Listened to B&W 805S speakers today

[Joe Schmoe]

some people don't mind living with a phantom center and I've heard a few say that they even prefer it.

True enough. For me, using a center identical to my mains is physically impossible, and none of the "matching" centers actually do provide an exact timbre match. Under these circumstances, phantom center sounds noticeably better because it is the only option that gives a seamless front soundstage.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this if by "a high quality amp" you mean one of the known "audiophile" brands such as McIntosh, Krell, etc. It has been shown time and again that speakers will sound the same with any good amp - and by "good" I mean in the electrically stable and enough power for the purpose sense not the audiophile one.

Just because a speaker costs a lot doesn't mean that the electronics that drive them also have to.

I have always thought that the preamp has a much bigger impact on SQ than the amp. After all, it has more opportunity to effect the signal.

 

[mazersteven]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this if by "a high quality amp" you mean one of the known "audiophile" brands such as McIntosh, Krell, etc. It has been shown time and again that speakers will sound the same with any good amp - and by "good" I mean in the electrically stable and enough power for the purpose sense not the audiophile one.

Just because a speaker costs a lot doesn't mean that the electronics that drive them also have to.

I don't think he was talking about having to purchase a McIntosh, or Krell. But a nice Parasound Halo, Bryston, Rotel, Anthem amp would be nice.

 

[Warpdrv]

I don't think he was talking about having to purchase a McIntosh, or Krell. But a nice Parasound Halo, Bryston, Rotel, Anthem amp would be nice.

I read it the same way.... A High quality amp to me means middle of the road with a good Toroidal Power Supply, where some receivers will strain to achieve driving those really nice speakers in to clipping... Producing more headroom... as well as sound quality, but we aren't talking about huge towers here either or a large 5.1 setup, and depending on listening habits of the OP, it could go either way... A good quality receiver could work just fine here...

gus, do you listen at moderate levels, or do you like to crank them up loud (ref levels)..?

BTW... Great Choice on the beautiful Dali's I drool over the pics of the Helicon's and Euphonia line from Dali... Have yet to ever hear them though...

 

[gus6464]

I read it the same way.... A High quality amp to me means middle of the road with a good Toroidal Power Supply, where some receivers will strain to achieve driving those really nice speakers in to clipping... Producing more headroom... as well as sound quality, but we aren't talking about huge towers here either or a large 5.1 setup, and depending on listening habits of the OP, it could go either way... A good quality receiver could work just fine here...

gus, do you listen at moderate levels, or do you like to crank them up loud (ref levels)..?

BTW... Great Choice on the beautiful Dali's I drool over the pics of the Helicon's and Euphonia line from Dali... Have yet to ever hear them though...

I would say it depends on the mood I am in but for the most part I don't usually crank the volume super loud. We tested them on an $800 150w 2ch NAD amp, don't know if it was integrated pre-amp or what but it wasn't too fancy. For right now I am probably going to go with the Onkyo 805 since its only going to be 2 speakers and sub for a while and maybe a center. Once we move into a house and I get my home theater room I want to upgrade to better towers (higher end helicons or euphonia probably) and by then I will for sure upgrade to an Anthem P5 or Sunfire 5400.

Another speaker we checked out were the Ikon 2's which to us sounded better than the Dynaudio Focal 140's for $700 less. We really wanted to listen to the Euphonia MS4 but the dealer didn't have any for us to audition.

 

[Warpdrv]

It sounds to me that you have covered all your bases and thought everything out, even for the future... Thats great... If your going to upgrade later to the larger speaks in the future, I don't see any reason that you couldn't incorporate those Mentor 2's as surround speakers, Unless your worried about asthetics....

 

[mazersteven]

Hey if you like those "Ribbon" tweeters. You might like these.

http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=13909

 

[PENG]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this if by "a high quality amp" you mean one of the known "audiophile" brands such as McIntosh, Krell, etc. It has been shown time and again that speakers will sound the same with any good amp - and by "good" I mean in the electrically stable and enough power for the purpose sense not the audiophile one.

Just because a speaker costs a lot doesn't mean that the electronics that drive them also have to.

