It also helps making the comparison fair and objective because if you are now leaning on a Denon AVR, you will be pleased to know that comparable Denon and Marantz models have virtually the same design, circuitry and componentry in their preamp/DAC signal path. The main difference is that Marantz, for whatever reasons (I suspect mainly a marketing strategy) keep sticking their so called HDAM at the end of the pre out signal path. That, I believe is the main reason for their much measured higher distortions and noise. I do not have the facts to support that, but if you compare their schematics/block diagrams, there seem to have no other logical explanation.

To make it easier to read and follow up on, I am going to use multiple but shorter posts. Now let's first look at distortions+noise based on the worse of the two channels (FL/FR) measured by ASR:

AV7705........................ 0.018%
AVR-X3700H............... 0.001348%

In terms of %, the AV7705, a so called separate processor is more than 13 times higher, or about 23 dB higher.

Counter arguments? Sure, how about the contents of the harmonics, may be Marantz's distortions are mainly of the lower order 2nd harmonics. Both AH and ASR do provide the FFT diagrams so one can take a look of the harmonic contents. Let's compare the two:

You can see the differences between the two are quite significant in terms of the contents of the harmonic distortions. Most people would consider even 0.1% distortions would be below the threshold of audibility, but the question is, would you prefer one that has 13 times higher distortions/noise and it costs 50% more?

More to come..