E

el espectro

Audioholic Intern
Have you considered PSB B25's???
They were actually the very first speaker I tried. I was not thrilled with them, the mid-range seemed sort of muddy to me, and they also seemed to lack some high end detail . . . BUT, like I said they were the first ones I tried. I didn't really have a grasp on what I was listening for (I'm new to good speakers). I may check them out again.
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
For most people, a speaker will sound fairly harsh and fatiguing if it has a flat frequency response above ~10kHz
Thats interesting. If a speaker has a flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz you should be hearing exactly what the what the recording engineers meant you to. I know that not all recordings are equal, but I doubt that these engineers mean for you to have a poor listening experience.

On top of that, those that have done the research in controlled blind a/b test conditions found that 'most people' like a flat response across the spectrum. I suspect that at least some of those that claim a speaker with a flat frequency response is harsh, have issues with room reflection that they blame on the speaker.

Not all speakers are equal and, no doubt, some speakers with a flat response are harsher than others. I don't yet understand the details of why that is, but from my listening experiences, I do know that there is more than flat response to speaker sound quality.

I've listened to several different speakers with a flat response and quite like the sound. Now, that was auditioning in sound rooms that were specifically set up to make the speakers sound their best, so it will be interesting to see what happens when I bring one of these speakers into my plaster covered concrete apartment.

Fred
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
Thats interesting. If a speaker has a flat response from 20Hz to 20kHz you should be hearing exactly what the what the recording engineers meant you to. I know that not all recordings are equal, but I doubt that these engineers mean for you to have a poor listening experience.

On top of that, those that have done the research in controlled blind a/b test conditions found that 'most people' like a flat response across the spectrum. I suspect that at least some of those that claim a speaker with a flat frequency response is harsh, have issues with room reflection that they blame on the speaker.

Not all speakers are equal and, no doubt, some speakers with a flat response are harsher than others. I don't yet understand the details of why that is, but from my listening experiences, I do know that there is more than flat response to speaker sound quality.

I've listened to several different speakers with a flat response and quite like the sound. Now, that was auditioning in sound rooms that were specifically set up to make the speakers sound their best, so it will be interesting to see what happens when I bring one of these speakers into my plaster covered concrete apartment.

Fred
I'm referring to the same listening tests I believe you're implying, those done by Floyd Toole. He determined that people do indeed enjoy a flat frequency response, but what most people perceive to be a flat response is slightly rolled off. A rolled off response will be superior for extended listening and be better suited an environment more reverberant than a recording studio control room, such as your home. While it is true that good studio monitors strive for totally flat response, keep in mind that these monitors function as monopoles with a low level of room interaction in the midbass through treble. This means that reflections from the room that arrive at the listening position are few. This decreased additive effect means a flat response won't be as fatiguing as it would be with more room reflections. Secondly, many studios use monitors for their "sound", or coloration. This might mean a non-flat response, harmonic distortion, resonances, or a combination of all of the above. This results in you having no idea what "as intended" really means.

You are right in your intuitions about frequency response not being the end-all for speaker measurements. Indeed, it is only a starting point. I find that Stereophile tends to put out a nice little suite of measurements with their loudspeaker reviews. For me, it is an easy way to glance over a speaker to get an idea of its quality. The marketing department can't fudge the measurements at the third party very easily. :)

As for your apartment, I highly recommend room treatments. The VAST majority of your system's sound is the result of the room-speaker interaction. Buy high quality speakers and treat your room accordingly (this varies with the type of speaker you buy) and you're about 95% of the way there. Buy a high quality amplifier/receiver with low noise, flat response, inaudible distortion, and sufficient power to drive your speakers to levels that you desire, and you're home free. Connect any good source you want, your system will be performing as well as it can.
 
jaxvon

jaxvon

Audioholic Ninja
I have always associated listening fatigue as generally a function of frequency response. Of course room acoustics and off axis response are a factor, as is distortion. For most people, a speaker will sound fairly harsh and fatiguing if it has a flat frequency response above ~10kHz and/or if the tweeter has higher order harmonic distortion present in audible levels. Now, it is hard to find speakers with a controlled rolloff above 10kHz, but it is not hard at all to find speakers with a flat frequency response that can be changed with (preferably) high quality DSP. One example of a low distortion, flat-response speaker is the Ascend CBM-170SE.
This post was out of the context of the thread. I was thinking of listening fatigue as it applied to speakers, all other variables being constant. In that context it makes sense, but in a general sense, pretty useless. Refer to the posts by other members here regarding acoustics, placement, source material, and amplifier clipping for more useful information.
 
