Adam

Adam

Audioholic Jedi
Yup, I'm going back to 5th grade.
I wish that I could do that! I'd finally dominate at kick ball. Or, at least, maybe not get picked last. Maybe. Oh, the painful memories. Darn my chubby younger years.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Once again, here we go. While this is very true at audio frequencies, but at radio frequencies is not. Almost 20 years ago, Cyril Bateman demonstrated that a SS amp output through a common speaker cable to a common loudspeaker can ring or even oscillate at radio frequencies.

The links to these articles move around.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> Cyril Bateman Articles
Electronics World Magazine

Measuring Speaker Cables: 1 Cyril Bateman Dec 1996 p925
Measuring Speaker Cables: 2 Cyril Bateman Jan 1997 p52
Measuring Speaker Cables: 3 Cyril Bateman Feb 1997 p119




<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->
I just don't see this being an issue on any well designed, bandwidth limited amplifier that has a zobel network on the output stage. Also if the speaker cable is terminated it's even of less of a concern.

Now if your dealing with a high gain mic preamp that can be an issue with stability if the cable isn't terminated and you also have to worry about the triboelectric effect.

See our article on Cable Distortion & Dielectric Biasing:
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/cable-distortion-and-dielectric-biasing-debunked
 
Last edited by a moderator:
bears_t2

bears_t2

Junior Audioholic
I know how ya feel Adam.. I did not start feeling cool till at least the 8th grade.. Till then I was a dork LOL.... Thanks for the memories
 
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
Yes they are very technical papers.

The one to read is:
Bateman, Speaker Amp Interaction:

This is an O-scope photo of a common British audio system oscillating at radio frequencies.

burst.jpg
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...

The speed of the bass on my speakers is unchanged going from Bluejeans to Kimber ;)
I am so glad it didn't turn into a tweeter all of a sudden, magically. ;) :D
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Yes they are very technical papers.

The one to read is:
Bateman, Speaker Amp Interaction:

This is an O-scope photo of a common British audio system oscillating at radio frequencies.

View attachment 12857
I will try to find the time to read this after XMAS. However, there is a difference between RF ingress and amplifier oscillation. This seems to be the case of a not so well designed amplifier oscillating b/c of improper feedback and/or bandwidth limiting, bad shielding, etc.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Regarding RF Ingress into an Amplifier

[/COLOR]

It’s been proposed by some folks on this thread that speaker cables can act as an antenna at radio frequencies and ingress RFI into an audio amplifier. I emailed Emotiva about this topic to get their thoughts since they not only design and sell amplifiers but they test and field service them on a huge scale and have vast experiences to share if this truly is a concern.

Response #1 from Design Engineer Ray Dennison:
If anything, an amp that is close to the edge on stability is MORE likely to oscillate with a shielded speaker cable because you are adding a lot of additional capacitance. I can't speak for any possible amplifier design that is out there, but RF is generally unlikely to enter the amp from the output terminals at any significant level.

Response #2 from VP/CTO Lonnie Vaughn
In general this would never happen. However, there are some cases where an ultrasonic frequency can get into the system and the most likely place is the input. But the end result even if it does shouldn't amount to anything appreciable and I will tell you why.

Let's give a worst case scenario. Off line switching power supplies typically operate in the realm of 60kHz to 200Khz and given the high voltage and potential current flowing through it, they do emit EMI radiation. Now having said that, the amount of EMI they are allowed to emit is pretty low so your interconnects would have to be laid right on top of the darn thing. But let’s say for the sake of the discussion you did and now you have this ultrasonic frequency passing through the amp that is actually within the bandwidth of most high quality amps. So what happens? Well, the amp will do what it was designed to do and multiply the signal level.

But so what if it does. The reactance of a conventional driver shows us that as the frequency goes up, so does the impedance. In fact, the impedance rises at an exponential rate, so by the time you get to the offending frequency it is going to be at some crazy high level. As you know, when the impedance goes up, then current goes down. So even if it was present, there wouldn't be enough current flowing through the voice coil to even overcome the stiffness of the suspension in the tweeter, let alone do any damage.


As you can see, it's not very likely that RFI would interject into an amplifier from a cable, especially if the amplifier is properly designed with feedback, bandwidth limiting, etc. Also, once the cable is terminated with a speaker load, it's even of less concern.




