Logitech dropping support for the older Harmony remotes

panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
The older Harmony remotes were fine. I wasn't a fan, but had many friends and customers that loved them.

The hub based remotes have been nothing but excellent for me. I had one die on me, but the other three have been going strong for almost a decade.

I've got backups for all of them if they die, so I should be covered as long as Logitech keeps up their end and doesn't kill their servers so we can program them.

Time will tell.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
The older Harmony remotes were fine. I wasn't a fan, but had many friends and customers that loved them.

The hub based remotes have been nothing but excellent for me. I had one die on me, but the other three have been going strong for almost a decade.

I've got backups for all of them if they die, so I should be covered as long as Logitech keeps up their end and doesn't kill their servers so we can program them.

Time will tell.
I still have the Pro 2400 they sent while I was a tester, in case en Elite remote fails or I find someone who wants/needs the base- it does more than the smaller hub and it has an ethernet port, so connectivity is no problem. It also has SMA antenna, so that can be located where it's needed, by using an extension cable.

I would like to see someone by the servers and rights to the software, but one of the comments the Mgr made, which I had posted, was that app-based control is very popular. I don't see switching between apps as a good way to control a system, but I assume this is for mass consumption, not custom integration.
 
D

dolynick

Full Audioholic
I bought a Harmony 890 back when they were getting popular. I gather it's not on the unsupported list just published but I gave up on it a while back already. It was alright, but after many years it started to get really touchy about actually charging on the base. No amount of cleaning of the contacts, etc seemed to help and it was perpetually dead when you actually needed it.

I set up a newer Ultimate One for my folks many years later. It was a nice device but I can't say I was a huge fan of the online programming they had at that point. I get why they went that way, but it just felt like yet another service/account I have to remember and manage. And one prone to forgetting because how often do you really need to reprogram a remote?

Then the shut down happened. I refuse to consider them any longer as I have little faith the service will remain available despite what the company claims. At some point, they'll just cut it off with financial justifications or something.

I have two URC MX-980 remotes that I setup and program myself. Dealing with the company to get access to the software was a pain, but they seem to have given in on that more nowadays. You definitely need to have more of an idea of what you're doing with these, but in the end, it's more flexible and I like that you can set things up with more freedom of detail on behavior.

I also picked up an Unfolded Circle Remote Two to try. It's a beautiful remote. Unfortunately, it works quite differently than the others and I couldn't get it to work in the way I wanted at the time (they had just started shipping). I didn't have time to fight with it and go through the learning curve at the time, plus I had a working MX-980 in that system already so it went back into the box for revisiting at a later date. I haven't gotten back to it yet.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I still have the Pro 2400 they sent while I was a tester, in case en Elite remote fails or I find someone who wants/needs the base- it does more than the smaller hub and it has an ethernet port, so connectivity is no problem. It also has SMA antenna, so that can be located where it's needed, by using an extension cable.

I would like to see someone by the servers and rights to the software, but one of the comments the Mgr made, which I had posted, was that app-based control is very popular. I don't see switching between apps as a good way to control a system, but I assume this is for mass consumption, not custom integration.
Having to switch apps to control a system is terrible. They make some remote apps that attempt to replicate a true "universal remote" but I haven't used one that was very good.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I want good old fashioned buttons on the remote.
Same. That's why I bought backups. I've heard nothing but good things about URC, but I haven't found a remote model that's "simple" enough. I need very few buttons on the remote to control things.

I don't like using touch screen remotes. I don't want to have to look down at the remote to figure out what I'm doing.

EDIT: I looked at the newer URC options and there are a few models that would work for me very well, but holy hell are they expensive.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I bought a Harmony 890 back when they were getting popular. I gather it's not on the unsupported list just published but I gave up on it a while back already. It was alright, but after many years it started to get really touchy about actually charging on the base. No amount of cleaning of the contacts, etc seemed to help and it was perpetually dead when you actually needed it.

I set up a newer Ultimate One for my folks many years later. It was a nice device but I can't say I was a huge fan of the online programming they had at that point. I get why they went that way, but it just felt like yet another service/account I have to remember and manage. And one prone to forgetting because how often do you really need to reprogram a remote?

