listener fatigue

[el espectro]

I have checked out many brands in my area, and like the KEF IQ3's a lot. BUT, I feel like I was getting some listening fatigue out of them. It may have been because they were the last of three tests in a row at the same store that day, who knows. I'm considering ordering from aperion. If you are familiar with both brands, could you give me an idea as to which one is brighter, or more prone to cause some fatigue? I've heard the KEF's but could you describe the "aerion sound"?

Maybe I'll go back and listen to only the KEF's for a little while. For what it's worth, the store also said that they hadn't had the KEF's that long and that they may not be broken in.

I'm open to other suggestions for bookshelves in the less bright, less fatiguing 400-700$$ price range

 

[Davemcc]

I didn't find the KEF fatiguing at all, almost dull infact. Other suggestions I've heard in that range that are not likely to be fatiguing are the Energy C-series, Epos M5, Focal.JMLabs Chorus 706V, Castle Richmond 3i (IIRC), heck almost any British brand. Then there is my personal favorite, the Era D4.

Also, before you buy into the speaker break in story, read this:http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction

 

[Jey Jockey]

If you feel any sense of fatigue due to brightness, forward sounding speakers, stay away! I listen to extended periods of music and cannot tolerate forward/brightness in my system. some folks call it "detailed" etc, I call it BS. There are alot of "bright" speakers out there, I know, I have gone through 3 sets of speakers in 2.5 years and am waiting for my 4th set. Some are much worse than others, but there are speakers available that are not bright, one just needs to find the one that suits you, this is critical...what sounds great to me, may sound like crap to you.

May i suggest you take music with you for audition that you know very well and contains those ugly moments on a track that makes you cringe, i.e. a poorly recorded flute, trumpet or other high pitched instrument including vocals. I would also suggest that you take a disc that you know sounds horrible and see how it sounds on the speakers being auditioned.

Good luck and take your time.

P.S>...........stay away from sales people who are saying things like they are not broken in or don't have the "good" cables.......all complete BS..walk..no, run away.

 

[rded]

Some people believe that listening fatigue is caused by poor cross over and/or Metallic tweeters. You may wanna look for soft dome tweeter speakers. Dynaudio and Sonus Faber are a few brands that offer this but you may wanna up your budget to 1k to get a pair of monitors. Try the Audience line of Dynaudio- if there are dealers by you. Another speaker that I found not fatiguing but has a metallic tweeter is Revel. Try and listen to these as well

 

[j_garcia]

Metalic tweeters have nothing to do with it.

 

[Seth=L]

Crossover, placement, source material, and room acoustics determine "listener fatigue". Also, if the amplifier powering the speakers is not operating optimally the speakers may become harsh or unpleasant to listen to. Giving your speakers ample power will cut down on listener fatigue.

 

[el espectro]

Thanks for the feedback, and the recommendations. I've been taking my own music with me, but generally the well recorded stuff. I'll have to bring some "crap" with me too just to see what happens. Although I think I'll still opt for my good recordings sounding great, than to sacrifice them in the interest of "forgiving speakers" to please my bad recordings, of which I have plenty. A speaker that lives right in the middle would be great!!Thanks for the other speaker suggestions too. I'm on vacation for the next few days, so guess where I'll be . . .

 

[fredk]

I think that things like fatigue and brightness have a personal element to them as well. I will be buying speakers that some here have found to be both and yet, to me, they are clean and transparent.

I spent an extended 3 hour session listening to these and a couple of other speakers loving every minute.

On the other hand, one of the subs I checked out I found quite fatiguing withing minutes, yet others loved this sub.

Go back and audition just the Kefs for an extended period of time and see how you like them. That will take other factors out of the equation.

Fred

 

[haraldo]

Go Danish!

Check out any Dynaudio speaker that may fit your bill, I generally prefer the ones with bass drivers no more than 6.5", they seem to be quicker to me.

I have been impressed by every single Dynaudio speaker that I have heard, you should definitely check them out.... The better amps to drive them, the better......

Brightness may come from any part of the rig.......

 

[gus6464]

Placement plays a big part in how a speaker sounds. When I got my Ikon 2 they were bright out of the box but after playing with placement I realized that I had them toed-in slightly and Dali does not recommend this. I shifted them outward a tiny bit and the change was immediate with the brightness disappearing completely. I used to think that metal domes were brighter than others but after owning Mirage and Epos speakers with metal domes I have found that it is all a myth.

 

[tom67]

Bright speakers

I have always been intrigued by the subject..I have been with people listening to live music with excellent trumpet and other strident brass and they seem to love it. The same people seem to hate a very good reproduction of similar music at home with a set of speakers like Klipsch Cornwalls which produce highs well.....it occurs to me that it might be an advantage to have speakers capable of producing good highs and simply use your tone controls if you are not in the mood. I have an old set of Polks which are pleasant "pounders" and can make the Cornwalls sound similar if I choose. I prefer the full range..

 

[el espectro]

I have always been intrigued by the subject..I have been with people listening to live music with excellent trumpet and other strident brass and they seem to love it. The same people seem to hate a very good reproduction of similar music at home with a set of speakers like Klipsch Cornwalls which produce highs well.....it occurs to me that it might be an advantage to have speakers capable of producing good highs and simply use your tone controls if you are not in the mood. I have an old set of Polks which are pleasant "pounders" and can make the Cornwalls sound similar if I choose. I prefer the full range..