<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->
 
Last edited by a moderator:
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
OK now this just makes me question the credibility of the whole book based on this very topic. The author doesn't recognize that TL effects of speaker cables are negligible and completely swamped out by insertion loss effects of resistance far before the cable lengths become long enough to be of concern.

At 20kHz, the 1/4 wavelength is 3,750 meters. I don't know of any speaker cable runs that long :) and insertion loss would certainly kill you before TL effects even matter.
Gene went straight to the big (Emotiva) guns to get some info on this debate!

Concerning the chapter on TL effects, when I have some time, I will try to find my copy of this book and report back on what he has to say on the matter.

If it's in print then it must be true :eek:
Just like if it's on the interwebz then it must be true;)

The author does have some reasonable credentials:
[h=3]Biography[/h] Bob Cordell is an electrical engineer who has been deeply involved in audio for over four decades. He began his career at Bell Laboratories where he designed integrated circuits and fiber optic communications systems. Bob is a prolific designer of amplifiers, audio test equipment, loudspeakers and other audio gear. He was the first to publish and demonstrate a power amplifier design combining vertical power MOSFETs with error correction, achieving unprecedented distortion levels of less than 0.001% at 20 kHz in 1983. He has published articles on power amplifier design in the popular press and in the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. Bob is a member of the JAES Review Board and he maintains an audiophile website at CordellAudio.com - Home.
 
tmurnin

tmurnin

Full Audioholic
Wow - and I'm supposed to be the overly sensitive one? Dare to criticize your support of a ridiculously overpriced power cord and suddenly I'm someone who would never support the site or spend any money? Glad to hear you don't give a rat's *ss about people who dare to question your opinion! I take it all back!! I'm replacing all my cords with $1200 power cables right away! I only pray that Kimber will ship via overnight so I don't have to put up with this horrific inferior sound one more day!
 
D

Dster

Audiophyte
Wow - and I'm supposed to be the overly sensitive one? Dare to criticize your support of a ridiculously overpriced power cord and suddenly I'm someone who would never support the site or spend any money? Glad to hear you don't give a rat's *ss about people who dare to question your opinion! I take it all back!! I'm replacing all my cords with $1200 power cables right away! I only pray that Kimber will ship via overnight so I don't have to put up with this horrific inferior sound one more day!
Hi, my name is Reading Comprehension. I don't believe we have met.
:eek:
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Cordell and TL

OK now this just makes me question the credibility of the whole book based on this very topic. The author doesn't recognize that TL effects of speaker cables are negligible and completely swamped out by insertion loss effects of resistance far before the cable lengths become long enough to be of concern.

At 20kHz, the 1/4 wavelength is 3,750 meters. I don't know of any speaker cable runs that long :) and insertion loss would certainly kill you before TL effects even matter.
The book has about 4 paragraphs on the subject, I will summarize:

He starts out by saying that speaker cables are usually misterminated. In particular, misterminated at high frequencies where reflections would matter most. (I don't know that I quite believe this or understand what he is trying to tell us).

He goes on to say that most speaker cables have a characteristic impedance Zo between 50-150ohms. (I think this is the heart of his opinion) TL effects are unlikely to matter much in the freqs in the audio band, but they can cause load impedance variations that can provoke amplifier instability at high freqs.

He goes on to do some math on a 10ft cable and calculates 18Mhz as a freq that could be problematic, above audio amps freq range, but can cause amp output oscillations (if no L-R isolation on the output).

He shows some impedance plots for open, short, and terminated connections, it is obvious that there isn't a problem if cable is properly terminated. He also states that a Zobel network at the far end of the cable is a good idea (even if only 100ohm R and 0.01uF C).

There you have it. I think this all seems pretty reasonable, but I will defer to Gene, et al, for now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
The book has about 4 paragraphs on the subject, I will summarize:

He starts out by saying that speaker cables are usually misterminated. In particular, misterminated at high frequencies where reflections would matter most. (I don't know that I quite believe this or understand what he is trying to tell us).

He goes on to say that most speaker cables have a characteristic impedance Zo between 50-150ohms. (I think this is the heart of his opinion) TL effects are unlikely to matter much in the freqs in the audio band, but they can cause load impedance variations that can provoke amplifier instability at high freqs.