Then the shut down happened. I refuse to consider them any longer as I have little faith the service will remain available despite what the company claims. At some point, they'll just cut it off with financial justifications or something.

I have two URC MX-980 remotes that I setup and program myself. Dealing with the company to get access to the software was a pain, but they seem to have given in on that more nowadays. You definitely need to have more of an idea of what you're doing with these, but in the end, it's more flexible and I like that you can set things up with more freedom of detail on behavior.

I also picked up an Unfolded Circle Remote Two to try. It's a beautiful remote. Unfortunately, it works quite differently than the others and I couldn't get it to work in the way I wanted at the time (they had just started shipping). I didn't have time to fight with it and go through the learning curve at the time, plus I had a working MX-980 in that system already so it went back into the box for revisiting at a later date. I haven't gotten back to it yet.
The programming was online to make it easy to create a large database of commands- the thing they did that makes them unique is the maintenance- they would fix codes while someone was on the phone with a tech support question unless it was after hours and they had some ong hours, for a long time.

Where did you buy the Unfolded remote? Did they point you to training videos for programming?
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I want good old fashioned buttons on the remote.
And definitely no swipe function on the touchscreen. It's easy to remember where the buttons are located- I don't know why remote manufacturers try to force some 'features' on everyone.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic Samurai
Wonder how long they will support the harmony-ultimate one . I can’t find my programming cable for my other remote. One without a digital screen on it. My avr remote volume broke so I use this one. Real shame they quit making new ones.
IMG_6476.jpeg
 
D

dolynick

Full Audioholic
The programming was online to make it easy to create a large database of commands- the thing they did that makes them unique is the maintenance- they would fix codes while someone was on the phone with a tech support question unless it was after hours and they had some ong hours, for a long time.

Where did you buy the Unfolded remote? Did they point you to training videos for programming?
I understood why they set it up that way. They were obviously evolving the platform over time as the software for my 890 was a stand alone app when I got it.

The Unfolded Circle Remote Two can be found here:

I pre-ordered it during the kickstarter phase. It's out of stock now. I'm not sure if it will come back into stock or not as it looks like they're preparing a new remote for release.

They do have support stuff set up for their Unfolded OS. It was all just very new when I got mine and it felt like I was going to have to do a lot of digging to figure it out at the time. The room it was going to be used in needs some slightly non-standard behaviors set up and it was too much of a chore at the time when I already had a working URC configured and had other more pressing concerns to deal with. Some day I should dig it out and revisit it. The Remote Two was generally well received when it came out but I expect the software platform took a while to catch up. It's probably fine now.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I understood why they set it up that way. They were obviously evolving the platform over time as the software for my 890 was a stand alone app when I got it.

The Unfolded Circle Remote Two can be found here:

I pre-ordered it during the kickstarter phase. It's out of stock now. I'm not sure if it will come back into stock or not as it looks like they're preparing a new remote for release.

They do have support stuff set up for their Unfolded OS. It was all just very new when I got mine and it felt like I was going to have to do a lot of digging to figure it out at the time. The room it was going to be used in needs some slightly non-standard behaviors set up and it was too much of a chore at the time when I already had a working URC configured and had other more pressing concerns to deal with. Some day I should dig it out and revisit it. The Remote Two was generally well received when it came out but I expect the software platform took a while to catch up. It's probably fine now.
Looks like they spent a lot of money for a small number of really great-looking remotes. I bet they were hoping someone would come along and buy the company- I signed up for notifications, but may contact them if I get nothing in a few days. It looks familiar, but I may have decided "I don't want to be on teh bleeding edge again" and let it go.

I'm always leery of remotes that have significant weight and are made of metal and glass- dropping can't be good for it and at 165 gms (5.8 oz), it's not light.
 
D

dolynick

Full Audioholic
Looks like they spent a lot of money for a small number of really great-looking remotes. I bet they were hoping someone would come along and buy the company- I signed up for notifications, but may contact them if I get nothing in a few days. It looks familiar, but I may have decided "I don't want to be on teh bleeding edge again" and let it go.

