Kids and English

[jaxvon]

Is it just me, or have our standards of English gone down considerably in the schools? It seems like most people in my generation don't give a crap about speaking or writing English correctly. If it's not your native language, I can understand, but when children raised here in the US can't put together a cohesive sentence or differentiate between contractions and plural pronouns, I start to worry. The teachers should be worrying too. Why are we letting children pass through the grades with such poor language skills?

I would hypothesize that we have the Internet at least partially to blame. With the advent of instant messaging and e-mail, the conventions of sentence structure, proper spelling, and the expression of ideas and emotions through words (instead of emoticons) are seemingly disappearing. These trends cannot bode well for our society.

I would really like to do something about the problem, but I don't know where to start. If anyone else would like to lend a hand or ideas, I'm all ears.

 

[claudermilk]

It's not just you. I am in total agreement with your post, not sure of a solution though.

My first thought was "is there still a standard?" Sigh, it's really bad when I think that before anything else.

What's worse is the idiots like that unintelligible rap star who ignores English altogether & who the kids think is cool--so they all try and talk like that. Sigh, again.

The little I can do online is insist they type something resembling proper grammar before I'll attempt to answer their question. I know there's more of us doing that; there should be a grammar equivalent of "RTFM."

 

[masak_aer]

I would really like to do something about the problem, but I don't know where to start. If anyone else would like to lend a hand or ideas, I'm all ears.

We can all start from here . Internet is partly to blame as well. Now, when I type emails, i tend to use .. instead of . to end my sentences. Writing a simple sensible sentence I believe is a must. IMHO, kids now tends to abbreviate tons of stuff I hardly can keep up LOL, not to mention all the smileys. Thanks to IM. May be the moderators can start a writing contest for us on any topics just to see how much we can remember from the old school . The winner will get a teaching rights in the English Class thread. Is "Sheep" in the 'kid' category or shall we include him as old guys? Hehehe..He writes pretty good written English, though.

 

[MDS]

I agree Jaxvon and it is one of my pet peeves. We use instant messaging at work to keep in touch because alot of us work remotely (I'm at home for example) and none of my friends and colleagues write in IM speak, other than simple abbreviations like 'thx' and occasionally 'ttyl' (talk to you later). We all write complete sentences, just as if we were talking or giving a presentation. Same for email correspondence.

It does pain me to see such simple mistakes as 'to' instead of 'too', 'your' instead of 'you're' and my all time biggest pet peeve 'loose'. I'll never forget the first time I saw that - it was on a defect that someone wrote for the windowing subsystem that I was working on at the time. The title said 'Container Looses Focus'. There is no concept of 'loose' or 'tight' with focus! Now I see it everywhere and it bothers me.

English is actually hard, but if you were born and educated in the US there is really no excuse. I don't know about other states, but I grew up in FL and we had English drilled into our heads from kindergarten all the way through high school, not to mention that it is still a required subject in the first two years of college.

The number of engineers that can rattle on and on about esoteric technical subjects but can't write a paragraph with proper punctuation and spelling absolutely astounds me.

 

[jaxvon]

We can all start from here . Internet is partly to blame as well. Now, when I type emails, i tend to use .. instead of . to end my sentences. Writing a simple sensible sentence I believe is a must. IMHO, kids now tends to abbreviate tons of stuff I hardly can keep up LOL, not to mention all the smileys. Thanks to IM. May be the moderators can start a writing contest for us on any topics just to see how much we can remember from the old school . The winner will get a teaching rights in the English Class thread. Is "Sheep" in the 'kid' category or shall we include him as old guys? Hehehe..He writes pretty good written English, though.

No offense, but the above is exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for the support though.

Claude, I find myself wondering, "Is there a standard?" as well. I think the crusade to bring back English skills is far more worthy than, say, Hillary Clinton's railing against Rockstar Games for the Easter Egg in GTA San Andreas.

Edit, in response to MDS:

I made myself a good writer by not accepting bad grades in high school. I also went out of my way to take AP English and further enhance my writing skills. At the same time, however, a lot of the kids I graduated with didn't hold themselves to the same standard and the school didn't care.

I use IM a lot too, but in my close group of friends, everyone uses almost all complete sentences, save for the punctuation (the same effect of a "." is achieved by starting a new line of text). I can easily read "IM speak" or 1337, but I'd still rather use normal English as my primary means of communication.