He goes on to do some math on a 10ft cable and calculates 18Mhz as a freq that could be problematic, above audio amps freq range, but can cause amp output oscillations (if no L-R isolation on the output).

He shows some impedance plots for open, short, and terminated connections, it is obvious that there isn't a problem if cable is properly terminated. He also states that a Zobel network at the far end of the cable is a good idea (even if only 100ohm R and 0.01uF C).

There you have it. I think this all seems pretty reasonable, but I will defer to Gene, et al, for now.
<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> It seems pretty reasonable from what your saying.

Basically any properly designed audio amp is severely bandwidth limited at RF frequencies.

Most power amps have a small inductor in series with the output that will normally block any RF from getting in as well. Power amps have a low impedance at audio frequencies, but not for RF because it's well outside the normal bandwidth and can't be mitigated by feedback. Some amps have a small cap (~22pF or so) across the F/B resistor so RF can theoretically get straight back to the input stage where it's demodulated and comes back out at audio frequencies as buzz (TV frame buzz), or sometimes speech/music. That usually needs a lot of RF though!

Also, a Zobel network helps (a bit), but most use a 10 ohm resistor and 100nF cap, and that doesn't match the cable impedance of 'normal' cables (normally around 100 ohms, give or take). It is probably a good idea for speaker manufacturers to add a Zobel in the box as part of the crossover, or ideally right at the speaker terminals.

In order to get a speaker cable with a characteristic impedance of 8 ohms [sqrt(L/C)] would require the cable to have an ungodly amount of capacitance which in itself could cause an amplifier to oscillate. Goertz makes such a cable by sandwiching two flat conductors on top of each other and they put a zobel at the end of it to stabilize the amplifier b/c the capacitance is like 6nf/ft!

I did an article on such a cable long ago here should you care to read it:
Speaker Cable Reviews - Faceoff 2 | Audioholics

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> In further speaker with Emotiva, Ray added the following:
ANY cable that is not driven and terminated with an impedance that matches the impedance of the cable will likely ring. This has nothing to do with RF pickup from the outside world so shielding is not the solution in this case. The shielding does change the characteristic impedance of the cable which means it may ring at a different frequency or level but it will still ring unless the impedance of the cable matches the output and the load. The thing is that no practical audio amplifier is generating high enough slew rates to cause appreciable ringing and what ringing there might be cannot be reproduced by the speakers, nor could you hear it if it could be reproduced.


You see practical application of matched impedances every day with the 75 ohm cable distributing the cable or satellite signal to your DVR. Ringing on these wires would cause extreme degradation of the RF signal. Not because it magically get back into the source device, but because the reflected signals cancel the incoming signal within the cable. The down side of matched impedance is that 50% of the power is consumed in the output termination and 50% in the load. Not a huge deal when you are sending milliwatts of cable signal. Huge deal for an audio power amplifier! <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->
<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
And here we go again!
On 'Characteristic Impedance ' and 'Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance'.
The formula [sqrt(L/C)] is the short cut formula not the complete formula and it only works at radio frequencies (that is above 100kHz or maybe 1mHz).
The audio frequency formula is much more changeling because you have to measure 4 parameters at each frequency in question (these values change with frequency).
When <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->Cyril Bateman did a SPICE model of speaker cable<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]--> he needed to model 200 stages.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
And here we go again!
On 'Characteristic Impedance ' and 'Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance'.
The formula [sqrt(L/C)] is the short cut formula not the complete formula and it only works at radio frequencies (that is above 100kHz or maybe 1mHz).
The audio frequency formula is much more changeling because you have to measure 4 parameters at each frequency in question (these values change with frequency).
When <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->Cyril Bateman did a SPICE model of speaker cable<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]--> he needed to model 200 stages.
At low F we use lumped RLC model.

However at audio frequencies don't matter as I've stated many times in this thread. Sqrt(l/c) is appropriate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Speedskater

Speedskater

Audioholic General
"At low F we use lumped RLC model."

Yes, I agree.

"However at audio frequencies don't matter as I've stated many times in this thread."

Yes, at audio frequencies 'Characteristic Impedance' and 'Transmission Line' calculations don't matter.

"Sqrt(l/c) is appropriate"

Yes, for 'Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance' that short formula is appropriate.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top