I'm always leery of remotes that have significant weight and are made of metal and glass- dropping can't be good for it and at 165 gms (5.8 oz), it's not light.
As I alluded to in my first mention of it, the fit and finish of the Remote Two is miles ahead of anything else I've seen. I suppose your concern is valid about the weight, but it's not something that I even considered when evaluating the device.

The device itself works differently from other remotes I've used. Harmony and URC devices do IR from the remote itself. The Remote Two is a wifi device and the IR hub is what sends the signals. The remote just connects to the hub or by IP directly for certain devices if supported. As such, it's the only remote I've seen that can actually control an Apple TV box successfully (the only issue was it doesn't have a trackpad so it's not as easy as with the proper Apple remote).

On the software side I suspect most things are fine, particularly if you're looking for something Harmony level in control options. It names things and organizes things a little differently, which is part of where I got hung up. If I were to sit down again and properly apply myself to figuring it out, I'm sure it would be alright. One thing that does apparently seem to still be an issue is devices with power toggles rather than discreet on/off commands. They don't have a provision for that yet. This is where I really appreciate the extra complexity of the URC remotes, as you have a very basic variable and logic system to do handle customized scenarios like that.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
As I alluded to in my first mention of it, the fit and finish of the Remote Two is miles ahead of anything else I've seen. I suppose your concern is valid about the weight, but it's not something that I even considered when evaluating the device.

The device itself works differently from other remotes I've used. Harmony and URC devices do IR from the remote itself. The Remote Two is a wifi device and the IR hub is what sends the signals. The remote just connects to the hub or by IP directly for certain devices if supported. As such, it's the only remote I've seen that can actually control an Apple TV box successfully (the only issue was it doesn't have a trackpad so it's not as easy as with the proper Apple remote).

On the software side I suspect most things are fine, particularly if you're looking for something Harmony level in control options. It names things and organizes things a little differently, which is part of where I got hung up. If I were to sit down again and properly apply myself to figuring it out, I'm sure it would be alright. One thing that does apparently seem to still be an issue is devices with power toggles rather than discreet on/off commands. They don't have a provision for that yet. This is where I really appreciate the extra complexity of the URC remotes, as you have a very basic variable and logic system to do handle customized scenarios like that.
WRT fit & finish, Control4 has one that looks similar, but mere mortals can't buy their products because we aren't authorized sellers and they don't give out the software, nor do URC or RTi. Either way, it looks great!

With more equipment moving toward IP control, and I saw that the Unfolded can do RS-232, the communication with devices is generally much better, plus two-way communication is possible, so the state of the device can be seen on the remote, which is great. However, I would never try to operate only on WiFi if wired is an option.

The Apple track pad- was that for volume?

HArmony and URC do IR from the remote unless a hub is included and then, Harmony could do IR, IP or BT (which was great for AppleTV and some others), the URC were doing IP and IP, not sure if they do BT because I haven't kept up on their training. The Harmony Companion needs a hub because it doesn't do IR, by itself. It doesn't have a Help button, either- if I need to correct something, I use the app but that's rare.

Toggling commands have been a pebble in the shoe of installers/programmers for at least 25 years- manufcturers have generally gone to discretes (especially for power and inputs), but one of the main reasons they still exist is providers like Time-Warner/Spectrum, Comcast, ATT, etc- if you remember the gold-ish silver Scientific Atlanta cable box called Explorer 8300, they were shipped to the cable providers with discrete power commands and a jack on the back for IR control, but the providers disabled them. The cable boxes used to have a workaround for power On, but even that went away. Now, the Spectrum 101 and 201 boxes use IR or RF from their remote, but they don't give a rat's butt about aftermarket, so we still suffer.

The workaround I used for anything with a toggling command was to add a button on the screen in a convenient place/page.

Mind if I ask how much the Unfolded cost? I seem to remember $299, but I'm not sure if it was that one- I checked out several new ones around the time when Logitech stuck the fork in Harmony. I would like to see someone come out with a successful alternative to Crestron, C4 and a few others that are only sold through larger integration companies- the opening/ongoing order amounts are too much for a small company to bear.
 
D

dolynick

Full Audioholic
The Apple track pad- was that for volume?
It works like mouse or scroll wheel for faster navigation in various situations. There are a few cases where it is necessary to access a feature - The F1TV app requires a "swipe left" to bring out the stream selection (F1 or International coverage) for example.

