Logic and Alan Dershowitz

[lovinthehd]

When I started this thread, I wanted to vent about the GOP senators who turned the impeachment trial of Donald Trump into a sham. That subject has played out. Once that happens on AH, thread scavengers often feel free to take over. As they have here.

I never intended this to morph into a spit ball fight over abortion, other Catholic doctrines, or other religious beliefs. This thread is about my anger at the shameless hypocrites who are in political power. While I may or may not agree with @sterling shoote and his opinions, I have no intention at insulting his religious faith. That's his business, and his business alone. I wish he had not brought the subject up as it has nothing to do with Trump's illegal actions or the attempt to impeach him.

At the same time, Mr. Shoote, please remember, the US Constitution strictly prohibits any laws, federal or local, that establish a dominant national religion, or favor one religion over another. It's as important to me as freedom of speech and political opinion. I've believe in that strongly enough to have spent 4 years in uniform defending those freedoms. I won't insult your religious beliefs, if you respect my strongly held beliefs.

For many years, the Catholic Church has sought to make it's doctrines become US law. This would include laws against abortion as well as laws that seek federal or state funding of parochial schools. This is would step on our Constitution. If you can figure out how to establish laws that don't defy the 1st Amendment, more power to you. But calling people murderers or sinners, if they disagree with Catholic doctrine, isn't successful. I think you already know that, as I doubt if you would have started a new thread on abortion.

As for the others who joined in since sterling shoote spoke up, CUT IT OUT.

Yessir. Just can't stand men who want to rule the uterus. Or religions. Separation of church and state was one of the smart things the founders did.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yessir. Just can't stand men who want to rule the uterus. Or religions. Separation of church and state was one of the smart things the founders did.

One of the most misunderstood truisms of US law. When my wife studied constitutional law I began to pay attention. The constitution actually says only two things about religion. First, the US government must not establish a national religion. That's easy enough to understand. The second is not restricting the free exercise of religion, which is generally used to protect just about anything claimed to be related to worship of a god. There's actually nothing in the constitution specifically about keeping religion out of government, and there are so many examples of a religion in government. My favorite examples:

- While it's not mandatory, for most offices you are sworn in on a Bible.
- Red Mass for the Supreme Court.
- The ten commandments plastered all over public buildings.
- In God We Trust on our money.
- "One nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, added by Congress in 1954 (yes, Congress)

There really isn't a separation of church and state, in other words, freedom from religion, in the Constitution.

 

[lovinthehd]

One of the most misunderstood truisms of US law. When my wife studied constitutional law I began to pay attention. The constitution actually says only two things about religion. First, the US government must not establish a national religion. That's easy enough to understand. The second is not restricting the free exercise of religion, which is generally used to protect just about anything claimed to be related to worship of a god. There's actually nothing in the constitution specifically about keeping religion out of government, and there are so many examples of a religion in government. My favorite examples:

- While it's not mandatory, for most offices you are sworn in on a Bible.
- Red Mass for the Supreme Court.
- The ten commandments plastered all over public buildings.
- In God We Trust on our money.
- "One nation under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, added by Congress in 1954 (yes, Congress)

There really isn't a separation of church and state, in other words, freedom from religion, in the Constitution.

Yes, it has seeped in of course. They probably were only thinking of various christian churches rather than other religions, too. At least it has mostly been kept separate as Jefferson mentioned, a bit of an explanation of the phrase:

In English, the exact term is an offshoot of the phrase, "wall of separation between church and state", as written in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802. In that letter, referencing the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, Jefferson writes:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[20]

Jefferson was describing to the Baptists that the United States Bill of Rights prevents the establishment of a national church, and in so doing they did not have to fear government interference in their right to expressions of religious conscience. The Bill of Rights, adopted in 1791 as ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States, was one of the earliest political expressions of religious freedom. Others were the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, also authored by Jefferson and adopted by Virginia in 1786; and the French Declaration of the Rights of the Man and of the Citizen of 1789

 

[Irvrobinson]

They probably were only thinking of various christian churches rather than other religions, too.

So true. MarkW and I, before he got banned, discussed this now and then. Mark's position was that the US was "a Christian nation", and liked to quote a list of statements by various founding fathers about the US only being suitable for Christians, supporting your point. I liked the quotes only because they were indicative of how far we've come. These men (they were all men) were the best, brightest, and most educated of 230 years ago. There are some really narrow-minded and prejudiced people around today, but I'd still rather be alive now than when the founders were alive. We have come a long way, even if we have a long way to go.

 

[mtrycrafts]

The universe is a cold and foreboding place, ...

Most of it is at 3 Kelvin, so it is cold.

 

[mtrycrafts]

..., freedom from religion, in the Constitution.

Yep, that one they missed.

 

[lovinthehd]

So true. MarkW and I, before he got banned, discussed this now and then. Mark's position was that the US was "a Christian nation", and liked to quote a list of statements by various founding fathers about the US only being suitable for Christians, supporting your point. I liked the quotes only because they were indicative of how far we've come. These men (they were all men) were the best, brightest, and most educated of 230 years ago. There are some really narrow-minded and prejudiced people around today, but I'd still rather be alive now than when the founders were alive. We have come a long way, even if we have a long way to go.