Lastly, I pride myself on being an engineer (in training) that can actually write something competent. Like you, I'm appalled by the number of engineers that couldn't write to save their lives.

*Sigh*. Anyone have any ideas yet about education reform?

 

[masak_aer]

The number of engineers that can rattle on and on about esoteric technical subjects but can't write a paragraph with proper punctuation and spelling absolutely astounds me.

I am an engineer as well as Buckle as far as I know but I believe I know how to write in English (far from perfect, of course). The standard in English language is very simple. All you need is a subject and a verb. FYI, English isn't my first language. That's all it is. If you can't even make one sentence that can fulfill that criteria you fail. Punctuation is hell in the IM world. Many people just forget about punctuations in their sentences and it gives a whole different new meanings. Misunderstanding is common in this world. I'm sure most of us have experience it some way or another. May be, someday they have the automatic grammar corrections in IM just like Word in Microsoft. At least it gives us a hint.


Interesting link:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/z/x/zxz127/docs/AMCIS04Recover.pdf

 

[rgriffin25]

My wife is an educator and I must say that the education system in some cases takes a bum rap. To me it seems odd that the parents are never blamed for anything. I don't care how good the teacher is, if the parents do not do their part it is a hopeless battle. So in addition to holding our teachers accountable something needs to be done to get the parents involved.

Another solution would be to increase funding for our education programs. In some states teacher salaries start around $24,000 a year. It doesn't take a a bachelors degree in math to figure out why most intellegent people opt for other higher paying jobs.

 

[furrycute]

Would anyone still enjoy speaking and writing Victorian English? I never completely understood what Shakespeare was saying, I only understood the jist of what he wrote.

 

[MDS]

The standard in English language is very simple. All you need is a subject and a verb.

It's not so simple. The above quote is two clauses that cannot stand alone.

There are too many rules and exceptions to those rules for English grammar:
- 'i before e except after c' - quite a few exceptions.
- Apostrophes indicate possession, except for cases like 'its' where no apostrophe indicates possession.
- Using apostrophes to indicate plurals - my favorite: CD's. The plural of CD is CDs. Think about spelling it out: 'Compact Discs' - not Compact Disc's.
- Incorrect plurals: 'Attorney Generals' instead of 'Attorneys General'.
- Ending a sentence with a preposition. There is actually a joke to help remember the rule: 'A preposition is not the kind of word to end a sentence with'.
- Improper tense: 'I like to swim, camping, and biking' should be 'I like swimming, camping, and biking'.

Many, many more...trust me, it's not so simple.

 

[sts9fan]

You peeps must have very boring lifes if this is all you have to complain aboot. Honestly do you think people have ever spoken perfect english?? Do you think you would find coal miners in 1900 speaking perfect english? How does this "bode" for society? language is for communication ONLY period. If the point is made then no harm no foul.
There is always going to be variations of the vernacular. There is no way to "attack the problem" because there is no problem.

 

[masak_aer]

The standard in English language is very simple. All you need is a subject and a verb.

It's not so simple. The above quote is two clauses that cannot stand alone.

Many, many more...trust me, it's not so simple.

Probably I should rephrase my sentence . To form a complete sentence all you need a subject and a verb. Now, in the case of making sensible sentence is something else. What you have just explained, of course, is true. When you drill down the grammar of a language, you will find many kind of exceptions which in turn is impossible to memorize for the common people. What we are talking about is, correct me if I'm wrong, kids that can't even write a simple complete and meaningful sentence. We can't expect them to write 100% grammatically correct sentence as we, too, make mistakes. I respect kids who can at least write a meaningful sentence with few grammatical errors than a kid who just put together words without no subjects/verbs.

 

[j_garcia]

Don't get me started... The English and grammar on this board are horrible in many cases. Grammar and spelling are pet peeves of mine. I am guilty of it too; can't get everything right, but some are simply repeated incessantly.

#1: DefinAtely - this word does not exist.

 

[j_garcia]

You're ignorance is scary.

It is YOUR in this case, not you are.

very boring lifes

Lives = plural.

The school system can only do so much. The kids don't WANT to learn. The ones that do, will, but the ones who do not, will continue to find a way skirt along the edge with just enough knowledge to get by. They can speak and read on a basic level, but many couldn't write to save their lives. I agree that the answer is the parents - if you want smart kids, help them learn and help them WANT to learn.