HArmony and URC do IR from the remote unless a hub is included and then
I know the others have hubs, etc available too for in-cabinet set-ups and things like that. My main point was that the Remote Two simply does not have an IR emitter on it at all. It relies entirely on an IP connection via wifi to it's hub to control things by IR. Not the end of the world, but somewhat backwards from how I would normally set up a remote and station.

they don't give out the software, nor do URC
Not entirely true. I've been programming my own MX-980 remotes for 20 years now. I am not a vendor or authorized service tech for URC, just a home user.

That being said... No, it's not like setting up a Harmony (or even an Unfolded OS device). Definitely more nitty-gritty in the details. Also more flexible if you need it.

Mind if I ask how much the Unfolded cost? I seem to remember $299,
I don't actually remember as it has been several years now, and the initial pre-order was a year or two before that too. I want to say $399 US (I seem to recall it cost me $500-$600 CAD) but prices may have come down since then as it was the initial launch. Pricey, but at the time URC was being a pain about software access (since resolved), Harmony was no longer an option and I expected to need a new remote within the next year or so. It turns out that my current remote has been able to stay much longer than expected (long story, won't get into it) so I haven't really needed to revisit the Remote Two yet.

Yes. I know the above makes it a waste. That wasn't my intention the the Remote Two has sort of been a victim of circumstances so far. Don't take it as a criticism of the remote itself or software. I'm sure I would have been much more invested in setting it up and using it if I hadn't been able to keep the one MX-980 in place yet and required special sequences to accommodate a couple extra-clueless users.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It works like mouse or scroll wheel for faster navigation in various situations. There are a few cases where it is necessary to access a feature - The F1TV app requires a "swipe left" to bring out the stream selection (F1 or International coverage) for example.



I know the others have hubs, etc available too for in-cabinet set-ups and things like that. My main point was that the Remote Two simply does not have an IR emitter on it at all. It relies entirely on an IP connection via wifi to it's hub to control things by IR. Not the end of the world, but somewhat backwards from how I would normally set up a remote and station.



Not entirely true. I've been programming my own MX-980 remotes for 20 years now. I am not a vendor or authorized service tech for URC, just a home user.

That being said... No, it's not like setting up a Harmony (or even an Unfolded OS device). Definitely more nitty-gritty in the details. Also more flexible if you need it.



I don't actually remember as it has been several years now, and the initial pre-order was a year or two before that too. I want to say $399 US (I seem to recall it cost me $500-$600 CAD) but prices may have come down since then as it was the initial launch. Pricey, but at the time URC was being a pain about software access (since resolved), Harmony was no longer an option and I expected to need a new remote within the next year or so. It turns out that my current remote has been able to stay much longer than expected (long story, won't get into it) so I haven't really needed to revisit the Remote Two yet.

Yes. I know the above makes it a waste. That wasn't my intention the the Remote Two has sort of been a victim of circumstances so far. Don't take it as a criticism of the remote itself or software. I'm sure I would have been much more invested in setting it up and using it if I hadn't been able to keep the one MX-980 in place yet and required special sequences to accommodate a couple extra-clueless users.
I have used AppleTVs, just don't own them. Usually use a uni remote for the system since the wheel wasn't absolutely necessary. Was asking more about how you use(d) it.

WRT IR from the remote, are you sure about it not having that? The website shows "built-in IR LED" on the pages for the 2 and 3.

If you have been programming your MX980 for 20 years, you shouldn't have gotten the software from the dealer and the company definitely wouldn't send it to you unless you convinced them that you were a dealer. Part of the dealer agreement refers to us not allowing end users having it- this is specfically to prevent their tech support being overloaded with calls and because it's proprietary, so they don't want people digging into their stuff.

Not sure I would call it a waste- maybe you can have some dialog with the company about your likes/dislikes and if you sound to them like someone who knows something about this kind of thing, they may let you into their Inner Sanctum.

If your remote still works after you expected it to not work, that's great- I'm about the last person who wants to see equipment die early or because of some BS like COVID, a buyout (Denon/Marantz, etc) or being parted out and closed very soon after buyout (far too many to list).