I sure as hell hope we don't devolve to a christian nation, too many of those guys aren't even christians.

 

[shadyJ]

I sure as hell we don't devolve to a christian nation, too many of those guys aren't even christians.

Good news for you..

 

[mtrycrafts]

Trend looks good.

 

[Alex2507]

As for the others who joined in since sterling shoote spoke up, CUT IT OUT.

Awe man ... I was just gettin' warmed up.

Party pooper !!!

I bet if we did a test of 16 to 25 year old men with no condom in their pocket with a hot little thing rubbing up against them and I'm betting we would see at least a 75% "fail" rate among men (assuming the girl did not make an issue of it).

This is why girls are not welcome on the Twister mat ... well that and you can't knock up another dude. It's all about risk management on the semi-pro circuit.

 

[Swerd]

This is why girls are not welcome on the Twister mat ... well that and you can't knock up another dude.

I take that to mean you are confirming that you HAVE tried.

It's all about risk management on the semi-pro circuit.

If you went pro with the the Mazola Oil Twister Tour when they offered you a chance in the big league, you'd be famous today.

 

[Alex2507]

I take that to mean you are confirming that you HAVE tried.

Whispering "I want you to have my baby" to another man is just confusing.

That's not where the two dads scenario comes from.

There, that should be the allowable maximum for groups suffering butt-hurt in one thread ... uhm, wait there's one more:

Good news for you..

Godlessness is yet another example of the great things brought to you by millennials.

Maybe the Pope was right and these little f^%&ers are sent to torment us for past sins.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Not totally godless...

 

[highfigh]

That sounds well and good as I read it from my computer at 61 years old. But I bet if we did a test of 16 to 25 year old men with no condom in their pocket with a hot little thing rubbing up against them and I'm betting we would see at least a 75% "fail" rate among men (assuming the girl did not make an issue of it). You cannot ignore nature/hormones when you say it is not difficult.
There have been studies where adolescents are fully educated on the consequences yet still do not hesitate to engage in risky sexual behavior (and I'm talking the majority).
That is a known reality!

That was my theory. It was sound, but it was wrong. (Remember the Ann Elk sketch from Monty Python?)

Yeah, I know, "I was too horny to stop", "She got me all worked up", etc. It's still a matter of letting the big head think, for a change.

 

[highfigh]

Firstly, if you're a religious person, you would say that nobody is an expert on god, as we can't possibly understand him.

Secondly, I spent 12 years in Catholic school. I'm not an expert, but I know plenty about the doctrine and beliefs.



100% agree with you here Swerd.

The RC has only had clout in the US since Kennedy was elected- before that, nobody thought he would be elected because he WAS Catholic.

In the words of Bugs Bunny, "Ironic, ain't it?".

 

[highfigh]

Not totally godless...

The Segway wasn't invented by Milennials, it was invented by Boomers.

 

[Swerd]

Godlessness is yet another example of the great things brought to you by millennials.

Maybe the Pope was right and these little f^%&ers are sent to torment us for past sins.

If you look again at the graph that @shadyJ posted, you'll notice the No Religion line began it's long climb in 1991. That was soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Iron Curtain. People stopped fearing them "Godless Commies" and stopped going to church.

Perhaps church leaders should stop blaming the millennials, and start cozying up more to Vladimir Putin.

 

[shadyJ]

If you look again at the graph that @shadyJ posted, you'll notice the No Religion line began it's long climb in 1991. That was soon after the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Iron Curtain. People stopped fearing them "Godless Commies" and stopped going to church.

Perhaps church leaders should stop blaming the millennials, and start cozying up more to Vladimir Putin.

If you look at its trajectory, it really took off during W Bush's administration in the early to mid 2000's. Almost looks to coincide with the invasion of Iraq, not surprising since that wasn't the most popular war yet the evangelicals were loving it. I bet you Trump's administration will accelerate this trend. No young person likes Trump except those weirdo incel guys, and Evangelicals have so closely aligned themselves with him. The decisions made at that stage of life tend to stick. Trump may well be the best thing to happen for atheism in American history. His greatest accomplishment may be having finally destroyed Americans' belief in god.

God bless Donald Trump!

 

[Swerd]

If you look at its trajectory, it really took off during W Bush's administration in the early to mid 2000's. Almost looks to coincide with the invasion of Iraq, not surprising since that wasn't the most popular war yet the evangelicals were loving it.

Good point. I personally know two people, regular church goers, who quit just as you described. They couldn't stand a preacher's demands that their congregation support the Iraq invasion.

Of course, my earlier point still stands because no invasion of Iraq would have happened if the USSR had remained the designated enemy. Instead, we substituted Muslims for Communists .

 

[Out-Of-Phase]

"His greatest accomplishment may be having finally destroyed Americans' belief in god."
"His greatest accomplishment may be having finally restored Americans' belief in god."

They are both the same and they are both nonsense.