I did not mean an audiophile brand such as Krell. I meant a Parasound, Rotel, Adcom etc., as long as they get you >200WPC, or 300WPC stable into 4 ohms. Yes, as others said, a Bryston, Anthem or Parasound Halo would be nice too. It is also not a bad idea to opt for a Mac, Krell, Classe etc., from the used market.

I do wonder whether one will get the best out of those B&Ws 803S or D with anything less than something like a Rotel class AB amp.

 

[mike c]

people forget that the premise "any two well designed amps should sound the same"
DOES NOT include ALL receivers. granted, if a receiver was THX Ultra certified, it's amp section may be up to par.

but most receivers just don't have enough juice for: speakers that dip to 4 ohms, full towers, high SPL requirements, or whatever ...

 

[PENG]

people forget that the premise "any two well designed amps should sound the same"
DOES NOT include ALL receivers. granted, if a receiver was THX Ultra certified, it's amp section may be up to par.

but most receivers just don't have enough juice for: speakers that dip to 4 ohms, full towers, high SPL requirements, or whatever ...

I do agree, but the problem is, how do we define "well designed"? Also, well designed does not always imply well built (again, what is well built?), so the argument can go on forever. To play it safe, I won't go with anything less than the likes of Outlaw, Rotel, Adcom, Parasound, NAD and comparable amps. The designers and maufacturers of amps in that price range have less compromises to make. They can afford higher grade components, better power supplies, better wiring and shielding, resulting in audio specifications that are less dependent on the impedance, efficiency,frequency response, crossovers, sensitivity, and other characteristics of loudspeakers; and are more likely able to take advantage of higher resolution speakers such as the B&W 800 series, Paradigm Sig series, Polkaudio LSI series, and many other comparable mid to high end speakers.

 

[AdrianMills]

people forget that the premise "any two well designed amps should sound the same"
DOES NOT include ALL receivers. granted, if a receiver was THX Ultra certified, it's amp section may be up to par.

but most receivers just don't have enough juice for: speakers that dip to 4 ohms, full towers, high SPL requirements, or whatever ...

Yes, of course in theory I agree with you but I'm starting to think that someone would have to be a total incompetent to design/build an amp that can be differentiated in a BT and in fact I've yet to hear of it done in controlled conditions no matter how crap the amp in question.

Almost every receiver will handle an average load from an average speaker at average SPLs but few people really expect a bargain basement $100 receiver to be able to drive large low impedance speakers well in demanding situations. However, I absolutely think that people totally underestimate the ability of quality low/mid range receivers in this regard. You also have to remember that most people do not have large dedicated home theaters to fill with sound or even listen at any where near reference levels. Yes, if you do then you have to buy a big ol hunkin amp but for average Joe, no, actually, I don’t think so.

 

[mike c]

I tried it on very sensitive 8ohm full towers.
2600 cu.ft. sealed room (no furniture to absorb sound)

the rx-v640 (500USD during it's time), HK3480 (300 bucks, but is rated 120wpc at 8ohms, and 150wpc at 4 ohms) were both trounced by adding an external amp.

I equalized levels using an SPL meter.

 

[AdrianMills]

I tried it on very sensitive 8ohm full towers.
2600 cu.ft. sealed room (no furniture to absorb sound)

the rx-v640 (500USD during it's time), HK3480 (300 bucks, but is rated 120wpc at 8ohms, and 150wpc at 4 ohms) were both trounced by adding an external amp.

I equalized levels using an SPL meter.

I'm absolutely amazed how often people say things like this when time and time again it's been shown that sighted comparisons are totally unreliable. Besides that, it's also accepted that SPL meters are not accurate enough to level match components for comparisons like this.

 

[mike c]

I'm absolutely amazed how often people say things like this when time and time again it's been shown that sighted comparisons are totally unreliable. Besides that, it's also accepted that SPL meters are not accurate enough to level match components for comparisons like this.

if I understand what you are saying, it's that both the units I mentioned you say sound exactly the same as any external amp that's well built and designed?

 

[AdrianMills]

if I understand what you are saying, it's that both the units I mentioned you say sound exactly the same as any external amp that's well built and designed?