Yes, it's interesting how different people respond to different tones/frequencies. I can get a decent amount of fatigue at a jazz show in person. So even if I would get a set of speakers that PERFECTLY reproduced real life, I'd have problems.

I went back and listened to the KEF's again, and I loved how warm they are, but I felt they were lacking in some higher end detail . . . something I can't live without when I listen to electronic music. While the KEFs are great for great for jazz, particularly horns, it's great, I don't think they're the over all speaker for me. The KEF's also seemed to have somewhat ill defined stereo imaging, perhaps due to wider dipersion.

I've decided that I'd rather the most detailed speaker I can get in my price range (with perhaps a bit of warmth), even if I get a little fatgued. I'd rather be blown away for an hour than listen for three hours. I can always tone down the teble when I need to, as another poster suggested. I'll continue to audtion and see what happens.

 

[haraldo]

Do they sell System Audio where you live?
These are Danish, incredibly quick and very detailed
http://www.system-audio.com/

No harshness here, lot of details......

 

[fredk]

Cool, sounds like you are on your way to finding the right speaker for you.

It took me a while to get a handle on what all the terms people were using meant.

Give Paradigm Studios a listen, and if you can find someone near you, Axiom M80s. I'm sure there are a number of other detailed speakers out there, but these are two brands I have listened to.

Fred

 

[el espectro]

Do they sell System Audio where you live?
These are Danish, incredibly quick and very detailed
http://www.system-audio.com/

No harshness here, lot of details......

Nope, but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Guangui]

Have you considered PSB B25's???

 

[jaxvon]

I have always associated listening fatigue as generally a function of frequency response. Of course room acoustics and off axis response are a factor, as is distortion. For most people, a speaker will sound fairly harsh and fatiguing if it has a flat frequency response above ~10kHz and/or if the tweeter has higher order harmonic distortion present in audible levels. Now, it is hard to find speakers with a controlled rolloff above 10kHz, but it is not hard at all to find speakers with a flat frequency response that can be changed with (preferably) high quality DSP. One example of a low distortion, flat-response speaker is the Ascend CBM-170SE.

 

[haraldo]

I have always associated listening fatigue as generally a function of frequency response. Of course room acoustics and off axis response are a factor.....

Listening to a range of different Audio Physic speakers at a high-end store (Hooked up to a Burmester 001 CD Player and double 956 Power amps) , I never ever perceived anything remotely like harshness, the auditions included the previous iterations of Spark, Virgo and Avanti.... All of the speakers equipped with some sort of ring radiator, that's certainly got no rolloff in the 10KHz - 30KHz range. Even on some recording with much treble, like some of the songs from Leftfield, it was smooth as silk, but still very detailed.

I am wondering if much of the harshness may be attributed to some kind of phase-shifts, if you have a very sharp rolloff in the upper tweeter band, you may get quite significant phaseshifts even below the upper treble.
Like the "brickwall" analog filter in some CD players that has incredibly sharp filtering above 20KHz. Accoring to measurments that I have seen such filters may induce significant phaseshifts as low as 1 - 2 KHz.

Some CD players provide softer filters that rolls off the upper treble to reduce the amount of phaseshifts (Like the Ayre players)
Could it be that the rolloff of treble in some speakers may provide for something similar..... Or am I way way off into noman's land here

 

[jaxvon]

Listening to a range of different Audio Physic speakers at a high-end store (Hooked up to a Burmester 001 CD Player and double 956 Power amps) , I never ever perceived anything remotely like harshness, the auditions included the previous iterations of Spark, Virgo and Avanti.... All of the speakers equipped with some sort of ring radiator, that's certainly got no rolloff in the 10KHz - 30KHz range. Even on some recording with much treble, like some of the songs from Leftfield, it was smooth as silk, but still very detailed.

I am wondering if much of the harshness may be attributed to some kind of phase-shifts, if you have a very sharp rolloff in the upper tweeter band, you may get quite significant phaseshifts even below the upper treble.
Like the "brickwall" analog filter in some CD players that has incredibly sharp filtering above 20KHz. Accoring to measurments that I have seen such filters may induce significant phaseshifts as low as 1 - 2 KHz.

Some CD players provide softer filters that rolls off the upper treble to reduce the amount of phaseshifts (Like the Ayre players)
Could it be that the rolloff of treble in some speakers may provide for something similar..... Or am I way way off into noman's land here

After looking at the Stereophile measurements of some of those speakers, it does not surprise me that you found them pleasant to listen to. The upper end models have fairly low cabinet resonance when compared to most mass market speakers, they frequency response is flat on axis and controlled off, and the drivers are pretty much free of resonances. And if you have limited hearing about 15kHz anyway, then the flat response out to 20kHz won't bother you.

 

[haraldo]

After looking at the Stereophile measurements of some of those speakers, it does not surprise me that you found them pleasant to listen to. The upper end models have fairly low cabinet resonance when compared to most mass market speakers, they frequency response is flat on axis and controlled off, and the drivers are pretty much free of resonances. And if you have limited hearing about 15kHz anyway, then the flat response out to 20kHz won't bother you.

There's two more thing that's probably important:
they're using some Seas aluminum midranges that may have quite rough breakup... Audio Physic claim that the Active Cone Damping that's in the drivers almost eliminate this ringing, and as a result of that they may use much simpler crossovers... I guess this works
If you knock on the Avanti or Virgo cabinets.... The only sound you will hear is you own screams, darn.... the cabinets are like a solid block of wood.... and the finish