My curiosity would force me to want to find out what the Unfolded can do- Harmony told me that I couldn't do certain things with the H1000, but I found ways. Then, they needed to replace that with the H1100 because of software problems and what do you know? The empty button spaces at the sides of the display were suddenly available for custom commands, as I (and probably others) had requested. If Unfolded is interested in bettering their remotes, they should be responsive to suggestions.

How did you access their command library? Or, did you enter a code, to bring up the commands they had (similar to more simple brands & models)?

If you want a good ex of cluless- one customer was in his early-60s at the time and I set up a Harmony 880 for the basement TV but after he complained about the rubber ring, I replaced it with a different model. He was too cheap to boot the CRT TV that came with the condo and it not only had a toggling power command, the inputs scrolled on the TV and there were no direct commands. I came up with a way to get it to work WHEN I USED IT and I told him that as long as the green LED was flashing, he needed to aim the remote near the TV. If it had taken 6 months for him to stop lowering his hand as soon a he pressed the activity buttons, it would be a miracle. The problem- he was standing behind a sofa and that blocked the IR being sent by the remote. Even if he wasn't behind the sofa, the carpet stopped it reaching the IR repeater.

As a contrast, I was programming an H1000 not long after the equipment had been installed in another house and as I worked at my laptop, the homeowner's daughter sat next to me on the love seat and wanted to watch a DVD. Not a word was said, but she looked at the remote, pressed the Watch DVD button, looed at the V and then pressed Play when the buttons appeared along the bottom edge. The movie started and she sat back to watch. She had turned 3 a few months before.

Not long after, I was at that house to discuss something with her dad and she went to him, to say something. He chuckled and when I asked what he was laughing at, he said "She told me that she doesn't like going to her cousin's house because she doesn't like the way their system works".
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
Not entirely true. I've been programming my own MX-980 remotes for 20 years now. I am not a vendor or authorized service tech for URC, just a home user.

That being said... No, it's not like setting up a Harmony (or even an Unfolded OS device). Definitely more nitty-gritty in the details. Also more flexible if you need it.
If you want to program any new URC remotes, or update your software for older remotes you have to complete the training first. They've gotten very stingy over the last 7 years. I really don't have the time to sit through all the training but have to keep the software database up to date.
 
D

dolynick

Full Audioholic
If you have been programming your MX980 for 20 years, you shouldn't have gotten the software from the dealer and the company definitely wouldn't send it to you unless you convinced them that you were a dealer. Part of the dealer agreement refers to us not allowing end users having it- this is specfically to prevent their tech support being overloaded with calls and because it's proprietary, so they don't want people digging into their stuff.
The condition for the purchase of my original MX-980 was that I could get access to the software. I live 200 miles away from the point of sale and on site programming was problematic. URC itself gave me access to the software.

You guys are correct that they did get very sticky about programming software access several years back. That was one reason I was looking for alternatives. A year or two later, I requested access again and was given it with no further hassle. Seemed like a policy change after some bad PR.

WRT IR from the remote, are you sure about it not having that? The website shows "built-in IR LED" on the pages for the 2 and 3.
The Remote Two does not have an IR emitter inside the remote itself. It only sends IR from the hub. I originally set up the hub next to the equipment and nothing would happen when pointing the remote at the devices (the hub was facing out from them). I had to move the hub to the back of the room facing the equipment for IR to work at all. It comes with the hub though, so "included IR emitter" is accurate.

How did you access their command library? Or, did you enter a code, to bring up the commands they had (similar to more simple brands & models)?
I haven't looked at it in a while but if I recall programming of the remote is done via web configuration page on the remote itself. I'm not sure if the command lookup phones home to a web database, but that would make sense (also possible the device can update itself on demand and store it internally, I just don't recall). I do not recall having to request anything from Unfolded to get code access.

The setup of Unfolded OS is much more like a Harmony device than it is a URC device. The difference being that you're not relying on a company hosted website for access to your device's configuration utility. It has it's upsides and downsides but one of the features that made me decide to look at one was the non-reliance on the graciousness and potentially fickle commitment of service of a corporate entity.
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top