Yes, they should as long as they do not clip and remain stable with the load presented to them. As I've said, I've yet to see a controlled test show any different but if you have or anyone else for that matter I'd be very interested in reading about it. And yes, I guess there will be exceptions but we're talking general rules of thumb here.

And don't get me wrong; I fully buy into the HT/Audio/video craze and I'm a sucker for nice equipment - I've just ordered an overkill 500W@8ohm Bel Canto monoblock for crying out loud - but I do it with the full knowledge that it won't improve the sound I hear.

 

[MACCA350]

We brought one of her cds to test it out and she was excited. She said she could listen to the different layers of the song that she had never heard before (she has a way better ear then me when it comes to music).

What CD did you use for the demo's?

cheers

 

[mike c]

Yes, they should as long as they do not clip and remain stable with the load presented to them. As I've said, I've yet to see a controlled test show any different but if you have or anyone else for that matter I'd be very interested in reading about it. And yes, I guess there will be exceptions but we're talking general rules of thumb here.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here but:

do you have the schematics of both the units I mentioned?
do you know what power supply they installed?
or how many capacitors?

I'm already telling you that these two units do not handle 90-100db peaks very well. or even a 6 ohm bookshelf?
how about this, instead of me trying to prove TO YOU what I heard, how about you prove TO ME that I'm hearing things between these units. whoever has the differing opinion has the burden of proof.

you are saying that a similarly priced HK3480 and a Behringer A500 (both retails for 200-300 bucks; 300 over here)handles loads the same? the 3480 has to match the price of the behringer, but have to add, a tuner, video switching, audio switching, all that fancy case and lights, dsp for their vmax and you say they will handle loads the same?

I'm sorry but, you can't tell me I was hearing things without providing proof, or even personal experience. it goes both ways.

 

[mike c]

I'm absolutely amazed how often people say things like this when time and time again it's been shown that sighted comparisons are totally unreliable. Besides that, it's also accepted that SPL meters are not accurate enough to level match components for comparisons like this.

when has it been shown that these receivers are very stable to 4 or 6 ohms?

I'm absolutely amazed how you can conclude that I'm hearing things and then provide no proof except for saying something like "the truth is out there".

 

[AdrianMills]

I'm not trying to pick a fight here but:

do you have the schematics of both the units I mentioned?
do you know what power supply they installed?
or how many capacitors?

I'm already telling you that these two units do not handle 90-100db peaks very well. or even a 6 ohm bookshelf?
how about this, instead of me trying to prove TO YOU what I heard, how about you prove TO ME that I'm hearing things between these units. whoever has the differing opinion has the burden of proof.

you are saying that a similarly priced HK3480 and a Behringer A500 (both retails for 200-300 bucks; 300 over here)handles loads the same? the 3480 has to match the price of the behringer, but have to add, a tuner, video switching, audio switching, all that fancy case and lights, dsp for their vmax and you say they will handle loads the same?

I'm sorry but, you can't tell me I was hearing things without providing proof, or even personal experience. it goes both ways.

No, I'm not at all saying that they handle all loads the same but I am saying that when they are operating within their normal operating range any differences will (in all probability) be below the threshold of audibility.

And, for what it's worth, as you are the one claiming differences in sound do exist the onus of proof is on you.

I'm actually surprised that an audioholics member with as many posts as you is maintaining such a position when there are countless threads with many links and many articles that support my position as opposed to yours which is the usual anecdotal, "I heard it so it's there." ~shurg~

 

[AdrianMills]

when has it been shown that these receivers are very stable to 4 or 6 ohms?

I'm absolutely amazed how you can conclude that I'm hearing things and then provide no proof except for saying something like "the truth is out there".

Actually the truth is out there, in a lot of places including this site.

It has been shown that sighted listening tests are worthless when attempting to determine differences between equipment.

It has also been shown time and again that amps (in receivers or not) will sound identical in the very vast majority of normal situations.

You ask about 4 and 6 ohm loads and yet you claim you heard a difference on nominal 8 ohm speakers which shouldn't be difficult to drive at all. What is the point if you are using your 8ohm speaker/amp difference as an example to prove your argument?