I know guys with PHDs who don't write well. That doesn't mean they aren't smart, it just means writing was not their focus and they don't do it well.

 

[racquetman]

The ones that do, will, but the ones who do not, will continue to find a way skirt along the edge with just enough knowledge to get by.

This sentence is missing a word. Oh, I thought we were playing critique the grammar .

 

[annunaki]

Grammar and vernacular are pet peeves of mine as well. I rarely use abbreviations, even in instant messaging, regardless of who I speak with. If it takes me a bit longer to do, big deal. At least what I had to say could be understood.

Speaking/writing a certain way or with slang is one thing, IF you know how to do it properly. Most kids today do not know how to speak or write properly and THAT is the issue. Teachers almost seem more concerned with being their friends than setting an example and teaching them (today's youth) something.

The issue with wanting to learn could also be another reason why the rich get richer and the middle class and poor get poorer. Though, that is an entirely different bucket of worms.

 

[brian32672]

I know guys with PHDs who don't write well. That doesn't mean they aren't smart, it just means writing was not their focus and they don't do it well.

Clearly you fellows, have way to much time on your hands.
You must realize that there are differences. Certainly on a message/forum board.
I have had enough education, that I can verse myself well (if needed). Lately I have had to deal with lawyers, and I find myself writing rough drafts.
But to complain about what you see on a forum IMO is ludicrous.
Why?????
Well, writing skills, talking skills, and typing skills are all completely different.
I myself am a 1 finger typer (no such word). I constantly find myself trying to keep up my typing with my mind (it rarely works).
However my 'actual' writing skills are on par with a college level of English.

I have seen all of you make mistakes (no-one is left out).
While we are on kids, no offense Jackson. But you are pretty wet behind the ears, same for Brian (no not me). I may be wrong, but I think you are both 18. The reason I quoted Garcia, is for exactly this reason. You and Brian are quite smart; Brian's typing skills are not up to par. But in no way would I judge him for typing badly. I am pretty damn sure he can make coherent sentences and statements.

BTW, for all you of that do not think you make mistakes. I have already seen more edits in each of your posts, than I normally see.
Trust me, you fellows do leave mistakes up. But if you guys have nothing better to do, then so be it.

EDIT:: This also goes for book smart, I happen to have grown up with a few friends that were 'stoners'.
Excellent in school (even prided themselves on this), A+ across the board. Writing skills were also excellent, but they could barely make a logical statement.

 

[Resident Loser]

Don't get me started...

...some folks think speaking like an ill-educated idiot is cool or some such nonsense...so peer pressure certainly plays a part...it gives you street "creds"...

The media plays it up in some cases...have you heard or read some of what passes for English nowadays...even on news programs...not to mention the effect of the "sound-bite" mentality.

My POV is: how can you possibly even think to trust any of the information you might get at this site and others, if the poster proffering said info can barely string a few words together to form a cohesive thought...I'm sorry... as a child of the 50s and a product of various contests and such, "neatness counts"...

And as the saying goes "You only get one chance to make a first impression"...people just don't care...and if you chance to make a correction, it's you who are the problem, just so caught up in your rules and regulations and spelling and punctuation...

It's not just the younger ones; I really wanna' puke when I see some old geezer with a backwards ball-cap talkin' 'bout his "peeps"...Good Lord...

Unfortunately, this sort of thing is only the visible part of the spectrum, the proverbial tip of the iceberg...

jimHJJ(...I have seen the future...I'm glad I'll be dead...)

 

[sts9fan]

Lives = plural

I was kidding

This also goes for book smart, I happen to have grown up with a few friends that were 'stoners'.
Excellent in school (even prided themselves on this), A+ across the board. Writing skills were also excellent, but they could barely make a logical statement.

As a proud educated(Masters in Biochem) stoner I resemble that remark!!
Also I much rather have the world on pot then booze...

 

[rgriffin25]

For me spelling mistakes are more annoying than grammar. Take the word "Bass" for example. I am amazed at how many times it is spelled "Base". I will be the first to admit my spelling isn't always perfect but come on now, an easy word like bass???

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Pet peeves:

The sentence "Not."

TYPING IN THIS MANNER.

Lose vs. loose

Definitely vs. definitaly

There, their, they're

Then and than

Affect vs effect

Would of vs. would have

Using spell check - or not using it!