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fredk

Audioholic General
Yup, thats the guy. I just couldn't rememger his name. I found a couple of online interviews with him, but have not found the full papers. I would actually like to read a little more of what he wrote. I think some of it used to be on the Harmon website, but I couldn't find any of it.

Actually, its not intuition. I had a chance to a/b two of axioms speakers, the M22+ sub and the M80 and was startled by the difference in sound. They have the same flat response, the same drivers (though not the same configuration, so I was thinking they should have a similar sound. Not so. There was a big difference in how vocals sounded.

When I asked one of the engineers at axiom why they sounded so different his explanation was that the M80 becuase of the number of drivers and how they are wired was much better at producing harmonics we normally hear and it was this that I was noticing.

Its all interesting stuff.

Fred

P.S. I like your sig.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Only two pairs of speakers have ever given me listener fatigue. One was made by Klipsch, the other by Insignia.
 
haraldo

haraldo

Audioholic Warlord
Only two pairs of speakers have ever given me listener fatigue. One was made by Klipsch, the other by Insignia.
Certainly agree on the Klipsch's, also, the treble doesn't sound right to me.... Not natural, but more like something artificial ......
 
R

rcarlton

Audiophyte
Certainly agree on the Klipsch's, also, the treble doesn't sound right to me.... Not natural, but more like something artificial ......
Hold on... The midrange is Klipsch's strength. They are among the most natural sounding speakers I have ever heard. Paul Klipsch designed his speakers to sound as close to the actual concert hall or musical venue as possible. Paul encouraged his employees to attend concerts so they would know what natural was. Hopefully his philosophy still prevails at Klipsch.
 
MUDSHARK

MUDSHARK

Audioholic Chief
In his Heritage series it certainly does. The compromises in the lower series.....well some love em some hate em.
 
R

rcarlton

Audiophyte
Let's make sure we are talking about the same things. Treble is a soprano voice on up in the frequency range. My confusion is that the midrange tends to overlap the treble. All these different definitions:confused:. Bottom line is I politely disagree with your assertion that Klipsch does not do as well with the higher frequencies (treble).

My experience with Klipsch speakers are primarily with the Heritage and Legend speakers. I can't remark about the Reference or Synergy series, nor can I comment on the Palladium series:).
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
It is the Reference series that I have heard, and that are painfully bright.
 
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fmw

Audioholic Ninja
It is the Reference series that I have heard, and that are painfully bright.
No they aren't. Go look at the measurements. There are no peaks in the treble. They are quite flat in their frequency response.
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
No they aren't. Go look at the measurements. There are no peaks in the treble. They are quite flat in their frequency response.
Irrelevant. It is my ears that I trust, not graphs. Buying the Klipsch reference bookshelves was a mistake, they sounded good for a while, then the fatigue set in and they became unlistenable.
 
R

rcarlton

Audiophyte
Irrelevant. It is my ears that I trust, not graphs. Buying the Klipsch reference bookshelves was a mistake, they sounded good for a while, then the fatigue set in and they became unlistenable.
Joe,
I'm beginning to think your room setup or equipment played a role in what you heard. Was there acoustic treatments? Were the speakers toed in? SS or tubes?

The Tractrix horn is a terrific design. I'm sorry the Reference series speakers weren't to your liking.:(
 
J

Joe Schmoe

Audioholic Ninja
Joe,
I'm beginning to think your room setup or equipment played a role in what you heard. Was there acoustic treatments? Were the speakers toed in? SS or tubes?

The Tractrix horn is a terrific design. I'm sorry the Reference series speakers weren't to your liking.:(
Every pair of speakers requires experimenting with placement/toe-in. The room and electronics remained constant between the Klipsch and other speakers that I liked better. (The electronics have changed since then, but I am not inclined to try Klipsch again, especially as I am 100% satisfied with my current CA speakers.)
 

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